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[Updated] How to repopulate nullsec - a question for highsec/WH players (and CCP)

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Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#121 - 2011-10-19 19:19:34 UTC
Null-sec people hate indy type people. And the first few responses are related to t2 production. I am sorry, this is just silly. If you think moving all T2 production out to null sec is a good idea, you are already milking your corp mates with outrageous prices or a fool.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Mechanoid Kryten
N0VA 5
#122 - 2011-10-19 19:20:33 UTC
I ran away from 0.0 recently and back into a wh. My reasons are social. In high sec I can fly with pilots I like. I never need someone just because they fly a rorqual with a clone bay. In wh space I need some pvpers but if there are too many they will clear out all the sites and get bored. So the trick is to fly with a small number of good people. I don't pvp often and when I do I don't enjoy it... I like to fly with people who appreciate me coming out to fly with them when needed rather than 100 blob people who see pilots as nothing more than ships and who want me in their fleets even less than I want to waste my time blindly following orders in one.
I know every pilot in the wh I am moving into and I know every pilot who is joining me. Some like killing hulks in wh space but none of them are can flippers in high sec. Give me one 0.0 corp (not alliance) where one can say that about one's pvp fleets? Well maybe corps made of ppl that know each other in rl but that's it.

What rocks are the most isk per hour to mine? Which of your mission loot is worth more refined than sold? What blue prints make the most proffit? Answers: https://eve-industrialist.com/ Never sell an item for less than its mineral costs again!
Gheng Kondur
Serva Fidem
#123 - 2011-10-19 19:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Gheng Kondur
Simple for me, an achievable goal of carving out my little bit of space without having to join a massive alliance as a drone or simply be seen as holding up a big 'kick me' sign. I don't mind defending my space but against the big alliances, pointless trying.

unfortunatly CCP only seem to work on making hi sec worse which will just widen the gap for new players and make the big alliances the only option or unsub.

Expanding known space would be nice along with player controlled gates, but I can't see them doing that as it doesn't enable blob warfare
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#124 - 2011-10-19 19:29:38 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:

Step 3: Make getting and holding sov based on activity. Make it so a large alliance cannot just plop down a claim unit in each and every system. If they want it, they got to be active in it. This gives a reason to have more people in your alliance, so you can keep activity up in all your systems.



Would be nice to see the big SOV holders lose the ability to have their cake and eat it too.

But if that idea was ever implemented, it would simply mean more slavery for renters - with more emphasis on bringing productive slaves and not just gankaholics into 0.0.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
MNagy
Yo-Mama
#125 - 2011-10-19 19:36:05 UTC
Lyubov Petrovskaya wrote:
TL;DR - If you really wanted to get me into null you'd need to provide a mechanic that allows me to make a meaningful contribution to my corp/alliance in the hour or two of playtime I have each day.

I'm another who re-subbed my accounts following Hilmar's mea culpa. I've been absent for about 10-11 months.

I have spent some time in null previously as a part of a couple of different groups and didn't really care for it due to a lot of reasons that have already been mentioned in this thread - but I have one issue which I feel hasn't been raised that bugged me about 0.0 - namely that with limited playtime I didn't feel like I could really contribute anything to a group.

The only thing that would get me out to null would be some kind of provision or mechanic change that allowed for "small holders." I've gotten to that point in my life where I can only spend an hour or two a day playing and honestly it doesn't make sense for me or for a corp/alliance for me to be part of what goes on in 0.0 right now. I can't meaningfully contribute to territorial warfare as a combat pilot because I'm just not logged in enough and I agree with the consensus that logistics/manufacturing is broken - therefore I couldn't contribute in a logistical capacity either.

Without the ability to contribute to and hopefully experience some the emergent/sandbox gameplay CCP continues to hype, the isk is kind of meaningless to me.

On the brighter side, I can get everything I want from the game out of WH play. Re-subbed with a couple of buddies and we've just been cruising around WH space with our alts in tow - couple of cloaky haulers, scout, couple of PVE ships and a couple of PVP ships - and having a blast. We don't even put down a POS which is great because if we can't get together to play for 5 days we don't have to worry about maintaining a POS or having it blown up.

