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[Winter] New destroyers

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ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#841 - 2012-10-27 14:06:28 UTC
Apolagies for double post but as an example of the Caldari destroyers hilarious pg you require two anc current rigs in order to make a standard pvp close range rocket fit.

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.
Johnny Bloomington
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#842 - 2012-10-27 20:58:56 UTC
ConranAntoni wrote:
Apolagies for double post but as an example of the Caldari destroyers hilarious pg you require two anc current rigs in order to make a standard pvp close range rocket fit.

Maybe CCP doesn't want you to have a close range rocket fit.

CCP wish list: show damage on ships and open that door!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#843 - 2012-10-27 22:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
err, scram him! Yeah, I meant scram him.

The amarr dessie will carry a full rack of ec-300s. That, along with the neuts will be enough for him to bail on any frigate if things don't go as planned.



Why scram him. The frigate is faster than the dessie can ever hope to be. He can play with point, and just outrun him. He can shoot down drones at leisure, and the Neuts will rarely come into play. I may be wrong, since I can't get onto my comp to try them out, but I am predicting the Amarr new dessie will not do well at all. In particular compared to the other 3 dessies.

The Amarr destroyer has 3 flights of drones available, so "shooting down drones at leisure" is a bit problematic. Couple that with 3 turrets or 3 launchers, the best the frigate can hope for is to warp out before it dies as it can't kite for long and it certainly can't go in close.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Kai'rae Saarkus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#844 - 2012-10-27 23:07:04 UTC
Johnny Bloomington wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:

Neut going out to 12ish K range on a ship that can not go NEARLY as fast as a frigate. How exactly is it going to be able to get close enough to use those neuts?
~Z

How is the frigate going to get close enough to web him??!!


tech 2 web is 13km right? or is that with it overheated?


With overheat.

Which is kinda the reason nobody really overheats Neuts (often); + Neuting power isn't really that beneficial at the cost of damaging your weapons, whereas +range is much more of a game changer.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#845 - 2012-10-27 23:18:10 UTC
Kai'rae Saarkus wrote:
Johnny Bloomington wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:

Neut going out to 12ish K range on a ship that can not go NEARLY as fast as a frigate. How exactly is it going to be able to get close enough to use those neuts?
~Z

How is the frigate going to get close enough to web him??!!


tech 2 web is 13km right? or is that with it overheated?


With overheat.

Which is kinda the reason nobody really overheats Neuts (often); + Neuting power isn't really that beneficial at the cost of damaging your weapons, whereas +range is much more of a game changer.

Overheating probably should affect neut range, but that would be tricky to balance vs tackling mod ranges. Still, it makes more sense.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Kai'rae Saarkus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#846 - 2012-10-28 00:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kai'rae Saarkus
Ranger 1 wrote:
Kai'rae Saarkus wrote:
Johnny Bloomington wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:

Neut going out to 12ish K range on a ship that can not go NEARLY as fast as a frigate. How exactly is it going to be able to get close enough to use those neuts?
~Z

How is the frigate going to get close enough to web him??!!


tech 2 web is 13km right? or is that with it overheated?


With overheat.

Which is kinda the reason nobody really overheats Neuts (often); + Neuting power isn't really that beneficial at the cost of damaging your weapons, whereas +range is much more of a game changer.

Overheating probably should affect neut range, but that would be tricky to balance vs tackling mod ranges. Still, it makes more sense.


It doesn't really make more sense.
It breaks the ability of Inties to tackle BS's with neuts.
It almost certainly breaks Kiting Lazor boats (frigs vs close range Cruisers).
It breaks any frig set up designed to kite just within scram/web range.
It breaks frig blaster set ups.
It benefits Winmatar at the expense of Gallente and Amarr.

(Although, you could maybe balance it by having a ridiculously high Heat output that means running more than 1 cycle threatens to burn out your weapons).

But, if you look at what modules get overheated the most. Generally it's tackle and MWDs, followed by tank, then weapon systems.
Overheating is effective on these modules becaues, use at the right moment, it can swing a fight. Whereas, just a little extra Neuting ability won't (usually) turn a fight.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#847 - 2012-10-28 00:52:09 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
err, scram him! Yeah, I meant scram him.

The amarr dessie will carry a full rack of ec-300s. That, along with the neuts will be enough for him to bail on any frigate if things don't go as planned.



Why scram him. The frigate is faster than the dessie can ever hope to be. He can play with point, and just outrun him. He can shoot down drones at leisure, and the Neuts will rarely come into play. I may be wrong, since I can't get onto my comp to try them out, but I am predicting the Amarr new dessie will not do well at all. In particular compared to the other 3 dessies.

The Amarr destroyer has 3 flights of drones available, so "shooting down drones at leisure" is a bit problematic. Couple that with 3 turrets or 3 launchers, the best the frigate can hope for is to warp out before it dies as it can't kite for long and it certainly can't go in close.


