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Crime & Punishment

 
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Miner Bumping: Discussion & Questions Thread

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Author
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#441 - 2012-12-02 08:15:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Solarius Elrond wrote:
Trin Again wrote:
Solarius Elrond wrote:


LOL, yes you could make a killing, but it would not be good for the game as your posit. What your are describing already happens in Null Sec, the haven of the aggressive player.
Do you think Null Sec could supply all the ore to make the Eve economy viable? Not even Null Sec and all the Wh could substitute for the current miner based production. And what you describe is a universal Null Sec condition for mining. Except in HiSec I can't arm my compatriots or an alt and blow away the bumpers without getting Concorded.

So lets dump concord, make all of Eve low and null sec, or just null sec.

The game would still have a player base....but a much smaller one.

I am certain CCP wants the broadest player base from passive to aggressive they can entice into investing in EVE.

You sound too much like the scorpion that stung the rabbit it was riding across the stream. Both drowned, but the scorpion was only following its nature. I don't resent your point of view, but I can see where it could lead the game.

Holding my breath......


Except you could train an alt to suicide gank competitors, and then need to fuel the economy by buying more ships and this is bad because?

And people buying more ships and fittings is also bad for the game because.


Your response is filled with non sequitur. How bumpers fighting bumpers makes high security into null security is anyone's guess but okay. You seem to think I posited open season on miners, when in fact I suggested opposing bumping groups duking it out for bumping rights in a system. This could include suicide ganking untanked bumping Machariels and SFIs, or simply running interference on group A's bumpers with group B's bumpers. Group B could even - if successful enough at preventing group A from bumping and extorting - rent bumping rights on a weekly or monthly basis.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to the topic at hand, and so I wont reply to it here. But I will say this - getting blown away by Concord is not the worst thing to happen ever. train up a couple of catalyst alts, lose a couple mackinaws, and use your ISBoxer to defend yourself from bumpers.


You miss the point. Most miners want to mine when they are mining. Not be forced to engage in pvp. Your actions and suggestions make mining unprofitable and unenjoyable for the class of player who want to mine. So don't be surprised if mining dimiinishes so drastically there is no economy of supply.You have no idea what skyrocketing prices can do to an economy, especially one dependent on a single source of base supply. People buying ships is not bad for the economy except when they are being used to strangle the source of raw materials. Would you be ablle to afford a thrasher if it cost several billions to buy? How many new players would that drive away? Your attitude would destroy the game you claim you are preserving. Your improvements would be an eventual disaster.

Mining looks to be more unattractive each day so I'll keep my mining characters, unsubbed during the ganking epidemic, offline for now.

Time to run missions.

I had no idea that a few dozen players bumping miners was an economy killing epidemic.
It makes me wonder why the 2.8 trillion isk worth of freighters we've killed didn't have any effect on the market at all~


What I don't understand though is why you mine. You talk about the billions you've invested and all these accounts you have with such a large amount of SP, why not just buy a real ship and go ratting or run missions. You'll make 2-4x as much as you do mining.
Or does being bumped one time screw up your mining bots to badly that you can't make any money?

Also, I want to run hubs when I run hubs. Not be forced to engage in pvp. Cloaking campers and occasional roams through our space make hub ratting unprofitable an unenjoyable for the class of player who wants to rat. You have no idea what a sudden and significant drop in purchasing power can do to an economy. People won't be able to afford to fly ships! Nerf non-consensual nullsec PvP in nullsec PvE areas.



Snipe.








edit:

homeland defense wrote:
Solarius Elrond wrote:
So I stopped mining and unsubbed those characters since they were now dead weight and turned my available game time to PVE with my combat skill trained characters that my miners used to earn plex to pay for.


either miner bumping has reached such a proportion that it's unavoidable in every system in hisec where one can mine, miners are unsubbing because they don't want to move systems or "unsub every time something threatens 99% passive gameplay" is the new Thing


It's the latter. Welcome to the eve-online forums!
Lady Cub
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#442 - 2012-12-02 08:43:56 UTC
Bumping is a Normal Game Mechanic… Most people hear the word Bump and think gentle bumping or pushing, nudge nudge… However, Miners are having Issues where there is a rather large discrepancies in how not just a gentle bump affects another Ship… we are discussing Full Blown Ramming where one Bump pushes a Mack 25 plus km from the Ice/ore… Even if Miner is not AFK and is Spamming the Rock/ICE approach or even orbit does not help in any way manner or forum…

This should not be possible. with Real Life physics.. If 2 cars collide at high speeds they only land a matter of feet away.

Miners are being taken advantage of and have absolutely NO recourse to prevent these malicious exploits of game mechanics. Miners are also being Targeted and suicide ganked in what is supposed to be High Sec. For example: "The New Order" is suicide ganking in Kamio a 0.7 High Security system ICE field. There are no ICE fields in higher security space. They are able to get off 3 cycles in a T3 Talos before getting CONCORDed.

Miners are usually a group of Quite people that mind their own business and Obtain the Minerals needed for Building Industries or trading on Market. These poor folks are being Maliciously targeted Harassed and taken advantage of by those exploiting the broken game mechanics as well as Verbal abuse and Griefing War Declaration usually by one person corps. Most people assume that miners are AFK when in fact they are multi-tasking running Market and Industry.

