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[Winter] Ewar Tweaks for Retribution

First post First post
Author
OT Smithers
Perkone
Caldari State
#461 - 2012-11-19 05:34:55 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
Right now CCP is trying to find an imaginary perfect point at which ECM pilots feel like they are doing something meaningful, but at which no one else is actually bothered or impacted by ECM jamming. If this sounds impossible, that's because it is. None the less, that's apparently what they are going to try and do. Myself, I would rather see them abandon the quest and instead develop an entirely new form of EWAR for the Caldari. Something that CCP can comfortably allow to work as well as it should.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
The reason these are being revealed near the end of our feature announcements is that we were investigating options for a more comprehensive ECM rebalance, however that will not be able to make it into Retribution. These changes are not the final solution for ewar by a long shot, they are incremental changes that will build towards the more complete changes we would like to make to the mechanics.

[...]

We also want to reiterate that we are not looking at these ecm changes as a complete solution to the problems with that mechanic. It's a moderate change that we can make with the resources available for this expansion and that won't get in the way of our more comprehensive changes down the road.

What CCP is trying to do IMO is to stop the crying.

I don't think people at CCP are as stupid as you are implying... Though, such an overall take time, a lot of time, and they may not have the resources to do it now.

As for your suggestion, it's an offensive module you are proposing. The difference with a defensive module is that it scale *extremely* well with gang size (like TP : you need one for a thousand size F1 hiting gang).


I was posting an example to illustrate my point rather than a proposal I would like to see implemented.

My personal feeling is that ECM is arguably fine as is (with the exception of ECM drones). No new skills are needed, nor are nerfs. I wouldn't mind seeing it addressed, but only if it is done in such a way that it retains whatever power it currently has and becomes more interesting. But in this case, as in the case with all of these changes, what I would like as a player is irrelevant. CCP Fozzie has his own vision for how things aught to be in the game, and good or bad the players will adapt.

If ECM is to be nerfed, and this is only the beginning of that process, I would like to see something powerful and interesting take its place. This first step, however, indicates that this is not in the cards. So be it.
Nova Satar
Annihilate.
#462 - 2012-11-19 10:42:06 UTC
its been a long time coming, but these changes to ECM and the new ECCM type skills are MUCH NEEDED!

Currently ECM in empire and low-sec is nothing short of an absolute joke.

I know its hard for people in big blob gangs to comprehend, but when you are trying to solo, or pvp in a gang of 5 or less, and you see falcon, its normally game over. NO ship should have that impact. Yes i realise it can sometimes be countered if the guys an idiot, but 99/100 he will be gone by the time you are within 60km of him, and he'll back back in 10 seconds at another point.

Another problem is that minmatar jammers for example, can still be used on gall ships, yes its much weaker i know, but it still works. Much to the downfall of the solo pvper..... as you are getting 7 jammers on you regardless, and you will not be locking anything until you die. A change that allows racial jammers to be used only on that races ships would be a good change.

All in all though this is a good step forward, atleast its giving us a ******* chance. Im sorry but if these pilots want to feel involved, maybe they should just come and get in the fight like everyone else, rather than sitting at 100km with absolute immunity!

Nova Satar
Annihilate.
#463 - 2012-11-19 10:44:27 UTC
Njord Vanir wrote:

ECM is and always has been an all or nothing approach.
ECM boats have zero survivability* and low mobility, which means that ECM only makes sense to use if


This is such a big gang member view. When you have 4 people in your gang, and a falcon can perma jam all 4. Id say its survivability is pretty ******* good!
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#464 - 2012-11-19 12:55:48 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:

NO ship should have that impact.


Tbh, TDs are far worse unless you are in a missile ship.
So'Cari
Dark Venture Corporation
#465 - 2012-11-19 13:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: So'Cari
Nova Satar wrote:
[...] the new ECCM type skills are MUCH NEEDED!

I've yet to see anyone give a coherent, let alone convincing, argument for the introduction of ECCM-like skills. All they do is change the weighting on a dice roll. They don't give players new abilities (in the sense of options where the player makes a positive choice which determines their actions).

