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[Proposal] Fix Wardec Exploits

First post First post First post
Author
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#81 - 2012-11-08 11:24:13 UTC
Ben Youssef Noban wrote:
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Zerg, it's obvious you and your fellows have put a lot of time and efforts into finding and using the broke-ass mechanics CCP has foisted on us (yet again) concerning War-Decs. What I want to know is how long it is going to take them to fix this c-f so that wars can actually be useful again?

Has there been ANY conversation between the CSM and CCP about this?

I talked to Veritas and Soundwave in Vegas this last weekend, and went over many of the major loopholes and the such. Soundwave gave me his business card and asked me to email him more information. I'm currently working on a more concise write up so I can mail it off to him, was planning to do so today.

As far as urgency, they were all of the mindset that it wasn't a pressing enough issue yet, and there weren't enough complaints or public outcry to warrant shifting gears to address the issues quicker. So at least in the short term I wouldn't expect anything to change, but we'll continue to push for fixes anyways.




Get Goonswarm trapped in Dec Shield mechanic and there will be some kind of a fix within three weeks.


more like within three days
Jason Quixos
Mass of Wrecks
Villore Accords
#82 - 2012-11-08 13:57:24 UTC
Any chance ccp going to fix this war system?

Seems like petitions get ignored, posts get deleted/edited, and seems like political answers from GM's.

Is this kind of thing CCP endorsed then?

Space Cadet Online - A wee blog about my exploits Mass Of Wrecks - Public NPSI Events Fleet - launching 28th August

AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#83 - 2012-11-08 14:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: AssassinationsdoneWrong
Jason Quixos wrote:
Any chance ccp going to fix this war system?

Seems like petitions get ignored, posts get deleted/edited, and seems like political answers from GM's.

Is this kind of thing CCP endorsed then?



Yes. Petitions get answered "Contact the CSM" which kind of makes it a "closed loop" process because the CSM won't even make their own comment about it. What is being asked for here is practically impossible to achieve because it would mean CCP having to admit they ballsed another mechanic up and simultaneously requiring the CSM to actually prove they give a damn.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#84 - 2012-11-08 17:41:27 UTC
Hello guys, thanks for the mail, and I'm happy to give you an update on the situation here. Essentially the issue is this - the team that was responsible for the wardec system overhaul was never allowed the room in their sprint schedule for proper through on the wardec system following Inferno's release. They were assigned Bounty Hunting as the headline feature for Winter, and the pressure on them has been to finish and deliver Bounty Hunting first and foremost.

This leaves wardecs in a completely unacceptable state in the meantime, and this has been a major point of contention between the CSM and CCP, ever since they were given their assignments this fall. We've asked time and time again when this issue was going to be addressed, and basically told the same thing each time, priority was finishing the new items (Bounty Hunting, salvage drones, and microjumpdrives) before wardecs would be revisited. Obviously this is not the priority the CSM would have preferred, as it is a poor example of CCP following through on their commitment to iteration before new features. Not to mention many of us still think microjumpdrives are useless.

So in otherwords, for most of the summer and fall, there really hasn't been any news to report other than "We're aware of the issue and speaking to CCP about it". Is that the answer anyone wants to hear? Of course not, as reflected by your current email. But its the truth nonetheless, we've just been up against a resource allocation issue that was beyond our ability to control.

That is not to say in any way that the fight is over, recently Alekseyev Karrde successfully landed a 1 on 1 meeting with CCP Soniclover to review this situation and once again deliver the message that wardecs are in a completely unacceptable state and that the situation continues to worsen and threaten the usefulness of even having a wardec system in the first place. Aleks felt the session was productive, in terms of making sure that the development team understands exactly what needs to be done, but this doesnt resolve the short-term issue of lack of time being devoted to fixing this.

