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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

First post First post
Author
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1201 - 2011-10-21 10:53:33 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
Quote:
*Discussion of fuel costs of POS manufacture slots*


Anything that makes over 1 mil/slot/day in profit will easily pay that back and then some, if you consider the 33% increase in production from the build time bonus.


My PI networks were unnoticeably uneffected by the increase in pipe flow. They were already efficiently set up.


Your reading comprehension skills are only matched by the clarity of your writing.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Ottman
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1202 - 2011-10-21 11:20:47 UTC
well just a thought about industrial pilots that do pi and cant use custom office because of whatsoever, is it possible to make a launch of 10 k m³ into orbit right away ? it would be rather more sensefull in my opinion that this alternative should be given if those custom offices are getting shot down more often, sorry to say that, only so called pvp pilots will be happy about player custom offices, those who do pi and take part in the needed eve delivery industry should given an alternative option than have to use those player custom offices, tbh i see more disadvantages and raising prices in this "feature" than everything else, and even the pvp pilots will think twice when everything gets even more expensive than now.

i know i know, the "give me your stuff when you leave eve" and "carebears" flaming will come around next corner after this posting of me, but i play eve for some years already and i know that kind of changes like this one will have significant impact, and that for everyone, we talk about pos production, pos fuel and partwise also about t2 production, and now tell me who will not be affected by higher prices in those sectors ? everyone will ofc and it can also mean 2-4 plexes more per year if you buy them from ccp, and that is aiming for your cash in real life, or more time spend with not fun things like earning isk in eve, and less pvp what most of us call fun.

so think twice before you say "yay more targets well done ccp" ...


MfG Ottman
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies
The 20 Minuters
#1203 - 2011-10-21 11:24:47 UTC
Basically what I need to hear from the EVE PI team is this;

Why would an independent or smaller non- capital ship corp want to invest in PI in lowsec after the proposed changes?
Or infact want to use Customs Offices they don't control at all at tremendously increased risk to the present situation?

Let me put it simply as an industrialist my only concern is the bottom line. A black number telling me my profits.
Currently this makes Lowsec PI a good option because despite having to invest 100 million in an expensive hauler or two be able to effectively move stuff with a minimal risk of loosing said stuff the increase in yield over hi-sec is worth the extra risk. I expect to eventually loose a hauler but so far not being an idiot and good preparation means I've only ever lost as single Itty 4.

Under the new situation;

* I need to invest in an expensive structure that I can not defend, and if somebody shoots it I loose weeks if (more likely) not months in profit right there and then. And somebody eventually will shoot it even if I set the tax to 0%. If you really believe people 'will be reasonable' I'm not sure you are playing the same EVE I play. They won't be, never have been tears > everything esle, you run a MMO filled with hardcore griefers that's just the way it is.
* I can use a structure put up by somebody else, but by doing so I hand them valuable intel about the times I am active and access their structure, they can use this to destroy my 100 million ship (potentially it's cargo too) or hand this information to somebody else. MASSIVE increase in risk. Basically I just painted "PLEASE GANK ME" on my occator the moment I use somebody else's customs office.
* I run the risk of a previously open to me customs office getting closed and loosing my investment in the structures on the planet.
* There will be far less offices in space and thereby even without the time stamp issue it becomes easy for pirates to predict where they can catch juicy haulers.

What does this mean? My black number at the bottom line becomes a lot lower and potentially even turns into a red number (the latter option meaning i loose all my RL invested time).
Alternatively I train two extra PI alts on my account and move to hisec to compensate for the lower planetary yields and loose RL time in clicking an hauling on those accounts, but not as much invested time as I'd loose having to replace an expensive POCO or Cloaky/Stabby T2 Hauler.

I ask you which of these 2 options do you think an industrialist is more likely to pick? The risk free one with a guaranteed black number at the bottom line. Or the one with massively increased risks that he/she has no guarantee will make more and will potentially loose money?

Not exactly rocket science is it?

Just to be clear I currently run my PI in deep lowsec (5 jumps in) and live there, I'm not risk averse, I am also however not crazy.
Frozen Eddie Johnson
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1204 - 2011-10-21 11:26:47 UTC
Seriously, if this crap goes through, can I get my PI skillpoints refunded on my main and industry alt? PI was touted as being accessible to everyone, and with these changes, unless you are in a large corp/alliance, all of the good planets are going to be locked out.

The dev mentioning high sec PI makes me want to facepalm with a brick; even before doubling the taxes, high sec PI isn't worth the time or horribly clickfesty effort due to the terrible resource concentrations.

