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[Winter] Ewar Tweaks for Retribution

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Powers Sa
#61 - 2012-11-02 20:35:40 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Stat tweaks are great, but I urge you to keep looking at the core ECM mechanic itself, rather than simply its application. I still love reducing jam length with sensor strength, bringing ECM into more of a lock-breaker role that can be combined with Scan resolution dampening to create a synergistic permajam effect that relies on player skill, not slot machine probability to be effective.

Making ECM drones break locks only would be a great place to start, as they'd be a nuisance at the 1 vs 1 level but not completely imbalance a fight, and could scale up to a fleet level where a CLOUD of drones can create the permajam effect, but not a simple wing of EC-300's.

I'd also look at the sensor damp drones at this time too, there might be a tweak or two there that can make them more viable and dovetail well with the rest of the iterations you're working on here.

Also, as we've discussed internally, you really need to address the scannability factor in conjunction with increasing sensor strength through skills, if thats the way you go. Having a penalty built into command links would be a great place to start, but command ships are by no means the only ships that people want to hide from probes, so please consider this if you must go with a skill buff so we're not fixing one problem only to create another.

That's why you need to roll racial eccm implants like I do hans.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#62 - 2012-11-02 20:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Milton Middleson
Harvey James wrote:
Milton Middleson wrote:
As a TD fetishist, I think the nerf to unbonused TDs is okay. I don't think unbonused ewar should be really weak, though, especially since that is essentially what armor tankers are trading damage and speed for. Well, that and sig radius.

As a guy who thinks ECM is a terrible, terrible mechanic, I'm all for the nerf, but I don't think it actually addresses the problem. It just makes ECM worse.

Quote:
On every other ewar ship, you can fit your ewar module(s) and a tank. A reasonable tank. That is not the case with ECM boats. You can have a tank or you can be effective as ewar.

Rooks and Falcons are both capable of fitting an okay shield tank + prop and still have 4 jammers. ECM pilots choose not to tank their ships at present because there isn't much of a reason to.


most people plate falcons or rooks


Most falcons I've seen have been DC tanked, followed by armor tanked (as have most Griffins, Blackbirds and Scorpions). I've never actually seen a Rook in combat. My point is that aside from Griffins/Kitsunes, ECM pilots make a deliberate choice to forgo a decent tank in favor of MOAR JAMS, because ECM at a distance is a better tank than actual tank modules.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#63 - 2012-11-02 20:38:35 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Just remove ECM Caldari completely.


Fixed that for you.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#64 - 2012-11-02 20:57:49 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Damps will still be useless.


Not really. 2 bonused damps will take a cane's lock range to less than heated web range.

2 damps take a guardian to under 20km lock range. 3 damp it to 13km.

This is before links are added in (and take a look at the prices of info mindlinks recently)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#65 - 2012-11-02 20:58:37 UTC
Oh cool ! Caldari BS discussion. Maybe someone will answer here : what are the problems of the Raven ?

Warning : Cruise flight time is not an issue since sniping above 150km is dead ; reason is because drakes and tengu don't care at less than 100km.
Warning : Torp will receive GMP skill application.

As for the Scorpion, you only need to be creative to make it work, I admit creativity though is not really a caldari trait. Though if you cannot make a good use of eight mid slots and bonused ECM, there's nothing to do. Anyway, Scorp are used in 0.0 fleets, that's not what I call useless...
usrevenge
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2012-11-02 21:11:13 UTC
I approve, the ECM changes sound very good for now, would have to see them in action of course.

I still think the solution to ECM is make it so it breaks lock, but doesn't prevent you from relocking.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-11-02 21:11:21 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Just remove ECM Caldari completely.


Fixed that for you.

Are you implying that without ECM in its current form Caldari has a worthless ship lineup? Are you seriously saying this?? Do you even play the game????
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-11-02 21:15:50 UTC
Any chance on making the signal distortion amplifier effect all forms or E-War and not just ECM?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#69 - 2012-11-02 21:16:44 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Any chance on making the signal distortion amplifier effect all forms or E-War and not just ECM?


hahahahaha
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#70 - 2012-11-02 21:28:02 UTC
If ECM drones are not being addressed that's a real pity. Currently fitting a cloud of light ECM drones is an adequate alternative to bringing an actual jamming ship.

I am very much of the mind that ECM drones should reduce sensor strength with a stacking penalty, not actually jam on their own. They should not be a viable escape mechanism, but they should be a useful tool to complement a dedicated ECM ship.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#71 - 2012-11-02 21:29:54 UTC
I like the ability to skill up ECM resistance. Though the benefit to many of the Minmatar hulls will be limited. I am still happy to have some boost rather than none at all. Also I am sure that the other races that will gain more from these skills will at least give ECM users a few bouts of frustration in the future, and that gives me a warm feeling none the less.
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-11-02 21:30:16 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Milton Middleson wrote:
As a TD fetishist, I think the nerf to unbonused TDs is okay. I don't think unbonused ewar should be really weak, though, especially since that is essentially what armor tankers are trading damage and speed for. Well, that and sig radius.

As a guy who thinks ECM is a terrible, terrible mechanic, I'm all for the nerf, but I don't think it actually addresses the problem. It just makes ECM worse.

Quote:
On every other ewar ship, you can fit your ewar module(s) and a tank. A reasonable tank. That is not the case with ECM boats. You can have a tank or you can be effective as ewar.

Rooks and Falcons are both capable of fitting an okay shield tank + prop and still have 4 jammers. ECM pilots choose not to tank their ships at present because there isn't much of a reason to.


most people plate falcons or rooks


Most falcons I've seen have been DC tanked, followed by armor tanked (as have most Griffins, Blackbirds and Scorpions). I've never actually seen a Rook in combat. My point is that aside from Griffins/Kitsunes, ECM pilots make a deliberate choice to forgo a decent tank in favor of MOAR JAMS, because ECM at a distance is a better tank than actual tank modules.