I see your side, I just don't know if I agree that it will be as effective as the other Dessies in application. Anyone had a chance to test it out vs Frigs, AFs, other Dessies, and Cruisers yet? Would love to see some feedback on it.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#848 - 2012-10-28 01:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuehnelt
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
I see your side, I just don't know if I agree that it will be as effective as the other Dessies in application. Anyone had a chance to test it out vs Frigs, AFs, other Dessies, and Cruisers yet? Would love to see some feedback on it.


My experience: it can be kited very easily. If it's not kited, it has trouble against cap-injecting enemies. If it's not kited and if the enemy doesn't have a cap injector, it tends to win. I've killed every other new destroyer and an Enyo. I've died to a Cambion, kitey Gallente and Minmatar new destroyers, and some cap-injecty fits that I forget. I've killed it with a Slicer and with the fit below.

Haven't seen nosferatu against it, yet.

It's also a decent maurader: salvage drones, two tractor beams, a rocket launcher (what else fits?), ANP instead of 200mm plate, otherwise as below. It loses a bit of DPS and an offensive flight of drones - which isn't much, for it, and it gains the ability to loot and salvage after the fight. I killed the rats at a medium FW site with it more easily than I have with arbitrators on TQ, and then didn't want kill myself while looting all of the tags and salvaging the wrecks, so that's two thumbs up (although CCP is changing how the FW plexes work.)

I've mostly flown with this:

Quote:
[new Amarr destroyer, active neut]

Damage Control II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Small Armor Repairer II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hornet EC-300 x5
Warrior II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#849 - 2012-10-28 01:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyella Stormborn
Thank you Kuehnelt, I've been a nervous wreck about the new Amarr Dessie. I feel a bit better so far after reading your feedback.

Now if they will just fix the drone UI..... *grin*

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#850 - 2012-10-28 02:52:13 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Thank you Kuehnelt, I've been a nervous wreck about the new Amarr Dessie. I feel a bit better so far after reading your feedback.

Now if they will just fix the drone UI..... *grin*

~Z


Drone UI Idea....
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#851 - 2012-10-28 03:03:48 UTC
Interesting Ideas Zarnak. Having some decent hotkey control, and an easy way to launch or assign targets / pull em off would be very helpful.

Having the ability to set drones to attempt to auto-dock when going to warp would be nice as well.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#852 - 2012-10-28 03:06:46 UTC
Johnny Bloomington wrote:
ConranAntoni wrote:
Apolagies for double post but as an example of the Caldari destroyers hilarious pg you require two anc current rigs in order to make a standard pvp close range rocket fit.

Maybe CCP doesn't want you to have a close range rocket fit.


GJ completely missing the point of the post. Fact their easier to fit than the Light Missile Launchers clearly would not suggest it's at all terrible.

Get a clue.

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#853 - 2012-10-28 03:55:25 UTC
It would be far better if CCP tested one item at a time and seeded the server to that effect. I.e. - destroyers and frigates one weekend. Cruisers the next. Then maybe both the weekend after that.

I've managed to log onto the test server twice over this weekend so far - both times I've seen lots of Vindicators and Machs. You can examine fits and check out some of the UI improvements but it's hard to do much else.

Personally - I don't know why the new destroyers have to be larger and slower then their older counterparts. I can design a cormorant that shoots out to 100km. The new Caldari destroyer locks to 56km? Yet the Cormorant is lighter and 4m smaller then the Missile boat.

Similarly I can design a Coercer that will shoot out to 60km. A thrasher that will hit at 54km. And a rail cat that can lock and hit out to 66km. All of the newer versions for the races above are larger and slower without much in the way of justification. There may be something amiss when the Naga, a caldari BC, can give a destroyer a run for it's money in a drag race.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#854 - 2012-10-28 06:46:24 UTC
To those who could test the new Amarrian destroyer:

With the bonus to drone speed, does it make Amarrian drones viable again?
Would be so sweet to actually deal other damage than explosive (Warriors II) to fast frigates...

Second question: I suppose the bonus to drone damage does not affect the amount of cap drained by energy neutralizer drones, right?

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#855 - 2012-10-28 07:10:55 UTC
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
To those who could test the new Amarrian destroyer:

With the bonus to drone speed, does it make Amarrian drones viable again?
Would be so sweet to actually deal other damage than explosive (Warriors II) to fast frigates...

Second question: I suppose the bonus to drone damage does not affect the amount of cap drained by energy neutralizer drones, right?


As I've tried out drones have trouble chasing MWDing frigates,a frigate easily runs in circles around the drone destroyers and can kite the drones while dealing damage. In many cases you will die before you get the frigate into structure.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#856 - 2012-10-28 07:16:07 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
To those who could test the new Amarrian destroyer:

With the bonus to drone speed, does it make Amarrian drones viable again?
Would be so sweet to actually deal other damage than explosive (Warriors II) to fast frigates...