This change does NOTHING to improve PI at this point, it is still the same exact (very limited) clickfest; all this does is makes it harder to access for the little guy.
Isabella Thresher
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1205 - 2011-10-21 11:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Isabella Thresher
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Isabella Thresher wrote:
q1: can we defend our customs office in lowsec without taking a standing hit?


Attacking a customs office in lowsec will give you GCC so anyone can shoot you, from the owning corp or otherwise.

Isabella Thresher wrote:
q2: can we use the custom office on a corporate level now, or will it still be single player?


Everyone from the owning corp may use the customs office but the inventory inside it, like PI, are stored per player.


q1: ok good. this gives non-industrial corpmates something to shoot in empire.
however i still doubt this leaves much room for small corps doing pi in lowsec. the structures will get shot one way or another, just "because they can".

q2: why? is there a specific reason behind this? we would like to share the inventory on a corp level. not gonna happen, ever?
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1206 - 2011-10-21 11:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
As earlier mentioned, I was working on compiling a list of concerns with the current design of Player-owned Customs Offices (PCO). I am posting this list here, please have a look if I have missed anything important there.

Please note that I compiled this list regardless if I think the concerns are valid or not and especially regardless if those concerns are indeed valid or not. If you perceive something as a serious problem, then it should be in this list. If it is not, please notify me.

Please remember also that most of the people like the idea of more industry options, a more player governed game world with fewer artificial NPC interaction. There are also many people who like specifically the proposed changes. But this is not the topic of this list.

The responsible Dev team is really happy to have all your good and valuable feedback!


  1. User Interface not good enough
    1. Not enough flexibility at setting taxes for the different standing levels. Player suggestion here.
    2. Timestamp of tax collection in corp wallet could be used to collect intel on people doing PI.
    3. Tax management bad for large entities, necessary to include alliance level also.
    4. Finding “suitable” PCOs without going from system to system near impossible.
    5. Advertising tax rate for PCO and checking for competitors extremely difficult.


  2. Problems during transition period
    1. No BPCs available before wipe of the existing Customs Offices, transition becomes very difficult.
    2. Disruption of PI due to the transition might become a major problem.
    3. Lack of Gantries and PCOs during the transition


  3. Lowsec changes caters only griefing
    1. Lowsec will get devastated since every random group can bust PCOs without drawback
    2. Risk/Reward in Lowsec is completely wrong, no good enough profit from PI in Lowsec.


  4. Nullsec changes only good for blobs and large groups
    1. Shuts out small groups from 0.0 as they can’t compete with big blobs
    2. Large 0.0 alliances will never allow independent small groups (as seen in the past)
    3. PCO owners won’t allow access of neutrals, this encourages only big blobs
    4. Supercap blob heaven shooting up those defenceless structures


  5. Bad effects on other industries
    1. PI prices will increase drastically, affecting POS owners heavily, making it more difficult for the small/new people


  6. Wormholes
    1. Reinforcement timer in Wormholes too long for roaming gangs to do any serious damage
    2. Transition in Wormholes will be especially difficult without prior BPC release
    3. Wormhole corporations will lock out everyone else, no Ninja-PI possible


  7. Pricelevels are off, PCOs will be unprofitable
    1. PCOs will be unprofitable and not worth the invested time and especially ISK
    2. Income from PCOs will be too low to justify the build costs and risk deploying them
    3. Taxrate will be either near 0 or near 100
    4. Taxes in Highsec for P4 products too high


  8. Worries about general mechanics
    1. Only one PCO per planet is not good enough and hinders competition.
    2. Too big changes with not enough thoughts being put into the resulting effects on the sandbox as whole
    3. Defenceless PCOs are bad and encourage random griefing and no ‘constructive’ destruction
    4. Transport rocket from player surface is not large enough to prevent being locked out prom planets
    5. P4 producers are especially hit hard when no PCO is around, rocket won’t help here


  9. Change of playstyle to more blobbing and griefing, hurting small people
    1. Encourages blobbing
    2. Discourages small gang warfare
    3. Hurts the small people most, benefits large blobs most
    4. Encourages griefing a lot as there is no risk in attacking PCOs
    5. Easy griefing PCOs discourages constructive gameplay
    6. Giving away control to people who do not really care about it – heavy grief play results.
    7. Lowsec/Nullsec exclusively for corps and alliances only now
    8. More boring structure shooting and grinding
    9. Extremely asymmetric , catering to the attackers and griefers
    10. Forces people into corporations if they want to do PCO, big change of playstyle