Of course you're always likely to have some mechanics which boil down to:

My stat x is bigger than your stat y, so I win.

but good game design will still leave room for the size of x and y to be determined by players' choices.

EVE already has that mechanic with respect to ECM: ECCM modules (& less commonly T3 electronics subsystems and/or gang links). I can decide whether or not to fit one, but I'm also free to change that decision before, after, and even during a fight. Whatever I choose will involve making sacrifices elsewhere and in EVE more than other games you also have the intel-war and heavy, heavy meta-gaming. These are all, IMO, good things.

Passive skills which do nothing but give a buff to any and all ships (of a particular race) regardless of ship type, fitting, gang-composition etc. are not good things. If everyone has to train them then a flat reduction of ECM strength achieves the same thing without unnecessarily punishing new players with more important skills to train, or heavily cross-trained characters (who aren't all 100m SP + bittervets).

On top of that there are all the other concerns (e.g. the impact on scanning) which have been raised. I won't repeat them since their force is quite clear:

With all these potential pitfalls, the case for ECCM-like skills needs to be very strong. So far it has not been made at all.


Two lines of argument I would accept:
- Introducing these skills is not actually about ECM. It's actually part of the general trend towards making generalisation/cross-training harder.
I don't like this, but it's a fair argument. If it's this then CCP should just say so.

- The skills are actually paving the way for a new ECM mechanic (perhaps reducing the number of targets you can manage?) and will play a more active role after the final changes.
Again, I think this order would be a bad idea but as an argument it's sound.
Ctzn Snips
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#466 - 2012-11-19 14:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ctzn Snips
So'Cari wrote:

Passive skills which give a buff to any and all ships (of a particular race) regardless of ship type, fitting, gang-composition etc. are not good things. If everyone has to train them then a flat reduction of ECM strength achieves the same thing without unnecessarily punishing new players with more important skills to train, or heavily cross-trained characters (who aren't all 100m SP + bittervets).



You're right, they should get rid of Engineering, Electronics, Spaceship Command, Navigation, Targeting, Long Range Targeting, Multitasking, Signature Analysis, Energy Management, Energy Systems Operations, Shield Management, Hull Upgrades, Mechanics, Evasive Maneuvering, Warp Drive Operation, and all the other skills that buff any and all ships regardless of type, fitting, gang composition, etc.
So'Cari
Dark Venture Corporation
#467 - 2012-11-19 16:06:20 UTC
Ctzn Snips wrote:
So'Cari wrote:

Passive skills which give a buff to any and all ships (of a particular race) regardless of ship type, fitting, gang-composition etc. are not good things. If everyone has to train them then a flat reduction of ECM strength achieves the same thing without unnecessarily punishing new players with more important skills to train, or heavily cross-trained characters (who aren't all 100m SP + bittervets).



You're right, they should get rid of Engineering, Electronics, Spaceship Command, Navigation, Targeting, Long Range Targeting, Multitasking, Signature Analysis, Energy Management, Energy Systems Operations, Shield Management, Hull Upgrades, Mechanics, Evasive Maneuvering, Warp Drive Operation, and all the other skills that buff any and all ships regardless of type, fitting, gang composition, etc.

Previous post edited for clarity. Most of those skills have an additional function such as enabling the fitting of new/better modules or letting the player do things to more people at a given point in time.

Actually I'd have no objection if CCP wanted to remove e.g. Spaceship Command (though a Rank 1 skill which gives 2% agility / level and starts at level 3 on every new character is not a problem worth fussing over).

There are lots of other things which could be said here (making mistakes in the past is no reason to repeat them in the future; possibly the upheaval of rectifying a bad design can be more trouble than its worth etc.) but all of that is detracting from the main point:

No coherent case has been made that the introduction of new skills is necessary for the re-balancing of ECM.

It would be much more interesting to hear why you think new skills are a good thing (if you do think that) rather than circling around the background motivation for my position.
Nova Satar
Annihilate.
#468 - 2012-11-19 16:17:40 UTC
So'Cari wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:
[...] the new ECCM type skills are MUCH NEEDED!

