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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

First post First post
Author
Splatacus
Cordata Enterprises
#1061 - 2011-10-20 13:13:41 UTC
If I understand this correctly this will have the following effects:


High sec PI will be profitable - not because of the yield of the planets but the increased price of PI products and the risk-free farmville-game that continues.

Low sec PI will be ignored since the cost / hassle of setting up a Custom's office and the inability to defend it will make it a virtual pinata for anyone with guns.

null-sec will be where PI will be farmed by virtual or real bots who encounter zero risk and due to price rises earn massive rewards

WH will be mostly unchanged since bringing down a customs office will - hopefully - take a lot of firepower and stamina - unless you want to take over a WH, not worth doing. And if you want to take over a WH, why bother taking out the Customsoffice at all - you need to clear the POS first.


On balance - I think C1/C2 WH with reasonable access to empire and nullsec massive alliances with dedicated slaves / industrial corps will gain most

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1062 - 2011-10-20 13:15:03 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
One thing I don't think anyone else has mentioned (but can't be bothered to read the last 20 pages), is that "100% tax" is far from 100% of market price. It's 12k isk for P3 items (such as robotics, currently 70k market price), and just 180 isk por P2 (such as coolant, uranium, mech parts, currently around 10k on market).

The only exception is P4 items where 100% tax is 1 million isk.


That's part of the underlying issue (the following assumes a 5% tax rate being equivalent to today's prices and is using the current export tax amounts, and before the current price spike):

- Taxes on P0 are 0.10 on items that are worth about 1.00-2.00 ISK (so a 5-10% tax rate).
- P1 pays 0.76 ISK on stuff that is worth 300-500 ISK (before the price spike), or about 0.15-0.25% tax rate
- P2 pays 9 ISK and is worth 2500-4000, about a 0.22-0.36% tax rate
- P3 pays 600 ISK on stuff that sells for 25000-45000, a 1.3-2.4% rate
- P4 pays 50,000 ISK on stuff that sells for 600k to 1100k, 4.5% to 8.3% rate

P4 is going to be hit extra hard by the tax increase because its tax rates were already far about those of the other products. While P1 taxes are so low that even at 100%, a POCO can't pay for itself in less then 2-3 months. Generally, only foolish people exported P0, so I'm ignoring that.

If a 5% tax on P1 was about 5x above what we currently pay on P1 export taxes and P2 taxes were also increased about 4x, then POCOs would make a lot more economic sense for P1 harvest planets (which is predominantly what you see in lo-sec) and the P0->P2 harvest planets where people turn (2) P0 into a P2 to reduce haul volume (which is the other type of planet colony you usually see in lo-sec).

Taxes on P4 need to be dropped by about 2x before the new tax rate rolls out. (Basically, given historical prices, all tiers should be paying about a 1% tax at the 5% mark.)
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1063 - 2011-10-20 13:32:08 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
P4 is going to be hit extra hard by the tax increase because its tax rates were already far about those of the other products. While P1 taxes are so low that even at 100%, a POCO can't pay for itself in less then 2-3 months. Generally, only foolish people exported P0, so I'm ignoring that.


On the other hand, I don't think you can do P4 all in one planet, so I'd expect it to be produced in highsec factory planets, largely unaffected by this.

Quote:
If a 5% tax on P1 was about 5x above what we currently pay on P1 export taxes and P2 taxes were also increased about 4x, then POCOs would make a lot more economic sense for P1 harvest planets (which is predominantly what you see in lo-sec) and the P0->P2 harvest planets where people turn (2) P0 into a P2 to reduce haul volume (which is the other type of planet colony you usually see in lo-sec).


Whats the usual yield (units/day) of those lowsec harvest planets?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1064 - 2011-10-20 13:40:02 UTC
Some responses to issues in general:

Blinking wallet intel: It's the corp wallet that will increase, not a player's. I don't think your average corp member's wallet icon blinks for corporate account balance changes. To gather the intel, someone with corp wallet access would have to be watching their corp wallet window. Otherwise, it makes perfect sense that you'd see the records of who accessed your CO and when. There's nothing stealthy about "docking up" a hauler at a customs office and loading up. Non-Issue.

Low-sec PI will be hard: Boo-hoo. Join a corp, stay in hisec, or man up and play the game. Low-sec is empire space that empire doesn't bother to police. It's not supposed to be easy afk income.

Prices will go up: Yep, and then more people will get into either hi-sec PI because it's easy and more profitable than before, or they'll start building low-sec COs when they become cost-effective and really reap the profits. The market will find a balance between supply and demand.

You can't change it now, we're already used to the cushy life: Get over it. Ship hit points changed. Nano-nerf happened. Minmatar guns got buffed. Cap ships are continually evolving. The game changes, adapt or die.