Since Retribution is about at the "hardening" phase where its all about polishing finished code, it's extremely unlikely this will be addressed in the Dec. 4 release. From the meeting with CCP Soniclover, Aleks was able to confirm that not only is wardecs #1 on the teams own backlog, but that they will attempt to work on this in point releases following Retribution's initial release. We'll keep you posted as things develop, but thats about all there is to share on the news front where wardecs are concerned.

I appreciate everyone's patience, this affects all of us (most of us on the CSM are involved in this through one war or another) and I know how frustrating it is to not have an end in sight. Just understand that we've been in the dark as much as you regarding when this will be addressed, and are continuing to hammer this as one of the most critical pieces of unfinished business from the last couple of expansions.

At the upcoming summit, we'll not only bring up this issue once again, but will also be emphasizing the importance of follow-through on broken systems in the future, as this is one of the low points in the road to iterative development when compared to say, Faction Warfare, where proper resources have been allocated to add the needed polish for the system to function properly.

Don't hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions, email is fastest as the Assembly Hall is essentially a redundant version of Features and Ideas discussion section of the forums, and we've been long lobbying for them to remove it completely and consolidate the two so players aren't posting in a relatively inactive part of the forum.

o7

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

DeT Resprox
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#85 - 2012-11-08 17:53:14 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Hello guys, thanks for the mail, and I'm happy to give you an update on the situation here. Essentially the issue is this - the team that was responsible for the wardec system overhaul was never allowed the room in their sprint schedule for proper through on the wardec system following Inferno's release. They were assigned Bounty Hunting as the headline feature for Winter, and the pressure on them has been to finish and deliver Bounty Hunting first and foremost.

This leaves wardecs in a completely unacceptable state in the meantime, and this has been a major point of contention between the CSM and CCP, ever since they were given their assignments this fall. We've asked time and time again when this issue was going to be addressed, and basically told the same thing each time, priority was finishing the new items (Bounty Hunting, salvage drones, and microjumpdrives) before wardecs would be revisited. Obviously this is not the priority the CSM would have preferred, as it is a poor example of CCP following through on their commitment to iteration before new features. Not to mention many of us still think microjumpdrives are useless.

So in otherwords, for most of the summer and fall, there really hasn't been any news to report other than "We're aware of the issue and speaking to CCP about it". Is that the answer anyone wants to hear? Of course not, as reflected by your current email. But its the truth nonetheless, we've just been up against a resource allocation issue that was beyond our ability to control.

That is not to say in any way that the fight is over, recently Alekseyev Karrde successfully landed a 1 on 1 meeting with CCP Soniclover to review this situation and once again deliver the message that wardecs are in a completely unacceptable state and that the situation continues to worsen and threaten the usefulness of even having a wardec system in the first place. Aleks felt the session was productive, in terms of making sure that the development team understands exactly what needs to be done, but this doesnt resolve the short-term issue of lack of time being devoted to fixing this.

Since Retribution is about at the "hardening" phase where its all about polishing finished code, it's extremely unlikely this will be addressed in the Dec. 4 release. From the meeting with CCP Soniclover, Aleks was able to confirm that not only is wardecs #1 on the teams own backlog, but that they will attempt to work on this in point releases following Retribution's initial release. We'll keep you posted as things develop, but thats about all there is to share on the news front where wardecs are concerned.

I appreciate everyone's patience, this affects all of us (most of us on the CSM are involved in this through one war or another) and I know how frustrating it is to not have an end in sight. Just understand that we've been in the dark as much as you regarding when this will be addressed, and are continuing to hammer this as one of the most critical pieces of unfinished business from the last couple of expansions.

At the upcoming summit, we'll not only bring up this issue once again, but will also be emphasizing the importance of follow-through on broken systems in the future, as this is one of the low points in the road to iterative development when compared to say, Faction Warfare, where proper resources have been allocated to add the needed polish for the system to function properly.

