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[Winter] Ewar Tweaks for Retribution

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Angelina Joliee
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#421 - 2012-11-12 14:15:09 UTC
I hate most of the changes - really.
I am gonna sell my last two Falcons and Rooks and will never fly them again.
Didnt flown them in fleets anyway - only is very small gangs. With those changes you may just remove them from game completely.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#422 - 2012-11-12 14:34:15 UTC
fukier wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
So scripted TD will be at 40% rather then 50% on unbonused ships?


47.5%. Multiply the effectiveness by 0.95, rather than subtract 5. I'll see if I can clarify the wording.


Still seems too high... I would prefer scripts to be only useable on bonused ships..

Make it a role bonus to use scripts.



Settle down there killer. Do you actually use TD's because if you do then you would know what you propose will nerf TD's into the dirt. Let me guess...your a missle spammer?

Oderint Dum Metuant
fukier
Gallente Federation
#423 - 2012-11-12 15:18:29 UTC
Aralieus wrote:
fukier wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
So scripted TD will be at 40% rather then 50% on unbonused ships?


47.5%. Multiply the effectiveness by 0.95, rather than subtract 5. I'll see if I can clarify the wording.


Still seems too high... I would prefer scripts to be only useable on bonused ships..

Make it a role bonus to use scripts.



Settle down there killer. Do you actually use TD's because if you do then you would know what you propose will nerf TD's into the dirt. Let me guess...your a missle spammer?



yeah i use td's.... they are pretty fotm in FW right now... like have to be on every ship... like rsd used to be or nos or multi specs... or any other damn op mod ccp ever created and then nerfed...

i dont think race specific Ewar should be good on non specialsed ships... and right now TP and ECM are not that good on non Spcialised ships... RSD are only useful on racial ships now... but TD are still king...

so out options are to further reduce the base effectiveness of td's... i would say at a min 10% and then increase the effectiveness of ship skill bonus by 2.5% per lev...

or just make it so you can only use ewar scripts on ewar ships...

oh and TD belong in the dirt...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#424 - 2012-11-12 15:58:40 UTC
People keep saying Ewar on unbonused ships should be crap, and they don't say why. Every single type of Ewar should be a worthwhile fitting choice on an unbonused ship - neuts, TDs, TPs, ECM, Damps. It adds tactical options and further depth to combat. The fact that TDs and neuts are the only ones remotely approaching a working state right now is a reason to fix (or replace) ECM, Damps, and TPs.

Or I guess we could keep measuring all ships by how fast they go and how much DPS they do with a shield tank.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#425 - 2012-11-12 17:57:29 UTC
fukier wrote:
Aralieus wrote:
fukier wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
So scripted TD will be at 40% rather then 50% on unbonused ships?


47.5%. Multiply the effectiveness by 0.95, rather than subtract 5. I'll see if I can clarify the wording.


Still seems too high... I would prefer scripts to be only useable on bonused ships..

Make it a role bonus to use scripts.



Settle down there killer. Do you actually use TD's because if you do then you would know what you propose will nerf TD's into the dirt. Let me guess...your a missle spammer?



yeah i use td's.... they are pretty fotm in FW right now... like have to be on every ship... like rsd used to be or nos or multi specs... or any other damn op mod ccp ever created and then nerfed...

i dont think race specific Ewar should be good on non specialsed ships... and right now TP and ECM are not that good on non Spcialised ships... RSD are only useful on racial ships now... but TD are still king...

so out options are to further reduce the base effectiveness of td's... i would say at a min 10% and then increase the effectiveness of ship skill bonus by 2.5% per lev...

or just make it so you can only use ewar scripts on ewar ships...

oh and TD belong in the dirt...



Just because there FOTM in FW right now doesn't mean they are in other areas of the game...so it boils down to you want to nerf TD's (into the ground mind you) every where because their effective on *your* side of the sandbox. It's not our burden if you want to pilot mainly frigs which get hit the hardest by TD'ing. You choose to undock in those ships, so when your effectively shut down by some form of ewar it's not fair and should be nerfed? What if it were damps that made your ship get popped so easily...would you ask to nerf those to? No matter how you spin it your pissed about TD'ng making it extremely easy to pop a ship you love to fly and I get that but don't claim their OP cause frankly there quite crap on un bonused hulls.