But everyone will leave!: This isn't a game-breaking Nex gold ammo issue, it's just CCP moving your cheese. You'll adapt or someone will take your place in the production line when the money is there to be made. Hi-sec is still "safe" if you can't swim in the deep water where the sharks are. Concord will hold your hand there and make it all better.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Isabella Thresher
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1065 - 2011-10-20 13:44:13 UTC
q1: can we defend our customs office in lowsec without taking a standing hit?

q2: can we use the custom office on a corporate level now, or will it still be single player?

if both answers are NO, then this change will suck....
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1066 - 2011-10-20 13:46:06 UTC
Arra Lith wrote:
Players Customs Offices are great, but CCP needs to add some protection against griefing.


You mean you want additional protection besides recruiting more players, joining a corp, joining an alliance, joining a coalition, hiring mercs...? Might I also remind you that what you call "griefing" actually falls within CCP's definition of acceptable conduct.

This game has plenty of carebears who are smart enough to find a way to profit no matter what you throw at them. They will continue to put their PI products on the market (made in wormholes, nullsec and lowsec) and they'll sell for higher prices because weaker or less-organised carebears give up.

I suspect my alliance will aggressively persaude people not to drop customs offices in the systems we live in but, like any alliance, we can be stopped if you bring moar bigger gunz. Personally, I'll be lobbying for neutral entities to be allowed access to our customs offices with a sensible tax rate (after all, our own warbears will be using those planets, too).
Dr Mercy
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1067 - 2011-10-20 13:47:23 UTC
Isabella Thresher wrote:
q1: can we defend our customs office in lowsec without taking a standing hit?

q2: can we use the custom office on a corporate level now, or will it still be single player?

if both answers are NO, then this change will suck....


This is a good point. Does shooting a PCO give an aggression timer to the owning corp? If not then the defenders will have to lose sec status AND go GCC just to engage the attackers.

Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets

Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
#1068 - 2011-10-20 13:49:02 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
P4 is going to be hit extra hard by the tax increase because its tax rates were already far about those of the other products. While P1 taxes are so low that even at 100%, a POCO can't pay for itself in less then 2-3 months. Generally, only foolish people exported P0, so I'm ignoring that.


On the other hand, I don't think you can do P4 all in one planet, so I'd expect it to be produced in highsec factory planets, largely unaffected by this.


It all depends. I run a high sec factory planet, but my harvesting planets are in a low sec border system. For me it makes sense. However, if I were to live deeper in low sec (say farther into Aridia), I'm not so sure I would travel that far to populate factories, I'd likely build one in or near system.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1069 - 2011-10-20 13:51:27 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Quote:
If a 5% tax on P1 was about 5x above what we currently pay on P1 export taxes and P2 taxes were also increased about 4x, then POCOs would make a lot more economic sense for P1 harvest planets (which is predominantly what you see in lo-sec) and the P0->P2 harvest planets where people turn (2) P0 into a P2 to reduce haul volume (which is the other type of planet colony you usually see in lo-sec).


Whats the usual yield (units/day) of those lowsec harvest planets?


Well, for every BIF that you can keep busy on a P1 planet, you're looking at 960 units/day of P1 output. Hi-sec planets generally keep 2-4 BIFs busy, the number I tend to hear bandied about for lo-sec is that their P1 harvest planets keep 5-7 BIFs busy and more like 8-12 BIFs in null-sec / w-space.

For P2/P3 factory worlds, you're generally looking at either a 3+18 (LPs+AIFs) up through about a 2+24 setup. A single P2 AIF puts out 120/day, a single P3 AIF outputs 72/day.
Eowarian D
ED-Technics
#1070 - 2011-10-20 14:03:56 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:
If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons.


You are exactly right. People will attack these POCO to provoke more fights so CCP are creating new battle fields in addition to people just fighting on stations, gates and belts.


I agree on that.
But then... Shouldn't CCP focus on the lag monster first, especially for the fleet fights, before creating new systems to provoke fleet fights? That time dilation feature won't do the trick, I'm afraid, or won't be enough.
Dr Mercy
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1071 - 2011-10-20 14:27:50 UTC
Dr Mercy wrote:
Isabella Thresher wrote:
q1: can we defend our customs office in lowsec without taking a standing hit?

q2: can we use the custom office on a corporate level now, or will it still be single player?

if both answers are NO, then this change will suck....


This is a good point. Does shooting a PCO give an aggression timer to the owning corp? If not then the defenders will have to lose sec status AND go GCC just to engage the attackers.


I've realised that the agression likely works the same way as attacking a POS. GCC unless you are at war.

Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1072 - 2011-10-20 14:45:28 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:

Whats the usual yield (units/day) of those lowsec harvest planets?


Well, for every BIF that you can keep busy on a P1 planet, you're looking at 960 units/day of P1 output. Hi-sec planets generally keep 2-4 BIFs busy, the number I tend to hear bandied about for lo-sec is that their P1 harvest planets keep 5-7 BIFs busy and more like 8-12 BIFs in null-sec / w-space.