These people are not only "Bumping" they are Ganking and War Dec using single person corps over and over. Miners have absolutely no recourse as they are not trained for PVP nor Ganking the Gankers.. In Real Life one would call 911 (police) and have them arrest the offenders. There is no game mechanics that allow someone to call in CONCORD or police in game. CONCORD only shows up to destroy the Gankers Ship whether you were defending yourself or the one doing the offending… CONCORD nor the Faction Police keep the peace. The sole purpose of this Bumping / Griefing / War dec / Harassment is to intrude on others game play in the worst way possible as stated by Goonies and the New Order websites and blogs.

Many of the Bumpers / Griefers avoid War dec by folding corps or staying in NPC corps for the sole purpose of harassing other players defeating the game mechanics. Why should a Miner / Industrialist / Trader have to be CONCORDed just to defend himself in High Sec?

Many of these Bumpers / Gankers try to force their role and idea of "fun" game play onto others that hate the drama and not so fun aspects of the game. That is why we have Low Sec and Null Sec. If you like that type of playing go there and stay. I know several quadriplegic that play EVE. They can not PVP. They can and do Mine / Trade / Industry. They use Voice commands to maneuver and control the game. These griefing and harrassments should fall under a violation of the EULA. These are Harassment in it purest form. These are Criminal Cyber Bullying tactics in the USA especially the harmful verbal tactics and foul language in Local. Some of these Tactics fall under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). This game is offered in USA it must be compliant. This means its player base must also be compliant. They have also stated over and over on these forms and in local and on their websites, they want to FORCE Social change through harassment and grieving, This is a direct Violation of EULA and the Laws of the United States of America.

To Be Continued in next Post: "How can we fix the Harassment issues of the broken exploited game mechanics?"
Lady Cub
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#443 - 2012-12-02 08:44:21 UTC
How can we fix the Harassment issues of the broken exploited game mechanics?

1. Make it so that Bumping has less affect on Miners ships.
2. Allow Miners to have CPU / PG to utilize defensive measures.
3. Allow Miners to equip Turrets.
4. Allow Orcas to Mine and equip Turrets. (Full Racks)
5. Make Major Bumping an Aggression equal to outlaws so anyone can attack them without CONCORD.
6. Disallow small corps under 10 members from using the War dec mechanics.
7. Disallow corps from using the War dec mechanics unless they are at least one month old. (including all members joined date.)
8. If a corp Declares a War its members Must Log on and be online actively moving around for a minimum time of lets say, 8- 10 hours average of its members or the War dec devolves.
9. Only Allow a corp to War Dec another Once Per Month unless they agree to be at War.
10. If someone Suicide ganks more than once a month they should be banned from High Sec.
11. If someone suicide ganks while in an NPC corp they will be banned from High Sec immediately.
12. If more than one corp members Suicide ganks in High Sec the entire corp gets banned from High Sec by CONCORD. If any members are in a Station in High Sec, they get arrested and relocated to the nearest Low/Null Sec in a pod.
13. Increase the speed in which Miners can Mine Ore/ICE. No one is going to sit and watch a screen like a zombie for 30 minutes to 5.8 hours waiting for the ship to fill up. Ice Harvester I is 600 seconds Cycle time, which is lowered to a low of 106.55 seconds with level 5 skills and Fleet Boosters. (Most Miners Multi-task running Market and Industry while Mining and do not see Gankers / Bumpers chatting in Local. Most people avoid the drama of Local.)
14. Put ICE in all systems.. In Real Life, ICE is found everywhere in all of outer space and all solar systems. Even our hottest planet Mercury has ICE. (Most Bumping Ganking is ICE focused
15. Make CONCORD attack and pod for foul language in local.
16. Make CONCORD arrive 100x faster.
17. Allow Special Petitions equal to calling 911 (Police) to protect the peace and either fine the offenders 1 billion isk for each offense or ban them from High Sec or the game depending on repeated offense. (Harassment issues should be top priority.)

I am sure my Solutions will cause an uproar from the Bumpers / Gankers / Griefers / Harrassers. Let them shed their tears like they pridefully collect from the harmless innocent Miners / Industrialist / Trader
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#444 - 2012-12-02 09:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Lady Cub wrote:
How can we fix the Harassment issues of the broken exploited game mechanics?

1. Make it so that Bumping has less affect on Miners ships.
2. Allow Miners to have CPU / PG to utilize defensive measures.
3. Allow Miners to equip Turrets.
4. Allow Orcas to Mine and equip Turrets. (Full Racks)
5. Make Major Bumping an Aggression equal to outlaws so anyone can attack them without CONCORD.
6. Disallow small corps under 10 members from using the War dec mechanics.
7. Disallow corps from using the War dec mechanics unless they are at least one month old. (including all members joined date.)
8. If a corp Declares a War its members Must Log on and be online actively moving around for a minimum time of lets say, 8- 10 hours average of its members or the War dec devolves.
9. Only Allow a corp to War Dec another Once Per Month unless they agree to be at War.
10. If someone Suicide ganks more than once a month they should be banned from High Sec.
11. If someone suicide ganks while in an NPC corp they will be banned from High Sec immediately.
12. If more than one corp members Suicide ganks in High Sec the entire corp gets banned from High Sec by CONCORD. If any members are in a Station in High Sec, they get arrested and relocated to the nearest Low/Null Sec in a pod.
13. Increase the speed in which Miners can Mine Ore/ICE. No one is going to sit and watch a screen like a zombie for 30 minutes to 5.8 hours waiting for the ship to fill up. Ice Harvester I is 600 seconds Cycle time, which is lowered to a low of 106.55 seconds with level 5 skills and Fleet Boosters. (Most Miners Multi-task running Market and Industry while Mining and do not see Gankers / Bumpers chatting in Local. Most people avoid the drama of Local.)
14. Put ICE in all systems.. In Real Life, ICE is found everywhere in all of outer space and all solar systems. Even our hottest planet Mercury has ICE. (Most Bumping Ganking is ICE focused
15. Make CONCORD attack and pod for foul language in local.
16. Make CONCORD arrive 100x faster.
17. Allow Special Petitions equal to calling 911 (Police) to protect the peace and either fine the offenders 1 billion isk for each offense or ban them from High Sec or the game depending on repeated offense. (Harassment issues should be top priority.)

