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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#481 - 2011-10-18 19:26:23 UTC
I certainly won't do PI now. Why risk someone putting my tax to 100% or limiting my exports and denying me the ability to do imports. Seriously. Now I need to call on my alliance to handle attacks on my PI, which isn't very profitable anyway. No way.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Apathetic Brent
TURN LEFT
#482 - 2011-10-18 19:27:33 UTC
Scarlett Ninja wrote:
Right.......where to start!

I currently run a small alt corp that does PI in Sydicate space, the system i do this in has a station with medical so is rather busy.

There is one large Alliance that uses this system as their base, the system always has their members present.

I have 3 characters running PI in this system, all transportation has to be done covertly and a Jumpfreighter is needed to get the goods to market.

So....... the odds of me being the person who has control of the customs office is zero, if i launch it will be destroyed by the resident Alliance ( they are like that! )

They can set the standings to allow only their alliance access or put taxes so high it is unprofitable so deniying me the oppertunity to do PI........( remember this is syndicate NPC space )

I read a blog a little while ago saying that CCP were going to make it easier for small corps or solo players to get a foothold in 0.0.........how is this PI change doing that?

I already have made a substantial investment in skills, time and isk and risk enough already i think!

I also note that all the ppl saying this is good are also the ones asking about how much HP the CO will have, i'm sure there must be a link there :P

Basicaly you have just anexed my sorce of income and given the keys to the biggest Alliance around......thanks for f**k all!


You mad, Bro? We moved in just to grief your PI efforts.
Nyrak
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#483 - 2011-10-18 19:29:57 UTC
In the long run, I have this feeling my little out of the way set-up in high sec space is going to get crowded.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#484 - 2011-10-18 19:29:58 UTC
I think this may be the worst idea from CCP in a long while! And worse ever is that they seem to have been wasting resources on this secretly that should have been put on all the other things they have already promised and never delivered.

Why is this a bad idea? It makes low sec even less accessable to the "little guy"! Instead of making those "care bears" that everyone wants to tempt to go into spaces with greater risk it eliminates on element in Eve that was making them temp fate, dip their toe into some risk. PI. Now PI will be yet another thing too risky as compared to the reward in low sec, just like mining has become. No one mines in low sec because it isn't worth the risk and now no one will PI in low sec for the same reason.

If you have an alliance with the "chops" to get what you need to build one of these structures and defend it you aren't wasting your time in low sec, you are out being awesome for much bigger rewards in null sec. But if you are a big alliance with a bunch of caps you no longer fight with because of recent nerfs and love to grief (sound like anyone?) you will start "Custogedeon" and make popping these things your new hobby.

I think this could make sense as part of a null sec revamp, the idea that you could also control the planets in the area you control makes total sense, but this is just yet another bad idea for low sec, CCP stop the hating on low sec!!

CCP, I no longer have confidence you are capable of creating a future for your game. I was till now, but I see you really don't get it. Please, everyone in CCP that likes this idea form an orderly line and jump into the nearest active volcano.

Issler
Alua Oresson
League of the Shieldy
SLYCE Pirates
#485 - 2011-10-18 19:30:31 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
I certainly won't do PI now. Why risk someone putting my tax to 100% or limiting my exports and denying me the ability to do imports. Seriously. Now I need to call on my alliance to handle attacks on my PI, which isn't very profitable anyway. No way.


Oh, I'd say that PI materials will get to be VERY profitable after this change.

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#486 - 2011-10-18 19:33:14 UTC
Alua Oresson wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
I certainly won't do PI now. Why risk someone putting my tax to 100% or limiting my exports and denying me the ability to do imports. Seriously. Now I need to call on my alliance to handle attacks on my PI, which isn't very profitable anyway. No way.


Oh, I'd say that PI materials will get to be VERY profitable after this change.


This is assuming that you'll be able to produce. The main complain in this thread isn't the profitability. We're concerned about a large porition of people responsible for market supply not being able to supply anymore and the problems related to that.
Saira Jin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#487 - 2011-10-18 19:34:25 UTC
Don't know if someone has brought this up yet, but if you run the numbers from the past, you will notice that the average player paid 150,000 to 200,000 isk per MONTH per planet as export taxes in 0.0.

