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Moderation discussion thread

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Author
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#181 - 2012-10-22 18:37:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Bart Starr
CCP Falcon wrote:


These threads have been permitted to stay due to the fact that so many of them sprung up after the Incarna launch. We felt it better that we had a centralized place for each of these topics rather than 500 separate threads on the same thing. As such we selected the most popular of each of them and allowed them to remain, then closed the surplus threads.

Really, it's not rocket science that this is what happened and is blatantly obvious to anyone that this is why these threads remain open.

The fact of the matter is that you can try and push on technicalities and grey areas all day. In the end, these threads are there to assist us in keeping the subjects contained into single threads, and the ISD team with their moderation duties. These threads are moderated just the same as any other thread on the forums, and if you have an issue with a post that's made in them you can use the report button and it'll be reviewed.


The problem that I have with those threads is that they constantly take up space on the front page of GD. Its just clutter, and removing clutter is the entire purpose of locking duplicate threads. Just because there may have been 15 of them before, reducing the number to 5 doesn't make the remainder any less 'duplicate'.

Don't muddy the waters here - this is not a 'grey area' or 'technicality.'
"Like and get Likes' is even worse, its simply a thread about itself. Hundreds of pages of 'no EVE content'. And threads 'with no EVE content' are locked in every other case I've ever seen.

If the threads were actually EVE related, I'd not have a problem but even a cursory glance at them indicates they are just chatrooms for a small group of serial posters. There is a forum for this kind of thing - its called OOPE.

If I could hide threads, I'd be happy. But that is not possible.
If rules weren't quite so strictly enforced, I could let it slide.
But today, they are....so at least enforce them uniformly.

Those threads are obnoxious to a hell of a lot of forum posters.
So get on with it and enforce your own rules - or remove the rule entirely and let others **** up the forum with nonsense posts.

Solutions in order of preference:
A) Lock the threads.
B) Lock the redundant threads, and keep "Rate this Avatar", move "Like and get Likes" to OOPE.
C) Move all of them to OOPE (but prepare from complaints from OOPE residents, because they understand that these threads are simply eyesores, and they hate being dumping grounds for crap threads.)
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#182 - 2012-10-23 11:49:56 UTC
And honestly you wonder why people complain:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=165745&find=unread

Get it wrong then direct people to the trial by fire that is the petition system.

And we all know where that leads.
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#183 - 2012-10-23 12:47:27 UTC
I have replied to that specific issue separately, but once again, please use this thread for discussing moderation in general terms, not specific actions.

thanks.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#184 - 2012-10-23 17:50:25 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:


These threads have been permitted to stay due to the fact that so many of them sprung up after the Incarna launch. We felt it better that we had a centralized place for each of these topics rather than 500 separate threads on the same thing. As such we selected the most popular of each of them and allowed them to remain, then closed the surplus threads.

Really, it's not rocket science that this is what happened and is blatantly obvious to anyone that this is why these threads remain open.

The fact of the matter is that you can try and push on technicalities and grey areas all day. In the end, these threads are there to assist us in keeping the subjects contained into single threads, and the ISD team with their moderation duties. These threads are moderated just the same as any other thread on the forums, and if you have an issue with a post that's made in them you can use the report button and it'll be reviewed.


The problem that I have with those threads is that they constantly take up space on the front page of GD. Its just clutter, and removing clutter is the entire purpose of locking duplicate threads. Just because there may have been 15 of them before, reducing the number to 5 doesn't make the remainder any less 'duplicate'.

Don't muddy the waters here - this is not a 'grey area' or 'technicality.'
"Like and get Likes' is even worse, its simply a thread about itself. Hundreds of pages of 'no EVE content'. And threads 'with no EVE content' are locked in every other case I've ever seen.

If the threads were actually EVE related, I'd not have a problem but even a cursory glance at them indicates they are just chatrooms for a small group of serial posters. There is a forum for this kind of thing - its called OOPE.

If I could hide threads, I'd be happy. But that is not possible.
If rules weren't quite so strictly enforced, I could let it slide.
But today, they are....so at least enforce them uniformly.

