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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Internet Knight
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#1021 - 2011-10-20 07:14:00 UTC
Like: Yay player owned and controlled stuff!!!!
Dislike: More ::effort:: for industry guys? Really? *sadface*
Like: Factor of 5 increase on links??? OMG, can now **** planetary production in 0.0/wh without the resulting assramming of powergrid! *love*

Result: +1 Like!!! \o/


So, now more technical stuff, I'm sure it's been asked already but I haven't had a chance to read the thread yet. Poke me to correct answers if so:

I assume materials cannot be imported/exported if the structure is in reinforced mode, yes? What about if it's simply under attack? What about if it's come out of reinforced mode but not yet repaired?

How many hitpoints?

Is it possible to view people's assets in the storage, similar to how outpost owners can view other corporations' assets? Can their stuff be taken similar to how outpost owners can repossess other corporations' "abandoned" assets?

Can taxes be different per level of friendliness? Eg, reddits get 100% tax, neutral get 5% tax, friendlies get 1% tax, allies get 0% tax, etc?


And now there's dragonsex here. :D
Jade Nexia
CHON
THE R0NIN
#1022 - 2011-10-20 07:47:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Nexia
This.

Meldan Anstian wrote:
Lin Fatale wrote:


Why not take this Idea and add some real dynamic and small scale pvp to the game?
POCO HP = 500.000 HP => can be rfed by a 10 men roaming gang in 15 min
=> enough time to form a counter fleet
POCO Costs = 20 mil ISK => also small corps or people in lowsec can drop 10 of it in a system
POCO drops everything if it dies => roaming gang get a fight or some ISK
=> its not the end of the world for the PI owner




I put up a POCO for 20 mil ISK. As the owner of the POCO, what am I risking by loosing the POCO other than the POCO's cost itself? The PI materials? They aren't mine, I don't care.

If I form a counter fleet and land on the 10 man roaming fleet attacking my POCO, and I loose 1 ship and sustain a loss of over 20 mil ISK from the battle, I would have been better to not defend the POCO at all and just put up a new one.

If the 10 man gang puts it in RF mode, I come in to rep it. I am risking a ship, probably worth atleast 20 mil, to repair something less expensive then my ship I am flying. Again, let em blow it up, why risk a ship more expensive than what it's repairing?

The owner of the PI materials in the POCO presumably would not get an notification that a POCO with my stuff is being attacked. If they did, why would they bother to defend it? It's not my POCO. If loosing my stuff in a POCO happened often enough, I keep my materials on the launch pad and only move it to the POCO when I come in system to pick it up. So the roaming gang really wouldnt get ISK, since PI owners wouldn't keep their stuff in a POCO.

If we go the other way, and make a POCO very expensive and therefore worth defending, the payback time on the investment goes way up as well. Raising taxes to a point that the payback time is reasonable, raises the cost of Pi to unreasonable rates, and makes it worthwhile to avoid the POCO and just launch stuff into space avoiding the taxes entirely.

I agree with what this idea is trying to achieve. I simply do not see a way to make it feasible in the game.


and this.

Meldan Anstian wrote:
The only way I see this working.....

1. Keep all CO's not in high sec non destructible as they are now.

2. However, you can attack them as originally put forth in the blog... attack it, put into RF mode, come back in 24 hours and "destroy it". When you "destroy" it, you are really gaining ownership of it, not really destroying it.

3. You then can set taxes as you wish. Too high and people either move to another planet or just use launches to avoid your taxes. Too low and you get swamped with people trying to save money on taxes, but resources on the planet are depleted very quickly, hurting everyone's income.

4. No matter what state the CO is in, you can go up to it and get resources out of it, and risk getting your ass blown off too.

5. Maybe make it so that you can't lock out people in low sec with standings, but you can in WH and null sec? I don't know, would want feedback from people before deciding on this definitively if I were CCP.

6. The tariff's would work the same as planned in the blog.

7. CO's would stay in NPC ownership until attacked and "destroyed".


You get the original intent of getting income via planetary taxation, and also the increased player-to-player interaction.

You avoid the problems of trying to get a return on investment of a destructible structure. The CO's become somewhat worthwhile to defend since you would loose whatever income it generated. They would become somewhat worthwhile to attack to gain the income from the CO.

The effect on the overall economy is much much easier to understand and predict, and certainly not as dramatic.