I am sure my Solutions will cause an uproar from the Bumpers / Gankers / Griefers / Harrassers. Let them shed their tears like they pridefully collect from the harmless innocent Miners / Industrialist / Trader


Please note this is about bumping.

However as 1 man Corp. Some of your points are will affect my ability to play eve. Post with your main and stop troll post.

If not a troll, your points seems extreme to an almost idiotic level.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#445 - 2012-12-02 09:05:42 UTC
Lady Cub wrote:
This should not be possible. with Real Life physics.. If 2 cars collide at high speeds they only land a matter of feet away.

That's true. I don't know many cars that travel 4 or 5 thousand meters per second, though. Or ones that weigh 20 thousand tons. And even then, the cars take significant damage. Just imagine how much damage your mackinaw would take. I mean, you ask for nerfs to suicide ganking, but real life physics in bumping would create the ultimate suicide gank where a speed-fit Rifter could one-shot a mackinaw or an Orca.

Lady Cub wrote:
Miners are being taken advantage of and have absolutely NO recourse to prevent these malicious exploits of game mechanics.

Sometimes I read an intelligent post from a miner in this thread and it causes me to rethink my viewpoint on miners as a whole. "Perhaps they aren't so bad", I think. "Perhaps there are some that are capable of learning to do something themselves. Perhaps there are a few who are willing to learn."

And then I read a post like yours, and all that goes away again. Miners can't prevent bumps? Please. 30% of this thread has been about how to avoid bumps.

Lady Cub wrote:
Miners are usually a group of Quite people that mind their own business and Obtain the Minerals needed for Building Industries or trading on Market. These poor folks are being Maliciously targeted Harassed and taken advantage of by those exploiting the broken game mechanics as well as Verbal abuse and Griefing War Declaration usually by one person corps.

These people are not only "Bumping" they are Ganking and War Dec using single person corps over and over. Miners have absolutely no recourse as they are not trained for PVP nor Ganking the Gankers.. In Real Life one would call 911 (police) and have them arrest the offenders. There is no game mechanics that allow someone to call in CONCORD or police in game. CONCORD only shows up to destroy the Gankers Ship whether you were defending yourself or the one doing the offending… CONCORD nor the Faction Police keep the peace.
Well, uh, ****. Wardecs from 1-man corps? Deary me, whatever could you do about that? Other than any of the myriad options generally used by high-sec residents to deal with wardecs and suicide gankers, I mean.

Oh! I've got it! You could complain to CCP until they change the mechanic for you because you can't be arsed to do anything yourself!

Lady Cub wrote:
Many of these Bumpers / Gankers try to force their role and idea of "fun" game play onto others that hate the drama and not so fun aspects of the game. That is why we have Low Sec and Null Sec. If you like that type of playing go there and stay. I know several quadriplegic that play EVE. They can not PVP. They can and do Mine / Trade / Industry. They use Voice commands to maneuver and control the game. These griefing and harrassments should fall under a violation of the EULA. These are Harassment in it purest form. These are Criminal Cyber Bullying tactics in the USA especially the harmful verbal tactics and foul language in Local. Some of these Tactics fall under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). This game is offered in USA it must be compliant. This means its player base must also be compliant. They have also stated over and over on these forms and in local and on their websites, they want to FORCE Social change through harassment and grieving, This is a direct Violation of EULA and the Laws of the United States of America.

Heh, I guess I'm fine then. And CCP too, living in Iceland as they do. There's also the fact that it has absolutely nothing to do with the laws of any real world country, is not a violation of the EULA, and is, in fact, a part of the game that CCP claims to have envisioned when they started designing it. Whether or not that vision is still the same, we've yet to see.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#446 - 2012-12-02 09:12:27 UTC
Lady Cub wrote:
How can we fix the Harassment issues of the broken exploited game mechanics?


You appear to have missed the part where no-one has yet proven how bumping is harassment.

Quote:
1. Make it so that Bumping has less affect on Miners ships.
2. Allow Miners to have CPU / PG to utilize defensive measures.
3. Allow Miners to equip Turrets.
4. Allow Orcas to Mine and equip Turrets. (Full Racks)
5. Make Major Bumping an Aggression equal to outlaws so anyone can attack them without CONCORD.
6. Disallow small corps under 10 members from using the War dec mechanics.
7. Disallow corps from using the War dec mechanics unless they are at least one month old. (including all members joined date.)
8. If a corp Declares a War its members Must Log on and be online actively moving around for a minimum time of lets say, 8- 10 hours average of its members or the War dec devolves.
9. Only Allow a corp to War Dec another Once Per Month unless they agree to be at War.
10. If someone Suicide ganks more than once a month they should be banned from High Sec.
11. If someone suicide ganks while in an NPC corp they will be banned from High Sec immediately.
12. If more than one corp members Suicide ganks in High Sec the entire corp gets banned from High Sec by CONCORD. If any members are in a Station in High Sec, they get arrested and relocated to the nearest Low/Null Sec in a pod.
13. Increase the speed in which Miners can Mine Ore/ICE. No one is going to sit and watch a screen like a zombie for 30 minutes to 5.8 hours waiting for the ship to fill up. Ice Harvester I is 600 seconds Cycle time, which is lowered to a low of 106.55 seconds with level 5 skills and Fleet Boosters. (Most Miners Multi-task running Market and Industry while Mining and do not see Gankers / Bumpers chatting in Local. Most people avoid the drama of Local.)
14. Put ICE in all systems.. In Real Life, ICE is found everywhere in all of outer space and all solar systems. Even our hottest planet Mercury has ICE. (Most Bumping Ganking is ICE focused
15. Make CONCORD attack and pod for foul language in local.
16. Make CONCORD arrive 100x faster.
17. Allow Special Petitions equal to calling 911 (Police) to protect the peace and either fine the offenders 1 billion isk for each offense or ban them from High Sec or the game depending on repeated offense. (Harassment issues should be top priority.)