If you really wanted to get me into null I'd need some way to make a meaningful contribution to the organization I am part of without spending 6 hours a day on CTAs, etc. and I'm not really sure how you could change the mechanics to do that.


Plus in a WH you do not appear in local - so you are an "anonymous" player in a Ship that is seen on dscan. (Until eye contact is made)
VS
Oh look - a 3 month toon just came in on local. I can pop that guy with any ship i fly....

At a certain point - local kills younger players from enterin LS and Null because of their 'skill level' either SP or gameplay.
A 2-3 year toon will ALWAYS win a battle against a very much younger player.

I see local as being a huge problem. It always gives the big swarm a huge warning that you have entered system.
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#126 - 2011-10-19 19:41:51 UTC
Adelphie wrote:
So my question to non-null sec players - What keeps you out of null, and what features would you like to see which might entice you to venture out here?


-Gate camps
-Blob warfare
-Corporate hegemony
-General dickishness

I run missions, mine and explore on the hairy edge of low-sec. I don't join up with a corp because my time is my own, and I want the freedom to do as much or as little as I will in an evening. Mine some rock, blast some rats just to see the lights, do a serious mission for serious money, scan down a wormhole and take a peek inside. Whatever.

There's nothing for me in null. Some people enjoy null, and that's cool. But it's not for me, and I can't see any way it ever would be. I don't even bother with low-sec PvP, much less the politics and BS of sov. There's nothing I could do to change anything out there in any manner I gave two ***** about, and the only way to actually do so would be to join up. F that.

Introduce a smuggling system, or a sabotage system, that would allow me as an independent to do some interesting freelance in the grand scheme, and we'll talk.
Cpt Fina
Perkone
Caldari State
#127 - 2011-10-19 20:00:14 UTC
IMO, a stable 0,0 is not a problemin itself but rather a sign of players cooperating and making stable societie in "lawless" territory. Alot of high-sec people complain about the ruthlessness of 0,0 but then there's also the people who complain as soon as there's not constant fighting over territory and view this as some kind of problem.

I have personally not lived in 0,0 for a very long time but I find it truly a testament of the constructive powers of player interaction when I hear people complain about "NAP-fest". Sure, most of us love to pew pew, but I don't think that CCP envisions 0,0 as being some kind of constant shooting arena in a state of contant turmoil.

And also, if CCP don't nerf the productive powers of high sec space but rather increase it in 0,0 – then we will see no end of the "devaluation" of combat which maany seem to complain about. That is the tendancy of bigger and bigger ships being treated as the frigates of old times – the more productive the community gets the les valuable a battleship, a carrier, a supercarrier gets.

Do we want a battlehip-loss, or a carrier-loss to be pocket-change for the average eve-player? No? Then don't buff 0,0 – nerf high-sec.
Khira Kitamatsu
#128 - 2011-10-19 20:09:38 UTC
This game would have many more subs if it actually had a more robust PvE game. Believe it or not more people prefer PvE gaming in MMORPG's. EVE's pve game is the suck. It has a handful of repeatable quest. So how many times have you rescued the damsel in distress? LOL!

If EVE actually had avatar based game play this game would have way more players. There needs to be more to this game than just spaceships. Most MMORPG players cannot associate with the ideal behind EVE even with CQ's in place it is not enough. A little closet that adds nothing to actual MMO game play is useless.

To bad the people running CCP seem to be clueless. Instead they cancel the one thing that could draw in more new players - WiS. Add WiS with actual game play mechanics like avatar missioning, running businesses like clubs and other establishments and people will flock to this game - it will be more of an RPG. As it is now it is a glorified spread sheet game with a badly scripted spaceship sim tacked onto it. Christ the games physics are terrabad.