  10. Bad for casual gameplay
    1. Hurts the casual player since they normally won’t get the required corp roles to deploy PCOs
    2. PI changes from low risk, low income to high risk, very boring, medium income
    3. Why roles at all for POCs? That only hurts casual games without roles


  11. Details of the structures
    1. Size of the gantry is bad, it doesn’t fit into all racial blockade runners. Either make it small enough to fit into all blockade runners or large enough that it doesn’t fit into any runner




List updates marked in italics.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1207 - 2011-10-21 11:46:03 UTC
Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:

* I need to invest in an expensive structure that I can not defend, and if somebody shoots it I loose weeks if (more likely) not months in profit right there and then. And somebody eventually will shoot it even if I set the tax to 0%. If you really believe people 'will be reasonable' I'm not sure you are playing the same EVE I play. They won't be, never have been tears > everything esle, you run a MMO filled with hardcore griefers that's just the way it is.
* snip *
* I run the risk of a previously open to me customs office getting closed and loosing my investment in the structures on the planet.


The more I think about it, the more I think you should not be allowed to deny access to your POCO to other people. Charge different rates on different standings, sure. But not close it down completely.

Force people to fight over the tax income, not the planets themselves.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
#1208 - 2011-10-21 12:05:54 UTC
I see lots of people saying the 0.0 POCO's are a great idea, I'm presuming these people either live in 0.0 as part of a sov holding Alliance or have never been to 0.0 so don't care.

While I agree that if you hold sov you should be able to "own" your Customs offices I also think that in systems where no sov is held having 1 POCO at a planet basically means that alliance holds sov on that planet.

Also, NPC 0.0 should not have planets "owned" by anyone alliance/corp/player as they are already owned.

I've done my share of ranting on the subject, now for a constructive idea.

Keep all the current CO's and make them conquerable ( mentioned already by someone ) but only if you hold sov.

If you do not hold sov, so that's low and npc 0.0, then you have to rent an office using the same mechanics for office renting that's already in place. The rental price will go up and down depending on popularity of that planet eventually reaching a balance.

the CO's should remain undockable but have a Corp hangar like the stations do!

this way everybody gets to have their cake without any negative implications to PI production.

I'm guessing this is far to simple for CCP and lots of ppl with big ships are going to flame because they can't blow up ppl with smaller ship's stuff!!

PS, @ War Kitten.......Do you work for CCP undercover, you seem to be answering everybody's questions for them and unless you work for them you know as much as we do, so not much!
Cailais
Tao Expeditionary
#1209 - 2011-10-21 12:16:46 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
As earlier mentioned, I was working on compiling a list of concerns with the current design of Player-owned Customs Offices. I am posting this list here, please have a look if I have missed anything important there.


I think it has been mentioned elsewhere and I think should be included for consideration:

How does a player 'find' a suitable POCO to work under?

There are various options - perhaps through the corporate information interface (corp A runs the following POCOs and their tax rates are....), a map or system information panel or through remote scanning of a planet.

These considerations are important because players will want to know, potentially in advance, what PI availability is around them and what the competition might entail. Equally it has ramifications in terms of conflict - how easy would it be to 'find' a corps full POCO set up and raise it to the ground: is that a good, or a bad thing?

There's a balance to be achieved within providing that information and a challenge in how it is communicated through the UI.

C.

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1210 - 2011-10-21 12:51:22 UTC
Holy One wrote:
So to sum up.

As things stand 50% of PI is done in high sec.

After the changes, 90% of PI will be done in highsec but by far fewer people.

A lot of advanced mass production, invention and mfg will simply cease in high and low sec due to prohibitively high set up costs and raw materials.

Everything from pos fuel to heavy missiles is gonna skyrocket. Resulting in more isk in the hands of the few and less pvp/even more risk aversion from the sheeple hordes in high sec.

Nobody in null sec is gonna bother with PI. WH PI will become insanely profitable and be largely risk free.

A lot of 'independant' industrialists will quit PI or move to high sec and downscale their operations ie. accounts.

CCP will lose money. Low sec will have even less occupants, the game will not be enriched, the subscriber base will not be diversified. The blob will grow. Over time, there will be fewer trial conversions as the time:isk required to get involved in any meaningful activity in game gets higher and higher.

Win for the dude who'll re-sub his pvp accounts to shoot POCS tho .. Big smile


Don't forget the dogs and cats sleeping together.

Say hi to Harold Camping for me today.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1211 - 2011-10-21 12:52:54 UTC
There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow.

PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you".