1, Why should it? What's the reason to make this happen?
2. I'm fine with this, but there are already people using mining barges / exhumers for PvP in a limited way.
3. See 2
4. See 2 - the new order has a PvP orca that rolls with us for logistical support, recently killing a frig and a mack. I'd still be fine with more offensive capability, although I don't see how it would address miner bumping.
5. Again, why? How is bumping a bad thing for the game, as opposed to the player.
6 & 7. Any change like this would mean that miners wouldn't be able to wardec James 315 in his one-man corp. Such a change would be completely unfair because some people enjoy rolling in small gangs and you've provided no compelling reason to change it.
7. Why? How does this relate to miner bumping?
8. You want to force people to log in to a game? How does this relate to miner bumping?
9. I can't see how this relates to miner bumping either, but it's a terribad idea. You already get a week's grace after a war ends.
10, 11 & 12. Why? How does this relate to miner bumping?
13. Why should you get to AFK mine faster than you already do? If you want to ignore local chat that's your lookout. It also has nothing to do with miner bumping.
14. Eve is not real life. You already have an unlimited supply of the stuff in far too many systems. Also, how does this relate to miner bumping?
15. I'm actually fine with this. The vast majority of foul language relating to miner bumping comes from the miners.
16. Concord already arrives way to fast, is incredibly overpowered and is generally no fun. Not sure how this relates to miner bumping, either.
17. Why? How does this relate to miner bumping?

To be honest, your post reads like you're probably quite young and / or not very mature.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

HydroSan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2012-12-02 09:42:03 UTC
This entire thread is some sort of elaborate troll right?
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#448 - 2012-12-02 09:45:41 UTC
HydroSan wrote:
This entire thread is some sort of elaborate troll right?


Sadly, no. It's more likely that CCP have already decided to cave, partially or completely, and that this is a pro-forma exercise so they can say they consulted the players. I hope I'm wrong, though.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#449 - 2012-12-02 10:03:56 UTC
admiral root wrote:
HydroSan wrote:
This entire thread is some sort of elaborate troll right?


Sadly, no. It's more likely that CCP have already decided to cave, partially or completely, and that this is a pro-forma exercise so they can say they consulted the players. I hope I'm wrong, though.


I hope you're wrong too, but we both know deep down inside that you're right.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Tusen Takk
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#450 - 2012-12-02 10:22:45 UTC
Frankly, if CCP caves to this, I'll be unsubbing. They have consistently used GSF as publicity and are *SO PROUD* of all the content we provide, then when we disrupt the carebear pubbie's little game of "play internetspaceships by myself to make lots of internetmoney" suddenly they forget all about us.

Stop dumbing the game down to please the idiots. This is supposed to be a sandbox, when someone gets sand in their eye they should get over it, not go running to mummy and threaten to stop playing in the sandbox if they don't get rid of the sand.
Sixx Spades
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#451 - 2012-12-02 10:38:58 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
  • If players feel they are being repeatedly harassed despite trying to avoid this practice by all necessary means, they are free and encouraged to file a petition.

Can it be truly said that bumping is an act that requires readdressing, considering the supposed victims are not even attempting to use the tools already at their disposal to avoid or escape from these actions? How many other examples of counter-tactics, described BY the bumpers FOR their targets, are required before we satisfy the topic at hand?

D'Om K'vash wrote:
Also seeing how many goons are posting that don't like this that automatically means that nerfing bumping is good for the game. they are just worried about losing an easy revenue stream. If there is one thing true of eve it's that what is bad for goons is good for eve.

Thank you for proving my point. You are the prime example of what I mean by "demonizing a group of players".

Using a weapon as a deterrent in a diplomatic situation is only viable when you have proven that you have deployed it in the past and are willing to use it in the future.

Shylari Avada
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#452 - 2012-12-02 10:57:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Shylari Avada
The very premise for this thread existing in the first place is a serious cause for concern.

This is a sandbox game. It is played as a sandbox game. If you don't like what is happening in space around you, go elsewhere or learn to enjoy a different aspect of EVE. I assure you that they are dozens of things in EVE far more enjoyable then mining (if you're actually at your desk while mining) and if you are not at your desk while mining your opinion should frankly be of no consequence to any change whatsoever in EVE. Some of us actually enjoy playing ships in space (for some reason).