Those threads are obnoxious to a hell of a lot of forum posters.
So get on with it and enforce your own rules - or remove the rule entirely and let others **** up the forum with nonsense posts.

Solutions in order of preference:
A) Lock the threads.
B) Lock the redundant threads, and keep "Rate this Avatar", move "Like and get Likes" to OOPE.
C) Move all of them to OOPE (but prepare from complaints from OOPE residents, because they understand that these threads are simply eyesores, and they hate being dumping grounds for crap threads.)


This...
Azumi Zimu
#185 - 2012-10-23 18:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Azumi Zimu


I like this quote

Quote:
"Ranting, rumour-mongering and baseless accusations are not allowed on these forums - ISD Type40."

What the hell is anyone supposed to do on the forums now then.


What exactly is the goal of this moderation? To make the forums as boring as possible? Does CCP and the ISD think people come here just for the privilege of being around their posts?

I'd rather not see blue/isd posts unless it's specifically about EVE (as in the game EVE).

I have my own opinions about the quality of their opinion posts which I have to keep silent, I think they should keep silent to.
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#186 - 2012-10-24 07:45:54 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:


These threads have been permitted to stay due to the fact that so many of them sprung up after the Incarna launch. We felt it better that we had a centralized place for each of these topics rather than 500 separate threads on the same thing. As such we selected the most popular of each of them and allowed them to remain, then closed the surplus threads.

Really, it's not rocket science that this is what happened and is blatantly obvious to anyone that this is why these threads remain open.

The fact of the matter is that you can try and push on technicalities and grey areas all day. In the end, these threads are there to assist us in keeping the subjects contained into single threads, and the ISD team with their moderation duties. These threads are moderated just the same as any other thread on the forums, and if you have an issue with a post that's made in them you can use the report button and it'll be reviewed.


The problem that I have with those threads is that they constantly take up space on the front page of GD. Its just clutter, and removing clutter is the entire purpose of locking duplicate threads. Just because there may have been 15 of them before, reducing the number to 5 doesn't make the remainder any less 'duplicate'.

Don't muddy the waters here - this is not a 'grey area' or 'technicality.'
"Like and get Likes' is even worse, its simply a thread about itself. Hundreds of pages of 'no EVE content'. And threads 'with no EVE content' are locked in every other case I've ever seen.

If the threads were actually EVE related, I'd not have a problem but even a cursory glance at them indicates they are just chatrooms for a small group of serial posters. There is a forum for this kind of thing - its called OOPE.

If I could hide threads, I'd be happy. But that is not possible.
If rules weren't quite so strictly enforced, I could let it slide.
But today, they are....so at least enforce them uniformly.

Those threads are obnoxious to a hell of a lot of forum posters.
So get on with it and enforce your own rules - or remove the rule entirely and let others **** up the forum with nonsense posts.

Solutions in order of preference:
A) Lock the threads.
B) Lock the redundant threads, and keep "Rate this Avatar", move "Like and get Likes" to OOPE.
C) Move all of them to OOPE (but prepare from complaints from OOPE residents, because they understand that these threads are simply eyesores, and they hate being dumping grounds for crap threads.)


It's a rule, but it's not a rule.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

CCP Falcon
#187 - 2012-10-26 18:28:36 UTC

Since this has been an issue over the last few weeks, I'd like to point it out :

Quote:
29. Personal attacks and abuse of CCP staff.

There has been a worrying trend of increased personal attacks on developers on our own forums as of late, this will not be tolerated. Our forums are an area for players to exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who abuse staff will receive a permanent forum ban across all of their accounts which will not be subject to review at any time.


There have been a number of incidents over the last few weeks where members of ISD have been subject to abuse.

This rule also includes ISD staff, and any users of these forums who abuse, flame, or make personal attacks on members of the ISD Volunteer team will be subject to the same zero tolerance policy.

While both CCP and the ISD Volunteer team enjoy banter, a little humor and fun times, there has to be a line. This is not something that we want to have to do, but those who cross the line will be subject to the appropriate action for violation of this rule.





CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#188 - 2012-10-26 18:44:17 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

Since this has been an issue over the last few weeks, I'd like to point it out :

Quote:
29. Personal attacks and abuse of CCP staff.

There has been a worrying trend of increased personal attacks on developers on our own forums as of late, this will not be tolerated. Our forums are an area for players to exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who abuse staff will receive a permanent forum ban across all of their accounts which will not be subject to review at any time.


There have been a number of incidents over the last few weeks where members of ISD have been subject to abuse.

This rule also includes ISD staff, and any users of these forums who abuse, flame, or make personal attacks on members of the ISD Volunteer team will be subject to the same zero tolerance policy.

While both CCP and the ISD Volunteer team enjoy banter, a little humor and fun times, there has to be a line. This is not something that we want to have to do, but those who cross the line will be subject to the appropriate action for violation of this rule.







How about this: Some member of the ISD wants to make a joke in a thread, or post some comment arguing for or against some thought in a thread, they do it with a non-ISD char.

The only time I want to see an ISD post is when he is censoring someone, or locking a thread....what am I saying...I NEVER want to see an ISD.

If CCP employees make bad bad decisions that affect the game, they should be called out. Telling some dev that his idea is a disaster is not a personal attack. Stating that his mother dresses him funny is.
CCP Falcon
#189 - 2012-10-26 19:04:34 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
How about this: Some member of the ISD wants to make a joke in a thread, or post some comment arguing for or against some thought in a thread, they do it with a non-ISD char.

The only time I want to see an ISD post is when he is censoring someone, or locking a thread....what am I saying...I NEVER want to see an ISD.

If CCP employees make bad bad decisions that affect the game, they should be called out. Telling some dev that his idea is a disaster is not a personal attack. Stating that his mother dresses him funny is.


I agree to an extent, allow me to explain :

If you have anything you'd like to say about EVE, or would like to contribute to the community in a positive way then you're more than welcome to post on these forums so long as you do so in a civil manner that falls within the rules, and the post is placed in the relevant section of the forums for the discussion. Constructive criticism and pointers on improvement are also massively valued from players. We love to hear what you'd like us to work on for the game, because as well as being players, you're also our customers.

That said, these forums need to act as a good, solid conduit for discussion. That's why the rules are in place. When they're broken, people are dealt with accordingly.

In terms of ISD, I agree with you to an extent.

You must however remember that there are also people behind those ISD avatars you see, and those people are volunteers, who aren't paid by CCP, and should not have to deal with abuse, slander, flaming and personal attacks. Those people volunteer their spare time to assist us, and more often than not are in the line of fire along with the Community Team when players get agitated.

This can be a massive task, and CCP have nothing but endless thanks for the ISD volunteer team for their assistance, regardless of their division and duty.

I was an ISD volunteer for many years before I joined CCP, so I'm speaking from personal experience here. Please bear in mind that it also helps them do their duties as volunteers if they can become more familiar with the Community under their ISD persona, and build a little rapport with the playerbase. This is why they're allowed a little freedom to enter discussion and speak with people as volunteers.

I hope you can understand this Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#190 - 2012-10-27 05:44:17 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
You must however remember that there are also people behind those ISD avatars you see, and those people are volunteers, who aren't paid by CCP, and should not have to deal with abuse, slander, flaming and personal attacks. Those people volunteer their spare time to assist us, and more often than not are in the line of fire along with the Community Team when players get agitated.
There's that word again.

Honestly, the ISD are made up forum alts, for made up playing alts for a made up game. "Slander" indeed.

We can't take you seriously when you take yourselves far too seriously.

If the ISD are just players like us that are remarkably protected.

Abuse - yep, I get that nearly every time I post on these forums. Got some nice EVE mails.
Flaming - yep, I get that too.
Personal attacks - more common than anything else.
"Slander" - LOL, yeah. I'll make up a new definition for that too, so you can consider me "slandered".

Can I be an ISD too so all my forum foes can be perma-banned because of my delicate sensitivities?