Don't hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions, email is fastest as the Assembly Hall is essentially a redundant version of Features and Ideas discussion section of the forums, and we've been long lobbying for them to remove it completely and consolidate the two so players aren't posting in a relatively inactive part of the forum.

o7


Well said :)

Ushra'Khan Leader + Founder // T.R.I.A.D CEO // EVEPANDORA.COM

qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#86 - 2012-11-08 18:20:54 UTC
So..
As long as you START no wars, there is no trappings and no issues, right?
Tinja Soikutsu
Perkone
Caldari State
#87 - 2012-11-08 19:34:51 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
So..
As long as you START no wars, there is no trappings and no issues, right?

Yes, as long as none of the companies in your entire alliance starts a war, you're safe.....
Thorvik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2012-11-08 20:22:41 UTC
+1 to get rid of current system
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#89 - 2012-11-08 20:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
DeT Resprox wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Hello guys, thanks for the mail,............rt of the forum.

o7


Well said :)



Well said? Kidding me? Do you mean his pronunciation? This is crap.

My whole alliance is stuck. The "Major" improvement of the last patch keeps us nothing else but waiting. High sec mining, industry and incursions are forbidden. Billions of ISK lost every day. My members became told by any GM to disband the alliance and reform a new corp.

What should i say. F.uck off came in my mind. I seriously think about questioning for a reimbursement of lost playtime for every char stuck in my alliance. This is not a play for free game. I pay for everything they announce. Fixing the War-Dec system was the bigtime project of last summer. I extended my Accounts because i was happy to read this. Now i spend my money to NOT play the game properly.

Every time you point out that the problem is the copy mechanism of the wars a GM tells you that the mutual war is okay and then they close the petition. No one answers me directly about the copying. As i stated before, CCP Wrangler said about the last dec shield that the multiplication of wars can end in a ban and is not accepted at all.



TO CCP:

Before you add new crap FIX the old stuff!!!!



p.s.: I was playing around on the test server:

Micro jump drive: Actual crap
New Camera mode: More then crap
Money and people put to work at the right part: NOPE
Musiaba Schenoly
The Confederation of Eves good Knights
Destiny's Call
#90 - 2012-11-08 21:11:41 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Hello guys, thanks for the mail, and I'm happy to give you an update on the situation here. Essentially the issue is this - the team that was responsible for the wardec system overhaul was never allowed the room in their sprint schedule for proper through on the wardec system following Inferno's release. They were assigned Bounty Hunting as the headline feature for Winter, and the pressure on them has been to finish and deliver Bounty Hunting first and foremost.

This leaves wardecs in a completely unacceptable state in the meantime, ...
o7



Ok, first of all ty for an update on this issue finally.
Second: This all seem reflect (once again), that ccp dont understands what could happen:

Not only the most advertised feature of Inferno addon but also a key gamemechanic of Retribution is obviously a "trap" for everyone in this mmo who wants to use it:

So fixing it not till Retribution would be rediculous and cant be intended seriously.

This - in combination with an completely floping "customer support" would even mean that ppl cant use key-properties of eve-online for more than a half year.

After presenting this in our circles I heard for the first time of my 4 years eve carrer more than one thinkings about demanding back money through complaints for these months till it would be fixed finally.

Brib Vogt seems to foretell already something like that, too.

Ppl WILL unsub if they get furtherhin suggested to reform their corps for every war which they have to declare as mercs for the next time.
Not the mechanics of mutual wars is the problem thereby, but the fact that there is so less to fix to get it running well combined with ccp's behavior and prioritys makes so many ppl angry and frustrated again.

After 6 weeks of no information there IS no patience anymore tbh - everybody is thinking hard about his next steps.
Musiaba Schenoly
The Confederation of Eves good Knights
Destiny's Call
#91 - 2012-11-08 21:16:59 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
So..
As long as you START no wars, there is no trappings and no issues, right?

lol as long you are not use Inferno features u are (still) save... true
Mangala Solaris
Spectre Fleet Corporation
Spectre Fleet Alliance
#92 - 2012-11-08 21:31:21 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
So..
As long as you START no wars, there is no trappings and no issues, right?