It avoids the vacuum of CO's just after implementation as originally planned.

The only problem I see is that the 10-20 mill ISK income per month... isn't really worth fighting much over.


Simply, both of you sum it up. New POCO will not work at all. Either way if it will become cheap there will not be any reason to defend it. If become expensive it will stop PI products flow. PI isn't profitable enough to justify average 5 x high-cost initial investment, for something what could be blown up, if you aren't able defend it 24/7.


BTW: if new POCO would be able block access to PI like outpost are able to block docking rights, then it will be only tool for abusing BLOB power, which is really bad for EVE comunity. Bully's heaven is what we wish for EVE?
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1023 - 2011-10-20 07:50:36 UTC
Korvin wrote:
Yeah.
All that this game was needed is a lots-of-HP-structure-with-a-reinforce to shoot at for 5 hours every day. Lol


I can't help but ... agree /sarcasm

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1024 - 2011-10-20 08:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
CCP Omen wrote:


It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.

Regards
Omen


That is not the POINT.

Being in a solo corp is BORING.
Being in another corp means you propably do NOT HAVE the ROLES.

Why is it so difficult to understand? CCP should maybe play their own game more. How many CCP people play eve in a solo corp?

At the very least, improve corp roles and make it so you can assign access rights individually to each piece of corp property.

CCP Omen wrote:

CONCORD (or someone) demands that all Customs Offices are always visible on the Overview per default no matter who owns them.


And what did Concord have to do in nullsec, let alone wormhole space? What?

CCP Omen wrote:
Orakkus wrote:


Your comment earlier indicates that you would still be able to withdraw materials even in reinforced mode, which means that any physical reward to taking one of these down is pretty minor, and that even the tactical or strategic reward would be very minor at best.


Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one.


Then you will propably forget to add a feature that allows corp to transfer ownership of CO to another corp..

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Minamel
Perkone
Caldari State
#1025 - 2011-10-20 08:15:55 UTC
I in general like the changes.
Could be interesting even if it will be harder to get some shiny Pi mats.

What i am affraid off, is removing Storage of Launchpads.
Power on planets is short with all setups. If Power and Cpucost stays the same you will have to add one or more storages and i hope that for removing storage of Launchpads they will lower the Power requirements a bit that the overall setup costs dont rise too much.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#1026 - 2011-10-20 08:19:43 UTC
Overall this is good change for bigger alliances.

Current PI system did not produce any profits for them.

This game is really favoring those alliances anyway, if we think what moon mining is practise:

You setup pos which produce goods for you were you online or not, and that is legit.

CCP is fightning against macro miners who try to do same in smaller scale on belts.

Now these customs offices will bring more money to those who setup new 'bot' to collect taxes.

So what i am trying to say is that CCP provides some kind of botting services for those who can and can afford to setup moon mining pos or custom offices.

CCP should really get rid of this kind of mechanics not to produce more of those.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1027 - 2011-10-20 08:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
XavierVE wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:
Raziphan Rebular wrote:

Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over.


That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.

Regards
Omen


I don't mean to be rude, though it may sound rude to ask... but do you play the game? In what age and era do 0.0 alliances do anything to "provide services" to those who aren't on their blue-lists? They will simply blow up the low-sec CO's they haven't set standings on in order to grief everyone who hasn't signed up to the biggest bluefest in EVE's history. No null entity will care about making a 9% tax profit off of these things, they will simply want them gone so they can corner the market on POS fuel production. Like the Russians or the Goons give a horse's ass about a small isk profit on low-sec CO's when they control tech moons. They will simply destroy to grief.

The state of 0.0 is so shite right now that Goons are camping Gallente ice fields out of pure bluefest boredom. It's not a matter of 0.0 alliances becoming even richer by monopolizing their nearby low sec CO's, it is that they will simply destroy them and replace them with nothing. And even if your scenario were true, no, that isn't "fine." Why are you trying to design a mechanic that simply allows the rich to get richer?

Nothing in this change helps small entities, and that you would say "if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this" almost sounds like a complete troll. You designed yet another HP-grind that will only benefit the blobfest while giving the average capsuleer even less incentive to dip their toe out of high sec.


I so wish I could double-like this post.

CCP Omen wrote:


You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? Question On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough.

If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.