If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc
#1212 - 2011-10-21 12:58:54 UTC
when can we expect this to be implemented?
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1213 - 2011-10-21 13:00:47 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow.

PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you".

If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be.


Command center launches will still be available. If CCP made the launch capacity larger or able to launch more often, not many people would complain and this specific complaint would be null and void. If you launch the P1 products produced on a planet into orbit, you can then transfer the resources to your high-sec factory planet. This is the way most serious PI people do their production, especially if they get their P1 products from low-sec. Of course, the only difference is that they use the MUCH more convenient customs offices already in place. Again, if CCP made the launch capacity of command centers larger (not rivaling that of launch pads obviously), not many people would have reason to complain. Of course, there's always the issue of the far away comm center...

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.

Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1214 - 2011-10-21 13:10:17 UTC
Scarlett Ninja wrote:
I see lots of people saying the 0.0 POCO's are a great idea, I'm presuming these people either live in 0.0 as part of a sov holding Alliance or have never been to 0.0 so don't care.

While I agree that if you hold sov you should be able to "own" your Customs offices I also think that in systems where no sov is held having 1 POCO at a planet basically means that alliance holds sov on that planet.

Also, NPC 0.0 should not have planets "owned" by anyone alliance/corp/player as they are already owned.

I've done my share of ranting on the subject, now for a constructive idea.

Keep all the current CO's and make them conquerable ( mentioned already by someone ) but only if you hold sov.

If you do not hold sov, so that's low and npc 0.0, then you have to rent an office using the same mechanics for office renting that's already in place. The rental price will go up and down depending on popularity of that planet eventually reaching a balance.

the CO's should remain undockable but have a Corp hangar like the stations do!

this way everybody gets to have their cake without any negative implications to PI production.

I'm guessing this is far to simple for CCP and lots of ppl with big ships are going to flame because they can't blow up ppl with smaller ship's stuff!!

PS, @ War Kitten.......Do you work for CCP undercover, you seem to be answering everybody's questions for them and unless you work for them you know as much as we do, so not much!


Seeing as this mechanic is supposed to tie in with DUST 514, this makes obvious sense in 0.0 space. NPC 0.0 space is no exception, as the sov holding alliances almost always have "control" of most of those regions anyway, at least I know this is certain in Stain, The Outer Ring, Venal, and the Great Wildlands. As for the POCO being fully destructible, 0.0 space is fine for it. It gives the sov holding alliances something to fight for and, to be honest, that's what makes up most of 0.0 space anyhow. If you're in 0.0 space and not in NPC space, odds are you're a "pet" that will have good standings with the sov holding alliance in question, so the tax rates on the POCOs that will be anchored will be ridiculously low. people don't want to charge their allies an arm and a leg for something they are getting very little return on anyhow.

As for low-sec, the idea of conquerable POCOs is excellent, as it doesn't block anyone from using the POCO, just the tax rate and who the taxes go to. If CCP does this in LOW-SEC ONLY, there would be a great many less concerns with this new mechanic.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1215 - 2011-10-21 13:13:24 UTC
Scarlett Ninja wrote:
I see lots of people saying the 0.0 POCO's are a great idea, I'm presuming these people either live in 0.0 as part of a sov holding Alliance or have never been to 0.0 so don't care.

While I agree that if you hold sov you should be able to "own" your Customs offices I also think that in systems where no sov is held having 1 POCO at a planet basically means that alliance holds sov on that planet.

Also, NPC 0.0 should not have planets "owned" by anyone alliance/corp/player as they are already owned.

I've done my share of ranting on the subject, now for a constructive idea.

Keep all the current CO's and make them conquerable ( mentioned already by someone ) but only if you hold sov.

If you do not hold sov, so that's low and npc 0.0, then you have to rent an office using the same mechanics for office renting that's already in place. The rental price will go up and down depending on popularity of that planet eventually reaching a balance.

the CO's should remain undockable but have a Corp hangar like the stations do!

this way everybody gets to have their cake without any negative implications to PI production.

I'm guessing this is far to simple for CCP and lots of ppl with big ships are going to flame because they can't blow up ppl with smaller ship's stuff!!

PS, @ War Kitten.......Do you work for CCP undercover, you seem to be answering everybody's questions for them and unless you work for them you know as much as we do, so not much!


CCP War Kitten - that has a cool ring to it :)

Sadly no, I just play the game quite thoroughly and am familiar with a lot of the mechanics of it. Many of the people raging in this thread don't seem to be as familiar.