Yes.

However RvB's issue with this is, we are now "trapped" in mutual wars we actually never started in the first place - and that we have to pay the initial weeks cost for as the "aggressor".

The wars themselves do not bother us as 90% of the 3rd parties are bears who were simply trying to hide from another war by joining DS in the first place and we have too much fun shooting ourselves to hunt them down. The rest are annoying but usually consist of epic fail groups hoping to leet pvp us to death or who leet pvp camp hubs as rvb space is scary for them.

But yes this whole thing is broken.
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
Kraftwerk.
#93 - 2012-11-08 22:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
@Hans Jagerblitzen
Your text is informative and well written.
But what I really read out of it is this:
CSM seems to be totally powerless and therefore has no reason to exist.
All you can do is talk to CCP. And CCP on the other hand just ignores it and use their resources on prettier suns and talking pirates.
The new Bounty-System is a neat feature but we can do without it and it will not work with the currently buggy War-Dec-System anyway. Please stop wasting your resources on neat little goodies and make it possible for over 10.000 people to join alliances with their corp, declare affordable wars and recruit members again.
The current allocation is not acceptable.

I am a programmer myself and I can't understand how this can be complicated to fix. It should not take more than a couple hours to think of a system that works better than the current one. I proved this in my thread below. There are many other ways to fix this too. Just select one and impliment it in a couple more hours. Should work by adjusting some functions. After the next DT it could be better. The people who designed the current (bad) system should still know their way arround in these mechanics.
This is NOT THAT COMPLICATED.

regards
Destriouth Hollow

Here my full text about the issue:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=170237&find=unread
Alekseyev Karrde
Capitalist Army
Streamfleet
#94 - 2012-11-08 22:41:22 UTC
The team working on war decs is the same one that is charged with making Bounty Hunting for Retribution, which is one of the highlight features for that expansion (it's looking pretty good too). No amount of posting will get that priority switched up.

Thankfully you DO have a few members on the CSM not content to just sit on their hands. As Hans mentioned, I talked one on one with CCP Soniclover, specifically to confront him about the lack of attention to war dec iteration and the numerous problems facing the system. To my pleasant surprise, that meeting actually went very well and has been diligently followed up on. I can confirm there will be some, probably minor, war-related items in the initial Retribution release with many more to come shortly there after. I've seen the list as it stands; there's still going to be room for improvement (ie it's not everything we need imo) but several of the changes represent significant improvements over the status quo.

Keep your eye out for a war-related dev blog in the not too distant future with lots of details on what Team Super Friends has in mind.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Musiaba Schenoly
The Confederation of Eves good Knights
Destiny's Call
#95 - 2012-11-08 23:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Musiaba Schenoly
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
The team working on war decs is the same one that is charged with making Bounty Hunting for Retribution, which is one of the highlight features for that expansion (it's looking pretty good too). No amount of posting will get that priority switched up.


So sry for bothering you and thx for helping ccp to keep the forums clean, dude.
From the initial posting by Zerg about this issue here to the first statement of you guys 44 days were gone and you want to tell us something about amounts of postings?? This ISN'T a sign that you r even NOT sitting on your hands, even every peti-reply I heard about ends with the demand to make a forumpost about it. GMs may feel helpless too or just want to appease, who knows.

Nevertheless I guess you also do not understand how serious some ppl that issue take concerning trust in ccp's ability to care for money worth quality in the future.

Beyond sharing the impression csm seems to be to tame in representing player bases interests thx for the further informations, tho.
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#96 - 2012-11-08 23:37:10 UTC
Aleks, Hans, and Kelduum have all been actively involved in fixing these issues from the start. Just because it hasn't been public knowledge does not mean they've been sitting on their hands. What you should be asking yourself is, what are the other CSM members doing? Where have they been all this time?
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
Kraftwerk.
#97 - 2012-11-08 23:50:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
Aleks, Hans, and Kelduum have all been actively involved in fixing these issues from the start. Just because it hasn't been public knowledge does not mean they've been sitting on their hands. What you should be asking yourself is, what are the other CSM members doing? Where have they been all this time?