Second question: I suppose the bonus to drone damage does not affect the amount of cap drained by energy neutralizer drones, right?


As I've tried out drones have trouble chasing MWDing frigates,a frigate easily runs in circles around the drone destroyers and can kite the drones while dealing damage. In many cases you will die before you get the frigate into structure.



Cry

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#857 - 2012-10-28 07:31:19 UTC
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
To those who could test the new Amarrian destroyer:

With the bonus to drone speed, does it make Amarrian drones viable again?
Would be so sweet to actually deal other damage than explosive (Warriors II) to fast frigates...

Second question: I suppose the bonus to drone damage does not affect the amount of cap drained by energy neutralizer drones, right?


As I've tried out drones have trouble chasing MWDing frigates,a frigate easily runs in circles around the drone destroyers and can kite the drones while dealing damage. In many cases you will die before you get the frigate into structure.



Cry


I haven't tested these new destroyers but it seems curious to me that frigs would be able to outrun the drones easily, regular warriors top out at 6.3km/s with perfect skills, or 7.3km/s with the bonus, thats pretty darn fast and only a ridiculous speed set up on an inty with snakes and overhead can hope to reach that speed.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#858 - 2012-10-28 07:37:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Soon Shin
Dato Koppla wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
To those who could test the new Amarrian destroyer:

With the bonus to drone speed, does it make Amarrian drones viable again?
Would be so sweet to actually deal other damage than explosive (Warriors II) to fast frigates...

Second question: I suppose the bonus to drone damage does not affect the amount of cap drained by energy neutralizer drones, right?


As I've tried out drones have trouble chasing MWDing frigates,a frigate easily runs in circles around the drone destroyers and can kite the drones while dealing damage. In many cases you will die before you get the frigate into structure.



Cry


I haven't tested these new destroyers but it seems curious to me that frigs would be able to outrun the drones easily, regular warriors top out at 6.3km/s with perfect skills, or 7.3km/s with the bonus, thats pretty darn fast and only a ridiculous speed set up on an inty with snakes and overhead can hope to reach that speed.


If that were the case maybe, but unfortunately when pursuing a target, drones fly very fast to catch up to the target and then slow down and try to orbit. Unfortunately, when they do this they slow down to nearly a stop and the frigate zooms right out before the drones can start their orbiting sequence. The drones then have to chase again and the cycle repeats.

Other times the drones for some strange reason do not reach their max speed when trying to pursue a slower, yet still fast moving target, allowing the ship to outrun them.

Heck I've tested it out with a cynabal going at 2,000 m/s and I was outrunning the warriors. Something about that code messes with them and makes them perform poorly against high speed moving targets.

The only time I've seen warrior go their max speed is when trying to travel to the target from a distance, when trying to chase the target they slow down quite a bit.

The drone code is broken and needs a serious revamp.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#859 - 2012-10-28 07:44:38 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
To those who could test the new Amarrian destroyer:

With the bonus to drone speed, does it make Amarrian drones viable again?
Would be so sweet to actually deal other damage than explosive (Warriors II) to fast frigates...

Second question: I suppose the bonus to drone damage does not affect the amount of cap drained by energy neutralizer drones, right?


As I've tried out drones have trouble chasing MWDing frigates,a frigate easily runs in circles around the drone destroyers and can kite the drones while dealing damage. In many cases you will die before you get the frigate into structure.



Cry


I haven't tested these new destroyers but it seems curious to me that frigs would be able to outrun the drones easily, regular warriors top out at 6.3km/s with perfect skills, or 7.3km/s with the bonus, thats pretty darn fast and only a ridiculous speed set up on an inty with snakes and overhead can hope to reach that speed.


If that were the case maybe, but unfortunately when pursuing a target, drones fly very fast to catch up to the target and then slow down and try to orbit. Unfortunately, when they do this they slow down to nearly a stop and the frigate zooms right out before the drones can start their orbiting sequence. The drones then have to chase again and the cycle repeats.

Other times the drones for some strange reason do not reach their max speed when trying to pursue a slower, yet still fast moving target, allowing the ship to outrun them.

Heck I've tested it out with a cynabal going at 2,000 m/s and I was outrunning the warriors. Something about that code messes with them and makes them perform poorly against high speed moving targets.

The drone code is broken and needs a serious revamp.


Ah thanks for clarification. Yeah everyone agrees drone UI and AI is bad.
Jon Marburg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#860 - 2012-10-28 14:34:18 UTC
I really wish there was some more ccp feedback in this thread. Are our comments and suggestions even being read? Are the destroyers already finalized at the current iteration or can we expect further changes once singularity goes live and players get to mass test these?