A Lachesis, for instance, has an identical slot layout to a Rook. It does not need to use low slots to boost the strength of its disruptors/scrams to be able to tackle battleships. The Rook has to have a low slot used, and the mid-slot ewar modules are not one-module-works-on-all, so they can't roll out with one or two modules and be fit for battle. This trade off is "balanced" by the additional ~30 km range that the Rook gets over the Lach (in a fleet situation). So, a properly fit Rook is tanking & capping with the 2-3 low slots it has available (depending on whether or not you want to be effective against larger targets or not) and a spare midslot, while the Lachesis is fitting its tank with the 3 low slots and 4 midslots.

This range nerf, again, only impacts ECM boats in fleet situations (which isn't terribly common to begin with). It does absolutely nothing to deal with the vast majority of the complaints about ECM - solo or small gang warfare. So, I guess what I'm getting at is why? What is the purpose of the nerf? I really don't see how it corrects any in-game issues.
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-11-02 21:30:57 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Just remove ECM Caldari completely.


Fixed that for you.


The irony that you are a Caldari yourself seems to have escaped you...
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#74 - 2012-11-02 21:34:30 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
If ECM drones are not being addressed that's a real pity. Currently fitting a cloud of light ECM drones is an adequate alternative to bringing an actual jamming ship.

I am very much of the mind that ECM drones should reduce sensor strength with a stacking penalty, not actually jam on their own. They should not be a viable escape mechanism, but they should be a useful tool to complement a dedicated ECM ship.

In fact, the biggest part of the ECM nerf is the new skill which also work for ECM drones.

I think though the skill should only apply to ECCM modules.
Czar Marcus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2012-11-02 21:35:33 UTC
I'd like to make a suggestion.

ECM is a problem. However, It wouldn't be as much of one if ECCM wasn't useless in its current form.

ECCM should give you a chance to break Jamming cycles when activated and a passive boost your sensor strength when not.

Racial ECCM should give you a high chance to break racial jammers/bigger boost to that sensor.

Omni ECCM should give you a medium chance to break jams and a medium boost to all sensor strength

Make ECCM cycle slower than ECM. The point isn't to make ECM useless, but to provide some sort of effective measure against it.

You should also be able to use multiple ECCM modules, but have a stacking penalty with a chance of actually jamming your own ship (Maybe 10% for T1 5% for T2)
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#76 - 2012-11-02 21:40:40 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Just remove ECM Caldari completely.


Fixed that for you.

Are you implying that without ECM in its current form Caldari has a worthless ship lineup? Are you seriously saying this?? Do you even play the game????

I quite enjoy the Caldari ship lineup myself...

But if you are so in favor of removing ECM, I'll charge you with coming up with a viable EWar for the Caldari to use on their Recons, EAF's, and T1 Ewar ships.

And on top of that, it should be (very)slightly stronger then all of the other racial Ewar types, because that is a racial thing for the Caldari.

Also, make it so that it's not overpowered or underpowered.

And rebalance all 7 hulls that are bonused for it, so that they can use it properly without being overpowered.


I'm not saying that ECM isn't... frustrating, but there's a lot of work that needs to be put into replacing it before you simply throw it away. Mechanics and ships need to be changed, and they need to come up with a new idea entirely to replace it.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-11-02 21:42:29 UTC
i dont know much about ewar but surely allowing use to increase our sensor stregnth would not only badly hurt ecm (along with the range nerf) but also nearly make it completely useless when tds affect missles ?

if the answer is yes then i ask you whats the point ?
Sard Caid
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#78 - 2012-11-02 21:45:25 UTC
I like making unbonused ships using ECM less effective, and feel that's a good change. I also like the range tweak to damps, which for many pilots using them essentially translates to a strength bonus, given that I see many damp using ships using their EWAR well into that EWAR's current falloff range.

I'm more of a fan of a sensor strength skill that affects all ships with a higher rank attached to the skill. That said, I'm also more of a fan of nerfing ECM strength across the board rather than requiring pilots to devote skill training to nerfing the effects of that EWAR.

I think the TD nerf could be much more substantial, while maintaining current TD bonused ship effectiveness. As it stands, TD using ships without bonuses to them are incredibly potent, and with the Retribution patch looming, and many ships gaining midslots I see this form of EWAR becoming very popular without some type of substantial penalty to using it on unbonused ships.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#79 - 2012-11-02 21:50:04 UTC
One issue with ewar in general is that the supposed counters (TEs vs TDs, sebos vs damps) just dont work because of how the math works, and how stacking penalties work.

I think a good change would be for bonuses and penalties to be calculated based on the base amount.

For example, lets say we have a 40% scripted tracking disruptor, and a 20% tracking enhancer, on a ship with 10km optimal.

20% TE bonus = 2km.
40% TD penalty = 4km.

Final range is 8km optimal.

Currently, the way it works is 10km optimal * 1.2 (TE bonus) * .6 (TD penalty) = 7.2km optimal.

A 20% range bonus and 20% range penalty should really just negate each other, but what happens is the penalty is applied to the bonused amount, and ends up in an overall penalty. Things get even worse when you consider in game numbers (when penalties are almost always stronger than bonuses), and account for stacking penalties.
aetherguy881
Grouchy Rediculous Ugly Man Pigs
#80 - 2012-11-02 21:50:38 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

I like that Damps are getting fixed... but they can be really farking annoying. Unlike ECM, they almost never miss. Damps won't miss either way after this.


That's because it's 100% chance, but the effect isn't as such as an ECM.