Now its official, you have no idea whatsoever how eve works. Just the kind of person who I want to be in charge of making gameplay changes. Not.

The alliances don't care for peanuts when they are making 1000000x more money by other means which you so graciously awarded them with. They MAY care that the planet provides pos fuels to the enemy, and will therefore take down the office, put their own up and set tax to 100%. Or more propably just take it down if they dont need it. They deny resources to non-blue entities, period.

This change, like every one for the past 1,5 years or so (Ive lost count) directly benefits large alliances ONLY, since it gives them yet another mechanic they can use to oppress the weak.

Can all of CCP take a month off and just PLAY the game? Maybe you would get some revelations. It would certainly be an improvement in the quality of patches (not making them that is).

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Sylar McIntyr
Perkone
Caldari State
#1028 - 2011-10-20 08:41:25 UTC
Why didn't you implement something like this: Link

Would be moar awesome.
And why 10Mio eHP? that will just encourage more supercap blobs What?

Give everyone in the cluster a voice!
Solar Wander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1029 - 2011-10-20 09:01:13 UTC
Roll
Just another way of making smaller players lives harder yet again. Do something in 0.0 if you want but why stuff up what was running ok. Unless your in a Corps how are you meant to run a CO with out mutluple accts. So as a single player you start using one then the corp owner decides to pull it down, what happen to the stuff you have in storage?? Will it mean corp wont be able to tear it down until all stuff moved out.

Just leave the things alone surely there must be more pressing things you can tinker with. This side of P.I isn't broken you will just make it less attractive to do anything with P.I and the rich corps get richer and the small players get screwed yet again
Sashaaa
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#1030 - 2011-10-20 09:03:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sashaaa
Nyla Skin wrote:
XavierVE wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:
Raziphan Rebular wrote:

Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over.


That's not our intention, if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this. But honestly, what if a large alliance takes control of a CO and charge you 9% tax? Isn't that fine? they provide the service, you pay for it and it's cheaper than highsec? Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update.

Regards
Omen


I don't mean to be rude, though it may sound rude to ask... but do you play the game? In what age and era do 0.0 alliances do anything to "provide services" to those who aren't on their blue-lists? They will simply blow up the low-sec CO's they haven't set standings on in order to grief everyone who hasn't signed up to the biggest bluefest in EVE's history. No null entity will care about making a 9% tax profit off of these things, they will simply want them gone so they can corner the market on POS fuel production. Like the Russians or the Goons give a horse's ass about a small isk profit on low-sec CO's when they control tech moons. They will simply destroy to grief.

The state of 0.0 is so shite right now that Goons are camping Gallente ice fields out of pure bluefest boredom. It's not a matter of 0.0 alliances becoming even richer by monopolizing their nearby low sec CO's, it is that they will simply destroy them and replace them with nothing. And even if your scenario were true, no, that isn't "fine." Why are you trying to design a mechanic that simply allows the rich to get richer?

Nothing in this change helps small entities, and that you would say "if you are a small corp you are very much the focus of this" almost sounds like a complete troll. You designed yet another HP-grind that will only benefit the blobfest while giving the average capsuleer even less incentive to dip their toe out of high sec.


I so wish I could double-like this post.

CCP Omen wrote:


You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? Question On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough.

If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.


Now its official, you have no idea whatsoever how eve works. Just the kind of person who I want to be in charge of making gameplay changes. Not.

The alliances don't care for peanuts when they are making 1000000x more money by other means which you so graciously awarded them with. They MAY care that the planet provides pos fuels to the enemy, and will therefore take down the office, put their own up and set tax to 100%. Or more propably just take it down if they dont need it. They deny resources to non-blue entities, period.

This change, like every one for the past 1,5 years or so (Ive lost count) directly benefits large alliances ONLY, since it gives them yet another mechanic they can use to oppress the weak.

Can all of CCP take a month off and just PLAY the game? Maybe you would get some revelations. It would certainly be an improvement in the quality of patches (not making them that is).



For the love of all things Holy, please listen.

Isn't listening, what the new CCP does ?
Arra Lith
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1031 - 2011-10-20 09:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Arra Lith
Players Customs Offices are great, but CCP needs to add some protection against griefing.

Some group just want to screw someone else and decides to mount a gang and kill all COs in region. Few caps or bunch of BS can reinforce all COs in region in few hours (will take around minute per CO). Next day it will be impossible for defenders to defend all of them, so around 50-80% will get killed.