I've yet to see anyone give a coherent, let alone convincing, argument for the introduction of ECCM-like skills. All they do is change the weighting on a dice roll. They don't give players new abilities (in the sense of options where the player makes a positive choice which determines their actions).


Skills don't exist just so you can use new modules....

Committing time to training a skill to reduce the chance of being jammed out of a fight is all the reason you need.

Its like saying whats the point in fitting an eccm as its just a dice roll mod. Or whats the point in fitting a jammer as its just a dice roll mod. Whats the point in training probing skills? etc

The argument is simple. ECM is incredibly over powered, if there is a way to bring it back in line, and try to gain atleast SOME chance to counter it, then it is a worthy new skill. As currently i would say out of every 10 small gang fights i find myself in, im spending atleast 8 of them jammed, permanently!

It doesnt bother people in 0.0, and in a 50 man gang, the chances you are the person jammed are much smaller, this isnt due to skills, mods, fittings or pilot skill, its just becuase he cant jam everyone! Whereas in a 6 man gang, he actually CAN jam everyone.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#469 - 2012-11-19 16:21:42 UTC
So'Cari wrote:
Previous post edited for clarity. Most of those skills have an additional function such as enabling the fitting of new/better modules or letting the player do things to more people at a given point in time.

Actually I'd have no objection if CCP wanted to remove e.g. Spaceship Command (though a Rank 1 skill which gives 2% agility / level and starts at level 3 on every new character is not a problem worth fussing over).

There are lots of other things which could be said here (making mistakes in the past is no reason to repeat them in the future; possibly the upheaval of rectifying a bad design can be more trouble than its worth etc.) but all of that is detracting from the main point:

That's why I think the best fix to ECM would be a way to make sensor strength, or at least ECCM, more useful in a general case.

@OT : in fact, we agree then, except that Ihave more faith in CCP. :-)
So'Cari
Dark Venture Corporation
#470 - 2012-11-19 17:23:22 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:

Skills don't exist just so you can use new modules....

Committing time to training a skill to reduce the chance of being jammed out of a fight is all the reason you need.

Its like saying whats the point in fitting an eccm as its just a dice roll mod. Or whats the point in fitting a jammer as its just a dice roll mod. Whats the point in training probing skills? etc

The argument is simple. ECM is incredibly over powered, if there is a way to bring it back in line, and try to gain atleast SOME chance to counter it, then it is a worthy new skill. As currently i would say out of every 10 small gang fights i find myself in, im spending atleast 8 of them jammed, permanently!

It doesnt bother people in 0.0, and in a 50 man gang, the chances you are the person jammed are much smaller, this isnt due to skills, mods, fittings or pilot skill, its just becuase he cant jam everyone! Whereas in a 6 man gang, he actually CAN jam everyone.

I completely agree that ECM needs changing. Most players agree and clearly CCP agree, hence their proposed changes.

But like a lot of people, I think that introducing new skills is a bad way to go about it. Rather than posting in great detail about my reasons (I've said enough a few posts above) here's another way to highlight the problem:

Why do you think that introducing new skills to sensor strength is a better solution than simply further reducing ECM strength?
Meytal
Doomheim
#471 - 2012-11-19 20:16:40 UTC
After the change, ECM will still be crazy good. Even if it beats the odds and hits, it can change the course of battle because it is an all-or-nothing kind of effect. Instead of being incrementally effective, ECM use is either devastating or laughable.

ECM really targets two aspects of targeting: max number of targets, and the ability to reacquire a target lock. Presently, if successful, max targets is reduced to 0, and by definition no new targets may be locked.

It was briefly mentioned before, but what if partial success were possible? I may not achieve complete success on a jam cycle, but suppose I am able to break 4 out of my target's 6 locks? And since I wasn't completely successful at jamming, maybe the target can reacquire locks after 10-15 seconds, instead of the full cycle. I should be able to fit scripts that either boost the number of target locks that I break or boost the length of time I prevent my target from reacquiring locks.

This concept could be extended to drones as well, though the effects should be significantly diminished; if partial successes are possible, drones can be scaled in this manner, as opposed to the present time. A new drone module could be scripted to affect ECM drone characteristics as well.