Ponies!  We need more ponies!
IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2011-10-19 20:14:52 UTC
-The ability to cyno out of w-space into LS and/or null and then back
-The concept of raiding the soft underbelly in null with light forces (A guy should be able to raise holy hell with a black ops BS in null IMO otherwise why have them.) Make this happen and you'll ~not~ see me in Null but you'll know I've been there.
-Alot of holers like me would love to raise a little hell in Null but none of us want to join big corps or alliances to do it. I'm part of a good corp with smart players who would love nothing more than to pee in somone's null pool. Give us the mechanic to do it and we will. Twisted
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2011-10-19 20:17:41 UTC
MNagy wrote:
Lyubov Petrovskaya wrote:
TL;DR - If you really wanted to get me into null you'd need to provide a mechanic that allows me to make a meaningful contribution to my corp/alliance in the hour or two of playtime I have each day.

I'm another who re-subbed my accounts following Hilmar's mea culpa. I've been absent for about 10-11 months.

I have spent some time in null previously as a part of a couple of different groups and didn't really care for it due to a lot of reasons that have already been mentioned in this thread - but I have one issue which I feel hasn't been raised that bugged me about 0.0 - namely that with limited playtime I didn't feel like I could really contribute anything to a group.

The only thing that would get me out to null would be some kind of provision or mechanic change that allowed for "small holders." I've gotten to that point in my life where I can only spend an hour or two a day playing and honestly it doesn't make sense for me or for a corp/alliance for me to be part of what goes on in 0.0 right now. I can't meaningfully contribute to territorial warfare as a combat pilot because I'm just not logged in enough and I agree with the consensus that logistics/manufacturing is broken - therefore I couldn't contribute in a logistical capacity either.

Without the ability to contribute to and hopefully experience some the emergent/sandbox gameplay CCP continues to hype, the isk is kind of meaningless to me.

On the brighter side, I can get everything I want from the game out of WH play. Re-subbed with a couple of buddies and we've just been cruising around WH space with our alts in tow - couple of cloaky haulers, scout, couple of PVE ships and a couple of PVP ships - and having a blast. We don't even put down a POS which is great because if we can't get together to play for 5 days we don't have to worry about maintaining a POS or having it blown up.

If you really wanted to get me into null I'd need some way to make a meaningful contribution to the organization I am part of without spending 6 hours a day on CTAs, etc. and I'm not really sure how you could change the mechanics to do that.


Plus in a WH you do not appear in local - so you are an "anonymous" player in a Ship that is seen on dscan. (Until eye contact is made)
VS
Oh look - a 3 month toon just came in on local. I can pop that guy with any ship i fly....

At a certain point - local kills younger players from enterin LS and Null because of their 'skill level' either SP or gameplay.
A 2-3 year toon will ALWAYS win a battle against a very much younger player.

I see local as being a huge problem. It always gives the big swarm a huge warning that you have entered system.


THIS ^ TwistedTwistedTwistedTwistedTwisted
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#131 - 2011-10-19 20:25:16 UTC
Some really good discussion so far of what's keeping people out of null.

The major frustrations seem to be:

- Lack of things for the casual gamer to participate in
- Lack of accessibility outside of major alliances
- Failure to give industrials a meaningful task

The thing this thread has less of is solutions to these problems - what features could CCP implement to improve the above?
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#132 - 2011-10-19 20:40:47 UTC
Adelphie wrote:
Some really good discussion so far of what's keeping people out of null.

The major frustrations seem to be:

- Lack of things for the casual gamer to participate in
- Lack of accessibility outside of major alliances
- Failure to give industrials a meaningful task

The first two are BS...the third one is relevant but probably not what's keeping the majority of people from going to nullsec.
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#133 - 2011-10-19 20:41:31 UTC
It's simple and can be done in few days probably. Just make PvP cheaper:

1) insure implants;

2) insure modules;

3) insure t2/t3 ships for their full cost

and let mortal kombat begin.