IIRC, to even place a PI settlement in sov 0.0, your alliance has to hold sov already, or have nobody holding sov there. If you sneak a settlement in under those rules and the sov changes later, you still keep your settlement. (But are subject to the potential new CO owners if the new changes go in effect - this is good).

I do like the idea of conquerable CO though - regardless of who has sov in the space. Not all takeovers have to be destructive.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1216 - 2011-10-21 13:13:40 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow.

PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you".

If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be.


Command center launches will still be available. If CCP made the launch capacity larger or able to launch more often, not many people would complain and this specific complaint would be null and void. If you launch the P1 products produced on a planet into orbit, you can then transfer the resources to your high-sec factory planet. This is the way most serious PI people do their production, especially if they get their P1 products from low-sec. Of course, the only difference is that they use the MUCH more convenient customs offices already in place. Again, if CCP made the launch capacity of command centers larger (not rivaling that of launch pads obviously), not many people would have reason to complain. Of course, there's always the issue of the far away comm center...


Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Lord Timelord
The Killer Cockatoos
#1217 - 2011-10-21 13:21:52 UTC
Once again... adding MORE logistics (to small corps) to the game than is needed. In my opinion this will:
- make all PI Material Costs Skyrocket
- make it much harder for small corporations to maintain a stockpile of PI Materials
- cause an endless amount of griefing by larger corps (with current EHP, these structures could be reinforced with 6 battleships in just a few minutes. The smaller corps will be endlessly remote repping these structures with logistics ships every few days.

As a 7 1/2 year EVE Veteran that likes industry... CCP is really ticking me off on their 'one step ahead and five steps back' approach to how they are running their game 'improvements'. I suggest the following changes to your proposal:

Empire CO - Double the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD)
Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD)
Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built)
W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built)

Do the above and the 'small guys' will still be able to have some fun in low-sec. Avoid my advice at the risk of loosing many subscriptions (yet again).

LISTEN to your Customers CCP!
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1218 - 2011-10-21 13:28:22 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level.


Yes, we understand you refuse to see past the other options available to you:

1) Use a high-sec factory for your imports.
2) Find a less populous lowsec area to do your imports. (Lowsec is pretty empty if you get past the first 5 systems in)
3) Negotiate with the residents to use thier CO and planet for imports.
4) Join a larger corporation with similar interests.


Just because you want to play solo does not mean every single aspect of every single feature should cater to your play style.


I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1219 - 2011-10-21 13:29:30 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:


  1. Wormholes
    1. Reinforcement timer in Wormholes too long for roaming gangs to do any serious damage
    2. Transition in Wormholes will be especially difficult without prior BPC release


  2. Bad for casual gameplay
    1. Hurts the casual player since they normally won’t get the required corp roles to deploy PCOs
    2. PI changes from low risk, low income to high risk, very boring, medium income
    3. Why roles at all for POCs? That only hurts casual games without roles



Regarding wormholes you forgot to add that WH corporation will lock out any neutral non-corp player from the planets and wh in general just like 0.0 does, this is a very established fact.

The highlighted section. How do you go from low risk/low income to suddenly medium income for the same setup? I think there is an assumption here of price inflation that might not pan out as well as you think. However, in your claim of increased income you fail to take into consideration the POCO taxes tpaid + cost of the POCO to deploy + extremely high likelihood of destruction thus the cost of defense. Both play styles continue to be very boring since you are not changing PI interaction at all, only the PO. However instead of starting PI with the cost of the command centers and maybe supporting cover to bring them to low/null you now start PI extremely in the red. Cost of the command center, cost of the POCO, cost of the corporation creation if you are going to do it solo, cost of defense of said POCO when it comes under attack, potential cost of removing unfriendly POCO to access a planet, if friendly POCO the taxes paid. These are all factors for net income, you cannot say gross income will go up because product prices go up.

Also missing from the list is the individual capsuleer. They MUST become a member of a corporation or form one to launch a POCO. Therefore you are forcing players to move from their current play style by the corporation requirement.
Paski
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1220 - 2011-10-21 13:37:40 UTC
Lord Timelord wrote:


Do the above and the 'small guys' will still be able to have some fun in low-sec. Avoid my advice at the risk of loosing many subscriptions (yet again).


maybe you won't lose many but the players you do will be long term players with multiple accounts, many of whom have been around a while and who like doing stuff in low sec for a bit of excitement, who don't want to be part of a big corp/alliance yet are not prepared to risk wasting their time (don't mind risking a ship) having mindless greifer gangs (which like living in lowsec) disrupte and hold chokepoints over their systems, I don't mind risking isk/ships, but I am not going to waste my time