Fact is, nobody can stay objective in discussing an aspect of the game that they don't take part in. What is fun for me, isn't necessarily fun for you; and while you may not enjoy it, what I do for fun is within the borders of game mechanics (and often requires knowledge of game mechanics beyond what your average player whos only response is to 'whine on the forums about it' may possess.)
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#453 - 2012-12-02 11:08:30 UTC
Bumping is such a none issue, the fact that it is the only thing left for miners to complain about suggests that highsec/mining is already terribly broken and needs rebalancing. Just in the opposite direction of what the miners are begging for
Daf Ook
Emergent Order
#454 - 2012-12-02 12:04:26 UTC
I just wanted to pipe up real quick to mention that I had let this account lapse for about a year. When I started reading www.minerbumping.com a few months ago I thought it was so well-done and hilarious that I wanted to participate, but my two main accounts live in a deep wormhole and rarely get out to hisec. So I reactivated this account simply to train up to a Stabber Fleet Issue and practice my hand at bumping. For every few people who unsub because having their barges bumped is so emotionally distressing that they simply can't bear to play the game anymore, there will be a few people who resub or make new accounts because they heard about something like minerbumping.com, something that could never happen in any other game.

Other examples (which have already been mentioned a few times in this thread) are Hulkageddon, Ice Interdictions, OTEC, GHSC, the Eve Bank scandal, Burn Jita, Jita riots, SOMER Blink, Red Frog Freight, etc. These are the things that blow gamers' minds, that make them want to come explore this galaxy with us. To stop just playing some copy of a game on some shard with a bunch of random strangers, and to actually exist in a virtual reality, where every action can have effects on others. This is the niche CCP has successfully carved out, and it is what has make it one of the most long-lasting and legendary MMOs of all time.

And come on guys!! There aren't that many people who like to spend hours and hours every day pretending to fly internet spaceships around. We all love cool space games, and computers and MMOs and we're probably all nerdy guys... who else are we going to play internet spaceships with?? If we were in high school we would all be in the super dorky RPG and SciFi/Fantasy clubs together. We've all found the coolest video game ever made, and we are all playing it together. We're not trying to be mean to miners, we just want to PLAY!!!! :) Please please play back with us!

The New Order folks, and I'm sure James 315 himself, would be absolutely DELIGHTED if the miners actually came up with some organized, effective resistance. I would be impressed if all the miners in a New Order belt simply all switched to AB Skiffs, and laughed as the Agents swooshed back and forth missing the bump. Even better would be organized suicide ganking attempts on the Agents. Or hiring some merc corp to suicide gank us. One interesting idea I heard was organizing an anti-New Order group who would specifically only bump miners who had paid for a New Order mining permit (thus rendering our "protection" worthless). Or ANYTHING. Poor Anslo tried with his Proveldtariat site, but his problem was that there seems to be just no way to motivate these miners to try to organize or do anything creative at all. And while the silly "Code" is tongue-in-cheek, the core of it is that we really truly do want to show people how much cooler the game they are playing actually can be. I spent 6 months mining in hisec when I first started playing, and I guarantee I wish something like the New Order had come along then and forced me to see what I was missing.

Oh, and to you folks saying that the entire Eve economy is going to collapse because some miners quit is ludicrous. You people have no idea of the amount of minerals that pass just thru Jita every day. And even if so many miners actually stopped mining so as to push mineral prices up, those higher prices will entice some new (less sensitive) people to start mining for the extra profits, and the increased supply will push prices back down. That's how markets and prices work.












Nyaris Wolfe
SHUT UP SEV
#455 - 2012-12-02 14:00:33 UTC
Solarius Elrond wrote:
Nyaris Wolfe wrote:
To be honest at this point I think we should leave it just as is. Just to see if Anslo's head would actually explode.

Rage issues!!!!


Seriously though, I don't particularly mind there being a counter to bumping, seriously. I don't. But I remain steadfast on the point Mallak made. Make them have to think about it


Lets be open and honest here. Miners aren't exactly deep thinkers. Mining is boring. If they want to avoid this stuff at least make it interesting, interactive and have a skill requirement. That'll seperate the men from the bots eh!



Hmm. Mining with no skills is a stupid waste of game time.
Skillful mining is not a waste of time.
The time invested in maxing out your mining skills for either the Orca or Hulk is substantial and the cost of the implants to top those skills off is in the billions at this time.
The return for the time and isk invested in Max mining skills and implants/ships is the ability for a single individual with two accounts to pay for both accounts using plex earned from mining, provided enough time is spent in game. Such players are generally not interested in pvp and CCP knows this. Else they would not have included mining as a profession in the game and just made Ore available on the market for manufactures to buy at fixed prices.

Mining ore is the base of the game economy. No ore or ice means no manufacturing etc . The economic ripples are game changing. (No pun intended)
The generally passive activity of mining is essential to the game. For most miners it is marginal in income until the much higher skill levels are reached.

So, YES, it is a fact of life miners unsub rates are higher than any other group or style of player in the game and if that rate climbs the game is negatively affected. CCP income is affected so they take action. Or had you not noticed the last "balancing"?

Honestly, stop with the hand wringing and panic about potentially losing your clever exploit of a game mechanic. Since this exploit of existing conditions of permitted play also has the potential to severely affect the entire game if left unchecked
then the liklihood of CCP addressing the situation is very high.

Mining in HiSec is a marginal profession at best for most players, or a major investment for others. Disrupt it sufficiently and lower skilled minerplayers will leave the profession and possibly the game. And higher skilled and heavily invested players will simply withdraw from the game entirely since their enjoyment is ruined.

HiSec was not created to be a totally safe sandbox. It was created to be a safer sandbox than low or null and even then has degrees of safety built in from 1.0 to 0.5.