But I think nullsec stagnates because amount of subscribers is shrinking - not because people moved to highsec - and these ideas won't help. Especially with CCP's "soon" attitude when simple ideas takes years to implements.
Handsome Hussein
#134 - 2011-10-19 20:42:23 UTC
Adelphie wrote:
The major frustrations seem to be:

- Lack of things for the casual gamer to participate in
- Lack of accessibility outside of major alliances
- Failure to give industrials a meaningful task[

Not so much lack of things for the casual gamer, but rather lack of freedom to do whatever the **** I want, whenever the **** I want. This may differ by alliance/area, but it seems to be a constant theme throughout this thread.

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.
Anne Arqui
Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises
#135 - 2011-10-19 21:01:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Anne Arqui
the forum lag ate my post -.-

Agree with above poster(s):
- For industrialists getting all the materials you need is nigh on impossible;
- You give up your independence, for what?;
- A lot of things you want need a lot of time-consuming preparation and planning (logistical nightmare);
- Utter dependence on veteran capital ship pilots;
- The anonymity of big alliances;
- WHs and Incursions give alternative ways to earn nice ISK with a nice group of friends;
- 0.0 has no outskirts to settle in for small groups (nullsec is already 100% "full");
- implants are very expensive
Paragon Renegade
Sebiestor Tribe
#136 - 2011-10-19 21:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Paragon Renegade
Too little to gain for too much risk, not much room for small groups or individuals, takes up time galore.

It needs to be made................less bad in a nutshell.

I would really like if there was a serious incentive to leave my cozy Ice/Heorphite/minor PvP area & go to a dangerous location.

Perhaps by making it not Veteran player/Large group > Newer player/Small group by making the Negative Security (-0.1 through -1.0) more oriented towards the outskirts, with less rare stuff to go around, while keeping the "Safer" areas closer to the lower security area But then again, I have no idea how any balance could be achieved realistically.

Also, whatever is available in Null is available more readily in WH's, and WH's are leaps & bounds more fun/rewarding to boot.

The pie is a tautology
Lyubov Petrovskaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#137 - 2011-10-19 21:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyubov Petrovskaya
I contributed earlier in the discussion in the spirit of the questions, but I think the larger question here is probably does null really need to be fixed? I'm trying to be constructive with this so sorry if it sounds like a rant.

For some people, like myself, the answer to "How do we get you to null?" is, "make it more like W-space." Which I think you're seeing suggestions like lowering the barrier to entry (cost/accessibility), give it a less populated, more "frontier" feeling, open it up more to the small guys, get rid of local, etc.

But then it would just be w-space. We already have that. I personally don't have any problem leaving null to the folks who want to shoot POSs/TCUs all day while hot dropping each other with blobs.

Null is just boring and terrible in my opinion and most people don't want to live there. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. I'm having fun doing what I'm doing.

Some people like null the way it is, good for them. No reason to give them the shaft by radically altering their whole game play experience. It would be the equivalent of 0.0 people starting a campaign to get local added to W-space because, "No one from 0.0 wants to live in WHs.."
Reislier
#138 - 2011-10-19 21:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Reislier
Living in empire is much like life in New York.. Lots of traffic, crowds, and chatter.
It’s good for people watching and cruising while showing off shiny ships.

Low sec has the reputation of a ghetto.. lock your doors and drive fast.

Null is like joining the military.. Sir, yes sir, my guns are enormous sir!

3 distinct mindsets, goals, and motivations.

What does incentive have to do with it?

Be nice. If nice not work, be civil. If civil not work, beat with iron pipe till bloody and still.
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#139 - 2011-10-19 21:45:49 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera
#140 - 2011-10-19 21:47:01 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Whine

Old history.

Your corp / alliance went very quiet when I swopped over to a null sec alliance. Weren't so keen to attack then. (In other words, just looking for an excuse to keep beating up the smaller one)
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
[.
All of that sounds more exciting than:

-get level 4 mission from agent
-run level 4 mission
-repeat


Level 1 - 4 missions
High sec mining
Radar sites
Ladar sites
Mag sites
Grav sites
WH raiding from high sec
Low sec roaming
War decs
Good market that you can afford
Joining a WH alliance or corp, making more than you would in null sec
WH PVP

Blink

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.