Oderint Dum Metuant
fukier
Gallente Federation
#426 - 2012-11-12 18:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
Aralieus wrote:



Just because there FOTM in FW right now doesn't mean they are in other areas of the game...so it boils down to you want to nerf TD's (into the ground mind you) every where because their effective on *your* side of the sandbox. It's not our burden if you want to pilot mainly frigs which get hit the hardest by TD'ing. You choose to undock in those ships, so when your effectively shut down by some form of ewar it's not fair and should be nerfed? What if it were damps that made your ship get popped so easily...would you ask to nerf those to? No matter how you spin it your pissed about TD'ng making it extremely easy to pop a ship you love to fly and I get that but don't claim their OP cause frankly there quite crap on un bonused hulls.


i am saying for damps and td for scrips to be only useable on bonused ships...

and no td's on unbonused ships are rather awesome right now... even after the 5% nerf...

IMO and thats just me... racial ewar should only be good on bonused ships... just like racial weapons are only good on racial ships...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#427 - 2012-11-13 05:21:02 UTC
One issue with "each E-War has a counter and ECM"...

Increased range / tracking / sig res / lock range (and speed) are all beneficial, apart from EW. There are effects that improve them, and there are E-War effects that "un-improve" them.

In contrast, sensor strength exists as a yardstick for ECM. If you're not under attack by ECM, your sensor strength is irrelevant.

However, I don't like an "ECM reduces number of locked targets" mechanic. In many situations, as long as the number of targets remaining is at least 1, it acts like a very weak sensor damp - it takes you longer to lock the next primary. At which point, the next primary might as well be the ECM boat. If it can reduce it to zero, then it becomes a worse version of perma-jamming than the current mechanic - throw enough ECM on the field and ships are completely shut down.

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#428 - 2012-11-13 11:17:32 UTC
The only thing I can suggest on ECM is to tie the sensors in to the high slots and as you jam someone they lose their slots.

Lets say you have an Amarr cruiser, it has 5 high slots, 25 radar. If it's jammed for 20 of its radar strength, it loses 4 of its high slots instead of scan res shut down. Sensor strength is the ability to target, not lock.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#429 - 2012-11-13 16:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Ioci wrote:
The only thing I can suggest on ECM is to tie the sensors in to the high slots and as you jam someone they lose their slots....

And scripts for ECM pilot to be able to target a specific rack (ex. midslot ECM script to shake a tackler) and unscripted being evenly distributed with a 25-33% reduction?

Might work if modules like propulsion were left unaffected or it effectively becomes a super long range web Big smile

My beloved light ship classes would naturally still be shafted, but I have registered no desire from anyone of note to help in that regard so willing to sacrifice that pet peeve for the greater good (read: non single player ECM mechanic).
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#430 - 2012-11-13 17:03:13 UTC
I am still waiting for word on if the ECM burst mod for supers will need to be tweaked with the introduction of the new skills.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#431 - 2012-11-13 19:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ioci
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Ioci wrote:
The only thing I can suggest on ECM is to tie the sensors in to the high slots and as you jam someone they lose their slots....

And scripts for ECM pilot to be able to target a specific rack (ex. midslot ECM script to shake a tackler) and unscripted being evenly distributed with a 25-33% reduction?

Might work if modules like propulsion were left unaffected or it effectively becomes a super long range web Big smile

My beloved light ship classes would naturally still be shafted, but I have registered no desire from anyone of note to help in that regard so willing to sacrifice that pet peeve for the greater good (read: non single player ECM mechanic).


Or give all modules that target, a number from the four senors groups and yes have a script to allow for switch outs to med from high but in effect while I could fit say an Amarr Cruiser with 100 radar worth of modules it makes it very easy to Jam. I'm going to regret suggesting this, forget the forum rage, I will regret it myself but I am thinking of a Guardian with all large modules in the high slots. It would become Jam prone without some serious radar support through ECCM or remotes. Still it would make ECM a counter instead of a complete ewar.

Certain ships like the Guardian might even be eligible for a role bonus that improves Jam protection.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#432 - 2012-11-14 00:43:45 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Ioci wrote:
The only thing I can suggest on ECM is to tie the sensors in to the high slots and as you jam someone they lose their slots....

And scripts for ECM pilot to be able to target a specific rack (ex. midslot ECM script to shake a tackler) and unscripted being evenly distributed with a 25-33% reduction?

Might work if modules like propulsion were left unaffected or it effectively becomes a super long range web Big smile

My beloved light ship classes would naturally still be shafted, but I have registered no desire from anyone of note to help in that regard so willing to sacrifice that pet peeve for the greater good (read: non single player ECM mechanic).


I think slot lockdown is the way to go for a "non-random" ECM. However a full lockdown of a specific rack might still be too much. I'd rather have a 30-50% (guaranteed) partial lockdown.

I'd be ok with it affecting propulsions. Let's take a generic Amarr ship with 3 midslots for example (Point, MWD,Booster). The Ewar would force the pilot to shut one of them down. Still bad, but similar to TDs and Damps in overall effect on the targeted ship.