To attack CO it should require attacking side to first deploy their own Gantry to start "siege" working one. Anchoring and onlining time should be like 30 mins total - enough to alert some defenders so we can have battle, and short enough to not make attackers bored.
After working Customs Office is destroyed attackers can activate their own, which they used to start sieging process. Or if they want they can unanchor it.

That means griefing will be much harder (but not impossible), but if you want fight for control over planet it will change nothing, as you need your own Customs Office anyway.


Suggestion

1) There is no CO at planet: Anyone can anchor and online Costoms Office Gantry.

2) Once placed and upgraded to Customs Office it goes active to use and invulnerable.

3) To attack CO attackers need to anchor and online their own CO Gantry. It can be attacked immediatelly, and time to online should be short (15-30 mins - just enough to alert defenders so they can organise fleet)

4) When attackers Gantry onlines defenders CO goes vulnerable and can be attacked.

5-a) If attackers CO gets destroyed defenders CO goes back to invulnerable mode.
5-b) If defenders CO gets to 25% shields it goes invulnerable, as well as attackers CO.

6) After reinforce ends and defenders lose their own CO attackers have option to upgrade it from Gantry to working CO (and collect isk from taxes) - it then goes invulnerable (going back to step 2);
or they can unanchor their structure, leaving planet without CO (going back to step 1).

--edit--
There still can be only one working CO at same time. If second Gantry is anchored it cannot be accessed from planet - its used only to make active Customs Office vulnerable, (ie by breaking energy link with planet that makes shield inpenetrable).
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1032 - 2011-10-20 09:19:03 UTC

Sorry but he is rigth (the dev) if you as a player want to harvest big game you have to belong to alliances or disrupt their activities, i agree the only thing that it needs tweaking is the amount of HP so that we can reinforce.
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#1033 - 2011-10-20 09:20:09 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Daedalus II wrote:
It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out.


Tax rate is available to you while you are in system but you can see them all on the overview so you don't need to actually fly up to each one. I will cite technical complexity as the reason it isn't initially available to everyone / everywhere but I can also see an argument for exploration as being part of the PI gameplay anyway.

Re comments about not responding, give us some time, today has been a particularly rough day at CCP. We did have a meeting this morning to discuss the many ideas and comments in this thread and some points are being acting on already so hang tight.


My condolences. My software company saw lay offs awhile back, and I can seriously say that nothing impacted my productivity more. Survivor's guilt can be a tough thing to deal with.

Sad stuff aside, I've been (sadly) following this thread for entirely too long. I'm still seeing a lot of the same information being posted. If you are considering posting, please tie your comments back to something that's been said previously if you haven't got something altogether different to say. It will make it easier for the information to be digested by the people that actually need to hear what the players have to say.
Sauraah
Voracious Violence
#1034 - 2011-10-20 09:21:56 UTC
Abramul wrote:

Further, make command center storage space increase with upgrades, to 5k m3 or so.


Agreed on making the command center storage space larger with upgrades. Only being able to launch 500m3 into space at a time will be a major headache.

I'm saying goodbye to easy, partially passive, low sec isk making.
Razor Blue
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1035 - 2011-10-20 09:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Razor Blue
At first i thought that this would be good idea, but then i gave little thought about it. I do have 4 chars in low sec, having 22 command centers in 8 planets. The system is nice and quiet... So if POCOs are implemented, its probably me who is going to launch all those POCOs, the price tag would be around 500mil - 1b, and that investment probably would be never covered.

And why would anyone blow POCOs up then? The reason is simple: Because they can. Same reason aplies as to why would anyone block people from using their planets? Because they can...

The reason, imo, why POCOs wil not work is that there would be no "middle gound" in their usage. It would be either 100% tax, total block out, or blow 'em up.

Lastly, 2 things:
1 ."Blinking wallet intel". If im using someone elses POCO, does his/hers wallet blink everytime me/my alts use the service?
2. Can you make them deployable by all Blockade Runners? The Customs Gantry (9600m3) doesnt fit into Prowler nor Crane.

edit. Adding this idea:
1. Allow multiple POCOs at planet and reduce their price and hp
2. Make them indestructible, but attackable. So someone could raid and put other peoples POCOs out of order for a few days
3. Repairing them would not happen by shield transfers nor armor repairers, but adding certain minerals and/or PI materials into POCO hangar and starting "repair timer". Kinda like POS refineries.
4. After 30days unused POCO would be decommissioned automatically
Paski
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1036 - 2011-10-20 10:41:46 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.