I confirmed this roughly on Sisi with my alt (horribly underskilled in PI). This means at 100% tax, you get a maximum of 100k/day per lowsec colony (the effective tax rate over market value should be around 4%). It takes forever to recover the POCO investment that way. Over three months with a horribly optimistic 10 colonies per planet.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1073 - 2011-10-20 15:02:10 UTC
(This is going to be a controversial statement...)

If hi-sec POCOs only charge a 10% tariff, then lo-sec POCos will not be able to compete and will not be attractive at all.

Hi-Sec POCOs are going to need to have about a 75% tariff, with the option to reduce that tariff (in hi-sec) using a combination of standings w/ the faction that controls that system and another skill like Broker Relations. With 10.0 standings and POCO Relations V, you should be able to shave the tariff down to about 50%. Which will enable lo-sec POCOs to have room to undercut the hi-sec tariffs.

The base tariffs on P4 need to be cut in half, and the base tariffs on P1 & P2 need to go up about 4x-5x.

Make sure that any UI elements call it a "Tariff" and not a "Tax rate".
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1074 - 2011-10-20 15:04:50 UTC
Isabella Thresher wrote:
q1: can we defend our customs office in lowsec without taking a standing hit?


Attacking a customs office in lowsec will give you GCC so anyone can shoot you, from the owning corp or otherwise.

Isabella Thresher wrote:
q2: can we use the custom office on a corporate level now, or will it still be single player?


Everyone from the owning corp may use the customs office but the inventory inside it, like PI, are stored per player.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1075 - 2011-10-20 15:16:27 UTC
@CCP Nullabor:

Any thoughts as to the concerns players are having with regards to, for example, our PI being completely broken if the current customs offices are destroyed? We can't laumch goods... our command centers aren't connected to the PI chain which has migrated around the planet with the resources. Those of us in wormholes... we're not running incursions or in FW, so we're completely cut off from the BPCs, fully dependent on entirely different groups of people. We also have a boatload of planets that would all need these things... ten in my hole alone... in order to function properly. Having to come up with either ten BPCs at non-insane prices (or worse, ten of these structures off the market) and build and/or move to position then upgrade... this is going to cause some quite significant hardships.

They definitely need to be much more accessible, especially for folks that simply aren't in a position in any way, shape or form to farm the LP needed for them.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

TheGunzo
TheCorporation
DevilBear
#1076 - 2011-10-20 15:23:24 UTC
I think folks have hit on most of the CO concerns.

For me, if 5x will be applied to grid on the planet, we'll be stripping these things fast. Right now with just a dozen people in a 0.0 system, we're seeing the resources dwindle very quickly. I can't imagine multiplying this by 5! I know, the goal is to produce more complex items on one planet and that's cool.

It's just we're seeing planets go 'dry' very quickly in 0.0 as it is today...

Gunzo
Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
#1077 - 2011-10-20 15:34:09 UTC
TheGunzo wrote:
I think folks have hit on most of the CO concerns.

For me, if 5x will be applied to grid on the planet, we'll be stripping these things fast. Right now with just a dozen people in a 0.0 system, we're seeing the resources dwindle very quickly. I can't imagine multiplying this by 5! I know, the goal is to produce more complex items on one planet and that's cool.

It's just we're seeing planets go 'dry' very quickly in 0.0 as it is today...

Gunzo


That's not how I'm reading it, unless in the rest of the comments flying about this thread there is more from CCP than the following blurb from the devblog.

Quote:

Oh and one more thing, we have increased the bandwidth on all planetary links by a factor of five! Get those materials flowing!


I read that as an increase in the capacity of links between structures, not the total cpu/PG of the planet. While not having to pay extra PG bandwidth to upgrade a link will allow more extraction (in theory, depends on your links I guess) I don't think it will allow the massive buildup in planetary strip mining you think is coming.
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#1078 - 2011-10-20 15:34:28 UTC
TheGunzo wrote:
I think folks have hit on most of the CO concerns.

For me, if 5x will be applied to grid on the planet, we'll be stripping these things fast. Right now with just a dozen people in a 0.0 system, we're seeing the resources dwindle very quickly. I can't imagine multiplying this by 5! I know, the goal is to produce more complex items on one planet and that's cool.

It's just we're seeing planets go 'dry' very quickly in 0.0 as it is today...

Gunzo


Links bandwidth, not grid.
bilingi
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1079 - 2011-10-20 15:41:41 UTC
funny al the ones supporting this the majority anyway,.... all seem to be in RMT allaices which claim they dont do it or bot... yet the Game map proves them wrong....


As for theman up HAHAH from people who dont undock unless tere are 200 other allince memebers onShockedShocked Or Run for the dock if a non blue is in system Pirate
Yorinar
Fred Corp
#1080 - 2011-10-20 16:11:16 UTC
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:
[quote=Sessym][quote=Ra Voreen]
Incorrect. While previously-created planetary structures remained accessible if your alliance lost sov, you cannot place a command center on a 0.0 planet if your alliance does not hold sov in the system. (Thus, no PI in NPC 0.0).


You can do PI in npc space. YOu can also do it in unclaimed systems.