ECM should also affect the target's drones since, in theory, the ship is still controlling the drone's activities; drone targets should be valid "targets" for ECM modules and drones. FoF drones could be a cute counter, making me think of the bullets in Who Framed Roger Rabbit :)

* Note, affecting drone targeting should only happen in the context of POS ECM balancing (read: nerfing), since that is the only counter to POS ECM available to w-space C4-C1 residents.

The difficulty for a full jam could even be increased to make it more difficult in light of partial successes, particularly since a completely successful jam should ultimately reduce max targets to 0, force your drones to lose their targets as well, and prevent you from reacquiring any target lock for a full cycle.

The proposed racial ECM-defense skills need not be implemented (for all the reasons already mentioned). ECCM would be more generally useful as ECM is no longer all-or-nothing. Unbonused application might be useful in a GTFO mechanic, as you might get lucky and break the lock of the person scramming you.

Ctzn Snips
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#472 - 2012-11-19 21:58:31 UTC
So'Cari wrote:
Ctzn Snips wrote:
[quote=So'Cari]
Passive skills which give a buff to any and all ships (of a particular race) regardless of ship type, fitting, gang-composition etc. are not good things. If everyone has to train them then a flat reduction of ECM strength achieves the same thing without unnecessarily punishing new players with more important skills to train, or heavily cross-trained characters (who aren't all 100m SP + bittervets).



No coherent case has been made that the introduction of new skills is necessary for the re-balancing of ECM.

It would be much more interesting to hear why you think new skills are a good thing (if you do think that) rather than circling around the background motivation for my position.


If you hate getting jammed, or the usual people you fight fly ECM ships, then train the skills. If you train the skills and still get jammed every fight, get a Spur set (But what about my Slaves?!?!). I won't suggest fitting ECCM, that's just a waste of a slot in my opinion. I believe they are introducing them as a minor nerf to ECM without actually touching it. While it is a slippery slope that buffing/nerfing isn't really "balancing" I think CCP has been doing it long enough to know what can happen.
So'Cari
Dark Venture Corporation
#473 - 2012-11-19 23:00:12 UTC
Ctzn Snips wrote:
Stuff

Same question to you as I posted to Nova Satar above:

Why do you think that introducing new skills to boost sensor strength is a better solution than simply further reducing ECM strength?

Bear in mind that the 'new skills' route:
- Is significantly more demanding for new players
- Is significantly more demanding for heavily cross-trained players
- Will effect probing to such a degree that Devs will need to monitor it and perhaps adjust the probing formula at a later date

So you really need to have a much better case than 'If you hate getting jammed ... then train the skills' (I'm sure there are plenty of players who love getting jammed and thus will not need to train these skills Roll)
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#474 - 2012-11-19 23:54:59 UTC
There are a lot of unintended consequences of making ecm too weak or as some propose, completely nerfed into oblivion. If ECM gets too weak then the big fleets supported by a few logi's suddenly get a lot tougher to take down and it becomes a sheer contest of either who can win the DPS/Alpha war, or perhaps neuting battle. And thus encouraging more blobbing. Sure, if logi is at distance then sensor damps can play a part, now more so with the buff to damps, but logi will just change tactics and stay in tight. Kiting Logi/shield groups will become even more difficult to beat using that tactic.
Your only option will be to neut armor logi. And those Archon's! An Archon with a built in ECCM, just great. We will see far less of them need to go into triage and get caught/blown up etc etc because they are getting ecm'd out. So much for asymmetric warfare.

So while I won't argue that ECM needed to be pulled back a bit, that is certain, I don't think it should be an over board nerf because ewar is a force multiplier that can allow smaller forces to get an advantage over a superior one. Without these tools, then its just blunt force vs blunt force, which while fun a times can get a bit stale no?
Lord Calus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#475 - 2012-11-20 15:26:51 UTC
Please introduce more skills that HAVE to be trained so I can be competitive.

How about "Ship Acceleration", which allows you to go from 0 to max speed 5% faster per level? Gotta be a rank 6 Cha/Mem though.

I got one!! "Cargo Sorting", allows you to move an additional 1k m^3 per drag, and we need to limit all weight drag operations artifically down to 1k m^3 base so this skill makes sense!!