Regards
Omen


did you really say that the little guy can get out of low sec and null sec and should just stay in empire, did you not read CCPs own design principles for Null Sec Design Principles, you have just taken the one activity that a careful solo indy player can do in low/null and opened them to the mercy of the bored blob

and your apparently professional CCP Dev response is "get back to empire, null sec and low sec belong to the blob" you should be ashamed of such an ill considered approach
Arra Lith
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1037 - 2011-10-20 10:53:48 UTC
Razor Blue wrote:

2. Can you make them deployable by all Blockade Runners? The Customs Gantry (9600m3) doesnt fit into Prowler nor Crane.


Signed. It should be either same as Control Towers (8000 m3) - fitting to all cov op transports. Or it should be 12000 m3, making it only for industrial / deep space transports. Visually they seems to be smaller than Control Towers, so it seems strange they have larger packed volume ;s
Paski
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1038 - 2011-10-20 10:56:24 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:


You have some cool ideas but why do you assume the larger corporation won't tolerate you? Do people hate money all of a sudden? Question On a serious note, do you actually think they are more likely to disallow you? We are operating under the assumption that most PCO owners will allow "neutral" at least for the extra dough.

If they indeed don't allow you, I would bet there will be wormholes that operate free for all COs for profit. At least that's what we hope.




This post and the quotes from the dev prove that CCP Omen has not a clue about human nature and how eve works, he sounds like Alan Greenspan thinking that the financial markets will self-regulate themselves based on logic, and look where that got us

and he says that if it does not work the way he expects then he has other plans, by then it is broken mate, too late

wake up a realise what you are doing, your theories might work in a spreadsheet in a perfect world but they certainly won't work in eve, can we get a real dev without training wheels to step in and bring a little CCP sense to this, you guys seem to be doing a great job lately, now this
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies
#1039 - 2011-10-20 11:13:32 UTC
There is a good reason to deny others access to your POCO's even if you are not in null.

Multiple players extracting from the same resource pockets depletes them faster, at least according to CCP's own PI tutorial video.
So by locking out the competition I can have my hotspots last longer.

Add to this that for the first months after this is introduced in it's current form CO's in lowsec will be rarity and publicly accessible ones will be even rarer. Not only making them more likely to get 'camped' also resulting in a larger number of players using the same planets and thus depleting the pockets faster (further reducing the profitably compared to hi-sec).

Basically under the new system I am required to invest heavily in infrastructure that is more likely to be camped (risking a 100 million transport vessel, that would take weeks to earn back by itself). Share whatever resources are on the planet with more players further reducing my profit (cause lets be frank if I close the POCO I vastly increase the risk of it being shot at).

I still have to do the math but I think you may effectively be telling me to move to hi-sec and train a couple more PI alts on my accounts to make up the difference. Thanks for the extra grind of clicking for an extra hour each day I guess leaving me with less time to actually do 'fun' stuff.
none nalim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1040 - 2011-10-20 11:25:53 UTC
So when owner of sov changes I will have to:

1. Gather fleet to reinforce (I see those happy faces when they hear word 'reinforce') 5x POC thats is 50mln ehp.
2. Ask my corp to give me rights to anchor POC or find someone that will do it.
3. Buy 5x POC (yes, buy, no corp will be interested in investing 375-500kk isks when they calculate profit/risk).

Hell no, won't do it.

Why not to:
1. Make tax not in isks but percentage from good people produce. example: 5% tax for tier 1 products. 5% of coolant produced goes to "corp storage" in POC? Yeah that will be interesting in 0.0. Allow different taxes for different tiers.
2. Make bigger silos to allow to setup production for 1 week. Good passive income every week? Thats the thing worth fighting for. Doing PI every day isn't fun. 5,10.15 planets every day or two? no thank you.

This way corp gets good that are needed in 0.0 or can sell them, people have good income without hours of clicking mouse. Worth defending and worth attacking if only corp storage is big enough to gather 1 month tax. (attacker should see how many goods are in POC and if defender can't take them out while in reinforce)

Sorry for my English.