HiSec was also created to allow even the passively inclined player have a place to learn about Eve and be persuaed to invest real dollars and personal time in the game. Is CCP ready to abandon that market share of the gamers on the net? Is CCP so socially naive as to be blind to the affect uncontrolled protection rackets can have on a society, especailly and artificial one Like EVE?

The disdain aggressive players have for "carebears" is foolish. They are an essential segment of the player base and the game economy depends on their predictable and steady production.

So enjoy this kind of extortion while you may. But please, stop with all the self justifications. They aren't necessary. What bumpers are doing is perfectly permissible currently. However if not corrected by CCP eventually more and more players will get involved in bumping and fewer and fewer players will be involved in mining. It is a social inevitablility. And, as in real life it will ulitmately cause a huge economic disruption, both in the game and of the games viablity in the pc gamer marketplace.

It might be interesting to start a pool betting on how long it will take CCP to make some kind of adjustment. Or alternatively, how long will it take for the application of this exploit to cause visible effects on the games economy. Maybe use the benchmark of Trit hitting 10 isk?


I think you're missing my point here. How interactive is mining?

It's not, so you invested into implants and time into training, please remember this is eve, your skills do not require :effort: to "level". You invalidate your own argument. All it requires is ISK, and that cash is easily made mining, I know I've done it. Even a basic mining barge is enough to mind numbingly make large amounts of ISK in a very short amount of time. If you think it isn't you're doing it wrong.

I'm trying to understand your point of view, I really am but you're not really making it particularly easy with your tiresome reiterations of the same basic points with the same basic flaws.

So the new order bumps miners for 10 mill hell I've never done a ransom that small but o.k, Even if they were the size of TEST they still wouldn't manage to be everywhere at every moment. And while we're at it your and every other miner protestings here's argument is truly made up on pride. This particular form of evestortion is nowhere near as bad as Jita scammers ripping off noobs. So as far as I see it the only thing making it "harrassment" is your pride and stubborness.

I agree HiSec is supposed to be safer not 100% safe, but I also stated there should be a mechanic to give those less passive players a chance to counter the bumping. The ones that annoy me are the bots and the ones who may as well just be bots. And if they get harrassed then not a f*** should be given imo.

While I'm at it, I do not bump miners, I have never bumped miners and I am not part of the new order on any character I own. I'm actually an FW pilot.

However minerbumping.com has given me some major entertainment on a lunch break.

I am an Alt who's main is too damn cheap to sub. http://aracimia.blogspot.co.uk/ Brony Capsuleer best Capsuleer!

Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#456 - 2012-12-02 15:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Adoulin
I would like to point out to CCP that this horrible bumping epidemic has yet to spread to all the ore belts and ice fields of EVE.

I have, on many occassions, seen people mining ice/ore with not a word being said by anybody and even after I, personally, do some nice bumping with my Talos Of Bumpy Doom, said silence continues.

One wonders why these horribly oppressed miners in the systems controlled by the tyrannical New Order don't simply 'vote with their feet' as it were, and head over to the other ice fields, or other public belts.

Or head into Wormhole space. Or go pay rent to a Nullsec/Lowsec corp and mine happily there with their new overlords to protect them from the vicious bumpers. Or go buy lots of gankfit destroyers/battlecruisers and lay in wait for the horrible bumpers (you do not need perfect skills to 'fly' a gankship. Goons prove this every day.) Or hire mercs to gank the evil bumpers. I'm sure there are simply dozens of hisec merc companies waiting to be hired by enraged AFK miners.

Last time I checked, EVE was supposedly a 'non-consensual' PvP-style game. This means that whether you like it or not, somebody can attack and blow up your ship, no matter where you are. What James 315 is doing is simply another form of PvP. Pay him or he (or one of his 'Agents') will bump you and interfere with your mining operation.

Mad that you can't wardec him? Yell at CCP to fix the wardec system.

Mad that you can't shoot him without getting CONCORDED? Go mine in low/null/W-space. Or hire some mercs to gank any New Order agent on sight, until they go away. Or gank them yourself, it's cheap and fun.

Personally I think the whole New Order schtick is hilarious and imaginative, and I am upset that I didn't think of it first..:)

Bumping ships has been used as an ambush tactic, a way to keep targets from warping out, and many other things. If CCP makes bumping for profit a EULA offense, then they had better do the same with regards to ransoming ships and pods, and charging other corps rent for letting them mine in your space, etc, etc. Worms, can opened.

I can't believe this thread even exists, I thought the whole thing was put to rest last month when CCP Falcon said 'working as intended.'

Of all the real, actual problems that need to be fixed in the game, and THIS crap is what apparently gets the attention of the powers that be.

Jesus WEPT.

/facepalms

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#457 - 2012-12-02 16:10:34 UTC
Lady Cub wrote:

This should not be possible. with Real Life physics.. If 2 cars collide at high speeds they only land a matter of feet away.


Since if we are talking "real life physics" a frigate going 4000m/s would blow a hole in any sized ship big enough to destroy it barring MAYBE capital ships I would probably suggest from your point of view it isn't good to suggest we use it as a starting point for gameplay mechanics.

Plus according to the laws of physics as long as i can push your ship with my ship (which i can as your ship has no weight, only mass) then over time I can continue to push your ship where it will continue travelling in the same direction until it's acted upon by an outside force.

So again, not the best argument for you to use as you'd easily end up 100km away from where you were by the time you return to your PC.