(I posted about this in greater detail here (ewar 2): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=171014 )
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#433 - 2012-11-14 00:47:11 UTC
Why is the 5% mentioned in
"*Add to the Optimal Range and Falloff bonus on ECM range bonused ships by 2.5% for the Blackbird, Kitsune and Tengu Obfuscation Manifold (bringing it to 12.5%) and 5% for the Scorpion (bringing it to 25%)"

not the same kind of 5% mentioned in

"*Reduce TD base module effectiveness by 5%"
trited
#434 - 2012-11-14 05:17:46 UTC
(ECM Ships)......................................................................................................................................... annnnnnndddddd it's gone.

http://youtu.be/8vdlqLGgrW0
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#435 - 2012-11-14 05:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ioci
Sheynan wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Ioci wrote:
The only thing I can suggest on ECM is to tie the sensors in to the high slots and as you jam someone they lose their slots....

And scripts for ECM pilot to be able to target a specific rack (ex. midslot ECM script to shake a tackler) and unscripted being evenly distributed with a 25-33% reduction?

Might work if modules like propulsion were left unaffected or it effectively becomes a super long range web Big smile

My beloved light ship classes would naturally still be shafted, but I have registered no desire from anyone of note to help in that regard so willing to sacrifice that pet peeve for the greater good (read: non single player ECM mechanic).


I think slot lockdown is the way to go for a "non-random" ECM. However a full lockdown of a specific rack might still be too much. I'd rather have a 30-50% (guaranteed) partial lockdown.

I'd be ok with it affecting propulsions. Let's take a generic Amarr ship with 3 midslots for example (Point, MWD,Booster). The Ewar would force the pilot to shut one of them down. Still bad, but similar to TDs and Damps in overall effect on the targeted ship.



(I posted about this in greater detail here (ewar 2): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=171014 )


My thinking on that is, you aren't locking down the slot per say, just the module in it. In the case of an Afterburner in a med slot, that doesn't need a radar stat because it doesn't target anything. You couldn't really jam it. A TD on the other hand you could jam because it is targeting another ship.
I wasn't so much thinking a Falcon pilot would need to micro manage all the slots. Just pick a rack. If by default you went for high slots on a Megathron for example, you hit it with 75 points of Sensor ECM and it could only compensate for 60 of that it would lose one of its guns. A group of 7 would become a group of 6 or the first slot with a targeting module would be disabled for a cycle of ECM. If you had a Ship that was loaded with neuts in the high and Ewar in the middles, it would have a huge drain on its sensor and might lose all its high slots to a well fitted Falcon. It would still have the falcon locked but couldn't use any neuts. This would make a drone boat very dangerous for a Falcon but in lore, Gallente were building to combat Caldari. It would make sense.

Think of sensor strength in the shape of a capacitor wheel. You put a whole bunch of modules on, the capacitor becomes unstable. In Sensor strength terms that means you are now Jam vulnerable. If you have a fit that has 50% green on strength it means you will be difficult to jam. Just like capacitor I can still fit all that stuff and use it but the ship isn't electronically stable so even a random Velator with a T1 ECM module could knock out its systems. It would allow a Falcon pilot to math out his actual ECM strength and determine how much havoc he could create to electronics but he would lose the lottery bonus of I-Win.

5 falcons in a fleet fight, one locks the fleet commander ans shuts down his command modules. It would certainly redefine ECM in EVE but it wouldn't make it useless. The only real issue with what I am suggesting is it will take years to do. It means writing code to add sensor to every module that targets and then calculating how the ship used their sensors and how ECM used that against them.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Captain CarlCosmogasm
Cosmogasm
#436 - 2012-11-14 14:24:35 UTC
Instead of an all or nothing system, give to ECM sensor dampening, weapon disruption, and target painting effects so that a partial jam has an impact on a target's electronics. The strength of those effects can be dependent on the ratio between the strength of the ECM and target vessel's sensor strength.
Giribaldi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#437 - 2012-11-14 22:31:44 UTC
Executus Primus wrote:
Denuo Secus wrote:
I REALLY like the mentioned idea of making ECM strength affecting the jamming length instead of the jam success. This would solve all the issues. ECM would be relieable for any ECM pilot! What I don't like about ECM is the binary nature. Planning a tactic with dices involved isn't fun. I lose fights just because a random number generator decided it. No piloting skill involved.

With ECM variable in jamming lenght I'd get something like an ECM burst in worst case at least. This is much more less frustrating for the ECM target as well since he can re-lock instantly. With better jamming strength jams become more lasting and more powerful that way.


I like the idea. but if you do it that way, you can break every tackle (you just need 1 second of lockbreak to get away).