"Slander" - a joke.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2012-10-28 16:17:46 UTC
...no but seriously, in regards to the constant (and latest) spamming and trolling that has been going on here for who knows how long now; to whomever decides how these forums are run: seriously, what the heck do you do against these pests? Do you just lock threads and pat the offenders on their heads whilst giving them milk and cookies or do you guys actually deal with these guys in a serious way?

And by serious I mean tracking down every single account that is tied to the poster (which should be easy as pie) and using the mighty ban-hammer for a period of time. A long long period of time.

Sure these forums are rowdy by nature and all, but at the same time it is getting too annoying seeing this group of wannabe's posting useless stuff all the time. And then there are the outright spammers who probably haven't even grown pubes yet. Why do we even need them at all?

Rough attitude, cheekiness and sarcasm aside, there is a too high level of disrespect towards CCP in general and frankly the forum moderators start to look like wimps in my eyes - regardless of whether their own hands are tied or not. And this reflects directly on the content that is in this forum. A certain amount of silliness, fun threads and stuff is always fine, but outright trash; it really starts to get on your nerves after a while.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#192 - 2012-10-28 19:13:09 UTC
Is there a reason all Ice interdiction threads have been locked out of GD or moved out to desolate sub forums?

From my POV looks like the SA folks have done agood job of keeping these threads off topic or just plain shut down Lol I see ISD type 40 is promising to re open a lockedthread after he cleans it up a hour ago andsort of feel sorry forhim but I tend to think he should just let the Goons go wild with thier attempts to throw off thier frustrations at being blueballed in the forums.

If ISD type 40 was around when mittens was thrown out of Eve for a month & tossed out on his arse from the CSM I think his portrait would have gone bald ( likemine Big smile ) from his pulling out all his hair from all the thread locks that would have happened Lol
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Onyxius Leone DeSilva
Doomheim
#193 - 2012-10-28 22:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Onyxius Leone DeSilva
ISD Suvetar wrote:


If you've not seen it, we held a seminar this weekend - this is the transcript. I like to think it's interesting reading!

SadShocked I don't see any regular players in there, yet I recall it was advertised in the MOTDs in the help channels. That's so sad. I'd meant to attend but couldn't find the channel to go to. I guess I wasn't the only one who couldn't figure out where to go...
ISD Athechu
ISD STAR
#194 - 2012-10-28 23:12:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Athechu
Onyxius Leone DeSilva wrote:
ISD Suvetar wrote:


If you've not seen it, we held a seminar this weekend - this is the transcript. I like to think it's interesting reading!

SadShocked I don't see any regular players in there, yet I recall it was advertised in the MOTDs in the help channels. That's so sad. I'd meant to attend but couldn't find the channel to go to. I guess I wasn't the only one who couldn't figure out where to go...


ISD Seminars are hosted by the ISD:STAR team so I can answer this quickly.

To just quickly explain there are 2 channels that we use. 'Seminars' and 'Seminar Q&A' (note this one doesn't have an 's' at the end of it). We post the transcript of the 'Seminars' Channel where no one but ISD/GM/CCP members can talk. All questions come from the 'Seminar Q&A' channel where players are free to talk in.

The reason behind this is to avoid it looking like the Help Channels where people just post lots of questions avoids questions being lost as sometimes many questions arise quickly. We have one ISD member pull questions while another answers so our guest talk in the main 'Seminars' Channel. I was watching the amount of people we had in the channels and we had about 110 at peek and about 80 when we were said and done. With about 50-60 in the Q&A Channel. So that just gives some ideas about how many players attended.

When the channels aren't in use we use moderated mode to prevent misuse of the channels as they are there for Official use. Also the channel mode isn't set for immediate use (where the max people in that channel is 50) so that might also be a reason why no it looks like no one is in there.

More information about ISD Seminars can be located here: ISD Seminars

If you have questions about ISD Seminars please feel free to post in that thread or mail me directly with questions.

ISD Athechu

STAR Executive

EVE New Citizens Q&A Resources

Helping Players Since 2011

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#195 - 2012-10-29 01:16:40 UTC
First thing's first. I'm really pleased that this thread actually showed up and didn't get pushed into the SoonTM pile that I expected it to land in when the other discuss moderation topic got unstickied.