And for the lolz, lets add "Racial Dictation", which allows you to speak each race's language, since you only know your own. Rank 5 allows you to understand everyone just like right now!!

Give me a break.
OT Smithers
Perkone
Caldari State
#476 - 2012-11-20 16:45:05 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:
its been a long time coming, but these changes to ECM and the new ECCM type skills are MUCH NEEDED!

Currently ECM in empire and low-sec is nothing short of an absolute joke.

I know its hard for people in big blob gangs to comprehend, but when you are trying to solo, or pvp in a gang of 5 or less, and you see falcon, its normally game over. NO ship should have that impact. Yes i realise it can sometimes be countered if the guys an idiot, but 99/100 he will be gone by the time you are within 60km of him, and he'll back back in 10 seconds at another point.

Another problem is that minmatar jammers for example, can still be used on gall ships, yes its much weaker i know, but it still works. Much to the downfall of the solo pvper..... as you are getting 7 jammers on you regardless, and you will not be locking anything until you die. A change that allows racial jammers to be used only on that races ships would be a good change.

All in all though this is a good step forward, atleast its giving us a ******* chance. Im sorry but if these pilots want to feel involved, maybe they should just come and get in the fight like everyone else, rather than sitting at 100km with absolute immunity!



This is all arguably true. HOWEVER...

ECM is binary. It either works reliably or it fails completely. A change which removes an ECM ship's ability to reliably jam out its targets is a change which renders ECM ships obsolete -- particularly in small gang PvP where every pilot matters. Consider as well that, due to the way jams are calculated, even small changes in sensor strength can have a significant impact on ECM reliability. A 25% increase in sensor strength can change an entire battle from one in which a racial jammer reliably prema-jams an enemy, to one in which that correct racial jammer never successfully jams the enemy at all.

Other EWAR does not suffer under this binary effect. Nor is that EWAR the foundation of racial fleet doctrine as it is with the Caldari and ECM. A sensor dampener ALWAYS works, a target painter always works, a tracking disruptor always works, webs and neuts and warp disruptors always work. They might not decide a battle, but they always have some negative effect on the target. ECM either works or it does nothing, and in the cases where it does nothing the ECM ship has nothing else it can contribute. Something that cannot be said for the other EWAR ships.

It's understandable that you would like to see ECM no longer matter. You would probably say that you don't want it removed completely from the game, you just don't want ECM deciding the winner of your battles.

This seems to be the route that CCP has chosen. They are seemingly not going to remove and replace ECM with something more interesting and less irritating, they are just going to break it. They are trying for that impossibly thin line where ECM doesn't really matter any more, but where Caldari players don't demand a fix for their then broken EWAR.
Grunnax Aurelius
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#477 - 2012-11-21 15:04:23 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
No seriously, just remove all EW drones for now too. ECM is, has been, and from the looks of it, will remain the worst game mechanic in the history of all MMO games.

Locking a target is 99% of everything when it comes to combat. Why you decided to introduce a mechanic that removes players from the game for 20+ seconds at a time is dumber than a box of ****.


Fly a Caldari Missile Boat and carry FoF Missiles in the Cargo, ECM can't stop that, there's your answer. And ECM does not need removing from the game quit whining about ECM, i love listening to people like you throw tantrums about ECM because I use it quite a lot , and it is how I counter better fitted ships. It is in the game for a reason, to be used.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#478 - 2012-11-21 17:43:18 UTC
Oh look CCP made a new learning skill, that everyone has to train.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Lili Lu
#479 - 2012-11-21 23:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Oh look CCP made a new learning skill, that everyone has to train.

Yeah a new learning skill, just like Long Range Targeting, Signature Analysis, etc. is a learning skill. Roll
habloo bloo
Doomheim
#480 - 2012-11-22 02:31:50 UTC
ECM itself is completely OP and broken, a single falcon can effectivley disable a small gang/Solo pvp'er. Ecm needs to be removed from the game completely, no other ewar can disable you in the way that ECM can. Taking it out of the game or at least nerfing it to run more in line with other forms of ewar (i.e effective but not completely disabling ) would be a ballsy but excellent move.