The current War-Dec-System has such obvious holes:
It should not even be on the CSMs to report it to CCP. CCP should have known before they "patched" it. Not seeing this was already sad. After people showed the issue it should have been fixed it right away and been done. Not doing this is even more sad. Needing 2 months to finish it and pissing off the player base in this manner just takes the cake.

This is much too important and obvious to oversee and the critique has to go to CCP directly. No player-concil should be needed.
I'm waiting for a fix every day.

regards
Destriouth Hollow
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#98 - 2012-11-08 23:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
Maybe they have not been sitting on their hands, but they haven't got their fingers on their keyboards either. As musiaba wrote: In my second answer a a GM wrote: Thank you for your feedback on the war declaration system, but I am afraid we are unable to address potential changes to game systems through the petition system.

He wrote FEEDBACK!!!!!

AND: We recommend such suggestions be posted to the Features & Ideas Discussion part of the EVE Online forums, as the developers frequently read that forum section for feedback on existing systems as well as ideas for new ones.

They RECOMMEND posts, many posts.

I do not pay my money to the CSM crew. I pay it to CCP. There should be a responsible writing something himself instead sending a negotiator with news like: They heard, they know, but they do not give a f.uck 'bout it. It is not important, but please be patient and pay your friggin money.

I am a customer of a product. This product had a lot of advertisement. This advertisement was big about war dec.

Let me say it in capital letters: ALL CRAP

Come out where ever you are, show yourself and defend your actions, or better your priorities.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#99 - 2012-11-09 00:24:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
One questions no GM wants to answer directly:


Is the multiplication of wars, from one entity to another via an alt-char corp, and the avoiding of assists an exploit or a wanted feature.

I would like to hear CCP here, but i would even start with a CSM member.



If it is a feature, there is no reason to fix it, but it is a reason to stop playing this game for me. Is it an exploit it has to have consequences.
None ofthe Above
#100 - 2012-11-09 02:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
The team working on war decs is the same one that is charged with making Bounty Hunting for Retribution, which is one of the highlight features for that expansion (it's looking pretty good too). No amount of posting will get that priority switched up.

Thankfully you DO have a few members on the CSM not content to just sit on their hands. As Hans mentioned, I talked one on one with CCP Soniclover, specifically to confront him about the lack of attention to war dec iteration and the numerous problems facing the system. To my pleasant surprise, that meeting actually went very well and has been diligently followed up on. I can confirm there will be some, probably minor, war-related items in the initial Retribution release with many more to come shortly there after. I've seen the list as it stands; there's still going to be room for improvement (ie it's not everything we need imo) but several of the changes represent significant improvements over the status quo.

Keep your eye out for a war-related dev blog in the not too distant future with lots of details on what Team Super Friends has in mind.


To be honest Aleks, unless you are commenting on refinements not available to us mere players, Bounty Hunting promises to be about as broken as War Decs. A lot of "we couldn't spend the time to get it anywhere near right so here's what you get", in spite of the fact that all they have to do really is not implement the features everyone is telling them are crazy (ie: kill-rights as suspect flag).

Perpetual war lock-in, in this case. How hard could that possibly be to remove? Would fix most of this right quick. (Edit- In fact, I don't see why this should have to wait till retribution. Should be much simpler than the recent FW fixes.)

A bunch of other improvements are possible, true. But killing the lock-in would make this largely go away. Only effect of mutual should probably be no cost for RvB style wars.

Its just very frustrating to watch CCP drag its heels yet again on another game-breaking bug they where told would happen but proceeded with anyway. How many times do they have to burn their fingers before they learn?

And what software engineering company doesn't let engineers work on fixing bugs on their old code even as they deal with new projects? I work in the industry and that doesn't sound right to me.

Anyway Alex, kudos to you and Hans for keeping on this.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.