Next up.
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Burrobot, your opinions are noted; however please refer to the OP in this thread; we're here to discuss moderation in general terms, not specifics.

Sorry, but we here call linking to specific moderator actions "Evidence" and "Examples" when in the context of broader issues. I agree that "This piece of moderation is biased" posts would be tiring and boring, but I think we can all agree that "I have detected a problem with the way posts are being moderated, examples are [Link] [Link] [4ChanTrapLink] and [Link]" is improved by (and indeed only useful with) 3 of the 4 bracketed things. (P.S. In the event this post gets moderated, there were never any links in the brackets)*

*P.P.S. It's sad that I think that postscript's a useful thing to write.


Finally, the topic at hand at the time the old thread fell off a cliff.

Since when are the rules of one Subforum (C&P to be specific) applicable to another, quite different, subforum (Specifically, GD)? Example. NB: Examples != Discussion of a Specific Moderation activity.

Last time I checked, the rules of COAD, Character Bazaar, etc. do not apply to GD. Why is it that certain ISDs believe that the rules of C&P apply to GD?



For now, I'm going to leave aside the insane claims that maintaining any ESRB rating (or even following the ESRB's guidelines*) is somehow a legal requirement.

*Especially when those guidelines specifically state that player generated content is exempt.

... OK, I guess that's not quite leaving that one aside.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#196 - 2012-10-29 09:32:12 UTC
Rumor mongering about ISD is a bad thing, people.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents

Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#197 - 2012-10-29 15:54:17 UTC
Just noticed a post of mine vanished between last night and now (along with at least 3 others). Yay for noticing.


Can't figure out why though. One of them it would make sense (rather flaming and rude, had more censored than notLol), but mine and the other one don't make sense at all.What?

So this is a general question to those who moderate (and if it has been asked and answered before I apologize): is there a set policy for when to remove posts without saying why? Or is it up to the moderator to let us know why they made the posts vanish?
Just curious.

CCP Gargant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#198 - 2012-10-29 16:14:50 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Just noticed a post of mine vanished between last night and now (along with at least 3 others). Yay for noticing.


Can't figure out why though. One of them it would make sense (rather flaming and rude, had more censored than notLol), but mine and the other one don't make sense at all.What?

So this is a general question to those who moderate (and if it has been asked and answered before I apologize): is there a set policy for when to remove posts without saying why? Or is it up to the moderator to let us know why they made the posts vanish?
Just curious.



When we remove posts, we generally have an unwritten rule that we leave a post that explains why some posts were removed. If there is no reason listed, feel free to either report the thread with the question or file a petition to get an explanation.

CCP Gargant | EVE Universe esports Coordinator

Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#199 - 2012-10-29 21:10:28 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Just noticed a post of mine vanished between last night and now (along with at least 3 others). Yay for noticing.


Can't figure out why though. One of them it would make sense (rather flaming and rude, had more censored than notLol), but mine and the other one don't make sense at all.What?

So this is a general question to those who moderate (and if it has been asked and answered before I apologize): is there a set policy for when to remove posts without saying why? Or is it up to the moderator to let us know why they made the posts vanish?
Just curious.



When we remove posts, we generally have an unwritten rule that we leave a post that explains why some posts were removed. If there is no reason listed, feel free to either report the thread with the question or file a petition to get an explanation.

Got it. Thanks.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#200 - 2012-10-29 21:36:29 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
CCP Gargant wrote:
When we remove posts, we generally have an unwritten rule that we leave a post that explains why some posts were removed. If there is no reason listed, feel free to either report the thread with the question or file a petition to get an explanation.

Why is it that this is an "unwritten rule?" I feel I must be overlooking something, as my initial reaction was "the written rule should be thou shalt make an explanatory post when deleting other posts." And then have to justify (to higher ups; not us) those rare occasions (that I'm unable to imagine presently) where it is necessary to delete posts and not explain why it was done.

MDD