Quote:
Miners are being taken advantage of and have absolutely NO recourse to prevent these malicious exploits of game mechanics. Miners are also being Targeted and suicide ganked in what is supposed to be High Sec. For example: "The New Order" is suicide ganking in Kamio a 0.7 High Security system ICE field. There are no ICE fields in higher security space. They are able to get off 3 cycles in a T3 Talos before getting CONCORDed.

Miners are usually a group of Quite people that mind their own business and Obtain the Minerals needed for Building Industries or trading on Market. These poor folks are being Maliciously targeted Harassed and taken advantage of by those exploiting the broken game mechanics as well as Verbal abuse and Griefing War Declaration usually by one person corps. Most people assume that miners are AFK when in fact they are multi-tasking running Market and Industry.


You raise the issue of:

1) Being taken advantage of
2) Suicide ganking in high sec
3) The fact miners are nice quiet people who don't deserve their treatment
4) They get war decced
5) Miners contribute a lot to the game

My responses are:

1) This is EVE, people are taken advantage of on a daily basis. From the obvious of scamming people, to the less so obvious of a CEO running his corp and getting people to work for him all to line his own pockets. This is a part of what makes EVE... well... EVE.
2) Suicide ganking can only happen in high sec. Mining barges just had a MASSIVE buff to EHP, and if you're worried about suicide ganking there is the option of using the mining barge designed to offer you increased EHP over the other variants. The fact you choose not to do so because you don't wish to lower your yield/cargo hold is irrelevant.
3) If you have actually read James 315's blogs you'd see some horrific language, threats and deceptions being used by miners. Several people have threatened James IRL over bumping and plenty have told him to go kill himself. Likewise just because I may be a nice person does that mean I should be excused from bits of the game i dont like?
4) It's a game mechanic that is working as intended (more or less).
5) Miners may help the economy but in general they don't help the community. CCP game easily change the game to boost a broken economy but it can't easily change people to make the community better. I have met some high sec miners who seem nice, friendly people who know how to speak to other people, however too many posts I've read on here are totally the opposite of all those things. If there are intelligent, friendly miners out there I suggest they speak up before it's too late.

Quote:
These people are not only "Bumping" they are Ganking and War Dec using single person corps over and over. Miners have absolutely no recourse as they are not trained for PVP nor Ganking the Gankers.. In Real Life one would call 911 (police) and have them arrest the offenders. There is no game mechanics that allow someone to call in CONCORD or police in game.


That is a false anaology.

What is actually more like the real situation is that someone is doing some housework to re-decorate their house at 1pm on a Saturday. They are using hammers and drills and as a result the table you are sitting on keeps wobbling and knocking over the Tower of Cards you are trying to build. You could go out and buy the wood glue or nails you know you need to fix the wobbly table and it would only cost you a small amount of money. Instead you call "911" and tell the police that the person next door is interrupting your fun as they are redecorating your house. The police inform you there is no law against that and suggest you either fix the table leg or speak to the people next door and ask them politely to stop.

Quote:

I know several quadriplegic that play EVE. They can not PVP. They can and do Mine / Trade / Industry. They use Voice commands to maneuver and control the game. These griefing and harrassments should fall under a violation of the EULA. These are Harassment in it purest form. These are Criminal Cyber Bullying tactics in the USA especially the harmful verbal tactics and foul language in Local. Some of these Tactics fall under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).


You manage to combine a typical ridiculous miner statement "they are harassing my disabled friends" with a typical american statement "It's against US law therefore it must be illegal".

It isn't against the law and the US law means nothing to the game as it's not hosted there. In theory if you found a player was based in the US and he was harassing someone in the US you could potentially file for prosecution. However then you would need to prove that the other persons actions weren't a part of the game they agreed to play when they signed up. Considering the current position is that bumping is legal you'd be laughed out of court.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#458 - 2012-12-02 16:13:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Lady Cub wrote:
How can we fix the Harassment issues of the broken exploited game mechanics?

Stuff that would make my life as a miner easier.


I'm only going to address a few of these points, primarily because most of them are self defeating and therefore have no relevance.

"2. Allow Miners to have CPU / PG to utilize defensive measures. " Miners have just had a massive defensive buff, that extra EHP you just got?, take advantage of it, fit a proper tank not some of the lol tanks I've seen recently.

"3. Allow Miners to equip Turrets." Fine you can have turrets, however you get to keep the amount of high slots you already have, a max of 3, how many miners would sacrifice a strip miner or ice harvester to fit a turret? You also have a drone bay, use it's contents to protect yourself, ECM drones, webbing drones and combat drones will fit in there. The high slots on a mining vessel are not restricted to mining lasers, you can fit any number of things in them including offensive modules like an energy neutraliser, they are what is commonly known as utility highs.

Using mining vessels as combat vessels is nothing new, a hulk pilot went on the rampage long before the exhumer buff and clocked up a significant amount of frigate, destroyer and cruiser kills, sometimes without even bothering to stop mining (do a youtube search for "when carebears attack" for video evidence). I myself have a Procuror, a T1 mining barge, equipped for combat, small neut in the single high, warp scrambler & shield stuff in the mids, DCII, for the resists, & a drone damage amplifier, to increase it's potential firepower, in the lows, on top of all that it still packs enough EHP to rival a battlecruiser. What you're asking for is already possible, you just don't, or refuse to, see it.

"4. Allow Orcas to Mine and equip Turrets. (Full Racks)" Orcas can already mine, the mechanism is called mining drones, also the BattleOrca is already present in game, they are hilarious for killing other pilots because nobody expects it, think outside the box, surprise people, then kill them.