Agreeed it would make jamming op because solo pilots could nano out and fit a jammer for survival... And jam u for a second kill u warp off... Dislike the idea...
Giribaldi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#438 - 2012-11-14 22:37:53 UTC
CW Itovuo wrote:
7'62 SKS wrote:
Why all the whining about ECM and why does CCP seem so intent on changing it?

When flying ECM I never come across a logi that is not ECCM fit. They are VERY VERY effective at turning a Blackbird into a laughable choice for a fleet fight which is why you really don't see a ton of ECM being fielded as things are. If it was the end-all-be-all broken mechanic, wouldn't you see them a lot more often, as in, 30% of any fleet every time?

ECCM is working great as a counter to ECM. These new skills are something everyone will have and therefore will nerf ECM significantly. As a ECM pilot I have to either have intel on what the opposing fleet is flying or take my chances with a rainbow fit. The same applies to people trying to guess if ECM will be on the field and deciding whether or not to fit ECCM or go 100% optimized DPS/tank and hope for the best...or have intel.

When flying ECM I already have a ton of things that can ruin my day:

1) ECCM fits on obvious ECM targets like logistics. FC orders me to jam the logi. Jams fail 90%. My ship is a brick.
2) Tier 3 BCs and other snipers can hit my no-tank ECM bird no problem and destroy me in seconds or force me off the field.
3) Fast frigates can burn to me within seconds. Each one that does so takes up a jam to deal with, and realistically I need to leave the field before they close in or probably die.
4) Damps. One damp and my sniper perch is blown, and I need to leave the field.
5) Jams. Stop hating on ECM so much and maybe someone will field an ECM boat on YOUR side.
6) Bad intel. Scout was wrong or enemy was clever and now my jams are all mismatched. My ship is a brick.

Every update seems to bring more bad news for ECM pilots. But its never enough to quell the angry mob of min/maxers who simply don't want to deal with ECM with fittings or implants that shave a few points off of their precious fits. ECM is part of the game, and although the mechanic may be simplistic, it's a lot of fun. Eve constantly forces players to adapt, adjust, and survive. For some reason this doesn't seem to apply to ECM though. Seems like most people think the only way to counter ECM is to pour tears on it until CCP nerfs it out of the game.


Agreed. Plenty of good counters already available. No need to change ECM ships. ECM drones could stand a bit of adjustment.


ECM pilot brings rock. Enemy fleet can bring paper or sissors, their choice.




i agree nerf ecm drones... Lights jam way to often... And heavies... Gfl locking anything before ur dead... Ecm ships and the skills need no change... U will completly remove falcons and jamming ships from the iield of battle... Minus the five v five fleets which u rarly see... And even then one damp and im useless... One shoot at me and im off the field... Jamming ships and skills r working as intended...
Hoarr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#439 - 2012-11-15 03:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Hoarr
Soooooooooooo.... I've been playing around w/ the new E-war, and I'm sorry but these changes are game breakingly bad. The new T1 cruiser E-WAR is hilariously OP. Numbers you say? Why yes, I have them right here:

*note* All numbers following are in what the ship has after the Ewar has been applied. For instance, after 4 damps, the Huginn has a new locking range of 15.31 kms.

Assuming all Vs on both sides, the Huginn has a targeting range of 156.25km. Here is how that changes with the new damps with targeting range scripts:

1 Damp - 60.30 km lock range
2 Damps - 28.18 km lock range
3 Damps - 18.31 km lock range
4 Damps - 15.31 km lock range

The arbitrator however, is so much worse. Again, assuming all Vs on both sides, a current bog standard AC cane w/ 425s and RF EMP has a tracking speed of .156. Here is how it changes with TDs and tracking speed scripts:

1 TD is - .043
2 TD is - .016
3 TD is - .0093

When you load Barrage, it has a current range of 4+30. Under TDs with range scripts:

1 TD - 1+8
2 TD - .5+3
3 TD - .2+1.8

To me, that seems hilariously excessive. Fozzie, please rethink these changes before we see fights in which everyone is rocking Augorors/Guardians and fight exclusively in armor brawling gangs that are within 5km of each other (caution, may not be exactly what happens. Author is prone to excessive hyperbole).
Captain CarlCosmogasm
Cosmogasm
#440 - 2012-11-15 15:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain CarlCosmogasm
An alternative idea is that the ECM attacks sensors like weapons attack armor or shields - Once sensors are overloaded (or gone) the ship is jammed. Give sensors a recalibration rate - a healing rate between 10 and 30 seconds.

Reduced sensor strength could cause effects like reduced targeting range, swollen the sig radius, impeded tracking, penalized drone bandwidth etc.