With reference to the Americans with Disability's Act in the US, sorry that doesn't apply in a game where the ESRB don't rate the online/multiplayer content, as it the ESRB rates Eve as violent . That's before you take into account that CCP is based in Iceland, which last time I checked was trying to join the European Union not the United States, and that a lot of Eve players don't live in the US, therefore both CCP and non US players are not subject to US law. If there truly are para & quadriplegics playing Eve they have my utmost respect for getting on with their lives as best they can, but their disability does not make them exempt from the player interaction that Eve is famous for. I use the ESRB rating because it is an American organisation and the point specifically relates to US law.

I'm now waiting for someone from nullsec to pipe up and say that they have people who are disabled, in corp or alliance, that are successful in combat, because I can guarantee that there are people with physical & mental disabilities who are.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#459 - 2012-12-02 16:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Kitchner
My answers are in bold

Lady Cub wrote:
How can we fix the Harassment issues of the broken exploited game mechanics?

1. Make it so that Bumping has less affect on Miners ships. Currently CCP does not think it's an exploit therefore there's no need to fix it. Plus this would have to effect all ships not just mining barges, which would be Bad for many reasons
2. Allow Miners to have CPU / PG to utilize defensive measures. They could have already equipped them against ganking, something you have moaned about, yet they don't. Why is this any different?
3. Allow Miners to equip Turrets. Bumping doesn't give aggression, so would be useless. Again, miners don't fit defensive modules to protect against gankgs, why would they fit guns over mining modules?
4. Allow Orcas to Mine and equip Turrets. (Full Racks) You might as well let a battleship fit strip miners
5. Make Major Bumping an Aggression equal to outlaws so anyone can attack them without CONCORD. Firstly this isn't possible, secondly the jita undock would become a ship grave yard, thirdly miners wouldnt equip guns over mining equipment anyway
6. Disallow small corps under 10 members from using the War dec mechanics. If you don't like wardecs live in an NPC corp
7. Disallow corps from using the War dec mechanics unless they are at least one month old. (including all members joined date.) If you don't like wardecs live in an NPC corp
8. If a corp Declares a War its members Must Log on and be online actively moving around for a minimum time of lets say, 8- 10 hours average of its members or the War dec devolves. If you don't like wardecs live in an NPC corp
9. Only Allow a corp to War Dec another Once Per Month unless they agree to be at War. If you don't like wardecs live in an NPC corp
10. If someone Suicide ganks more than once a month they should be banned from High Sec. Why? CCP have already said they believe suicide ganking to be a legitimate game tool, they just didnt want it to be profitable every time you do it
11. If someone suicide ganks while in an NPC corp they will be banned from High Sec immediately. Why? CCP have already said they believe suicide ganking to be a legitimate game tool, they just didnt want it to be profitable every time you do it
12. If more than one corp members Suicide ganks in High Sec the entire corp gets banned from High Sec by CONCORD. If any members are in a Station in High Sec, they get arrested and relocated to the nearest Low/Null Sec in a pod. You should think this through. All i need to do is join a mining corp with two alts, suicide gank people and get everyone kicked to low/high sec
13. Increase the speed in which Miners can Mine Ore/ICE. No one is going to sit and watch a screen like a zombie for 30 minutes to 5.8 hours waiting for the ship to fill up. Ice Harvester I is 600 seconds Cycle time, which is lowered to a low of 106.55 seconds with level 5 skills and Fleet Boosters. (Most Miners Multi-task running Market and Industry while Mining and do not see Gankers / Bumpers chatting in Local. Most people avoid the drama of Local.) Your solution to miners being bumped is to leter miners mine more ice? They wont sit at the PC at all, they'll just make more money AFK
14. Put ICE in all systems.. In Real Life, ICE is found everywhere in all of outer space and all solar systems. Even our hottest planet Mercury has ICE. (Most Bumping Ganking is ICE focused No, this is a game, you might as well put everything in every system everywhere
15. Make CONCORD attack and pod for foul language in local. There would be a lot of dead miners
16. Make CONCORD arrive 100x faster. With their magical teleport beams?
17. Allow Special Petitions equal to calling 911 (Police) to protect the peace and either fine the offenders 1 billion isk for each offense or ban them from High Sec or the game depending on repeated offense. (Harassment issues should be top priority.) Only if anyone using this gets banned for 4 months for wasting police time


I'm actually pretty sure you're a troll, as no-one would ever unironically suggest these

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Kathtrine
My Dot Corp
#460 - 2012-12-02 18:10:37 UTC
I have the solution to all the whining that is fair.

Perma-Ban-Hammer the following players:

Everyone that whines about ganking.
Everyone that whines about how they cant gank in 3 shots or less anymore.

Everyone that whines about bumping.
Everyone that whines about how they hate non-consensual PvP in EvE.

Everyone that whines.

So pretty much most of the people that posted on how they hate ____(insert game mechanic here)____ in all threads, posts and chat.

What will we get, a very very quiet forum and local.

Bumping is legal, get over it. (From a mining person)

Harassing players is not, CCP enforces it. BTW I had a player harass me (on an alt) last night in Jita. Told them to stop (it was verbal only). They didn't, so I petitioned them with details. GM deals with them. Person stopped talking in local. I think CCP's GM's are doing a great job. Go Read the EULA and the TOS to deal with that.

Bump me mining and I have been I will come along with an alt and bump you back. Or I will go do something much more profitable, Mission running. Back to that.

[b]If your griefing about EvE online and still paying for it, your hooked and CCP has done thier job.

Now go blow somebodies ship up and stop whining about whatever your are lacking.[/b]