At that rate, a corp will need 300 months if there is just the one colony on the planet to recoup a 50 million isk investment for a customs office! Okay, so there are 10 colonies on a planet, it will still take 30 months!! This is assuming that the tax rate is set at 5% to keep it the same as it is now.

Agreed, some "factory planets" will re-pay themselves sooner, but on average, based on the experience from 2-3 characters, that 150-200K per month is the best figure I could arrive at - someone correct me if I am wrong.

That is a whole lot of months to recoup investment, assuming no one destroys your Customs Office before the 30-odd months are up!

I would suggest that CCP re-price the Customs Office, or re-do how taxation works, else it will make bad financial sense for 0.0 or wh corps to drop customs offices for all the planets in their space, or even some.
Vorpaladin
Diplomacy Has Failed
#488 - 2011-10-18 19:34:52 UTC
I am very much against this change. I have spent a lot of time learning how to do PI well and am quite happy producing tier 4 products in WH space. I run into plenty of random griefing when running sites, which is fine; me and my mates are happy to turn around and bait those folks into oblivion. It's nice to have an activity (PI) that involves less vulnerability for days when I'm just not in the mood, or when I'm on travel and have to use a crappy laptop that I would never use for going into combat.

PI in WH space is already risky. Stealth bombers love to sit at COs for the succulent flavor of a juicy hauler. Now you want to make it so in order to do PI my CORP has to buy AND defend about 10 POCOs. No way in hell I'm bothering with PI anymore unless the value of tier 4 commodities goes up 100X.

And if PI products (including POS fuel) go up even 10X there will be a collapse in the use of POSes. Which will have BAD ripple effects throughout the market.

PI can certainly be improved, but the POCO approach is not an improvement. This is the Qwikster of PI. Just say no!
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#489 - 2011-10-18 19:35:12 UTC
Brunaburh wrote:

First: cost. I'm hearing a probable cost of something like 80 million ISK to set up a customs office, assuming some market manipulation of the component costs and the LP/ISK conversion. Now I don't know about you, but it takes me a well designed setup in losec to come close to 80 million ISK in a month - and that doesn't include the costs for getting the intermediary materials created (Buy P1/P2 and process). The cost - profit ratio for something like Oxygen or Coolant is far too low for this to be a manageable methodology for production. Unless you change the depletion cycles in addition to the outputs, it's going to be very hard to cost-justify setting up a customs office where you need to export P1 or P2 products, and they are the largest, benefiting most from the command center capacity.


You are looking at it wrong. The profit of the CO won't come from the profit you make from your PI. It'll be from the tax everyone else pays to export. Even if you set it up for your own use, you will get that tax unless you close access to neutrals.

In lowsec, I'm fairly sure the local pirate corps will be setting up these at semi-reasonable tax rates. Passive income with no maintenance and a chance to create fights? Why wouldn't you do it?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Phoenix IV
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#490 - 2011-10-18 19:35:34 UTC
Mikron Alexarr wrote:

I respectfully disagree. I've lived in quite a few different areas of lowsec. The positives that you're talking about are the exception, not the rule. Many areas of low-sec are either abandoned or owned by people that would rather not be generous with any shared resources.

Too many people have this idea that low sec is the stepping stone to null sec, where alliances are formed and broken like in null. They think you can really get a foothold in low-sec if someone doesn't want you there. This is the wishful thinking of someone that has yet to experience all that low-sec has to offer.


I live in low-sec for more than 3 years, doing fw, piracy and industry. Smile
Hung TuLo
Running with Dogs
Northern Coalition.
#491 - 2011-10-18 19:38:16 UTC
Can I have all of my PI skills re-imburssed?

CCP you are trusting a premise that people in game will be kind hearted and that they will not tax a person so greatly as to have to leave the planet.


Apparently these is no greed in the game? You dont think that anyone not associated with your corp or alliance will not be charged a 100% tax on what you are trying to move off planet?

The purpose to have a poco will be control. No one in 0.0 or low will allow a neutral to do PI on a planet they will have control over. Isnt going to happen.

"In space all warriors are cold warriors" ---  General Chang  Star Trek VI
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#492 - 2011-10-18 19:38:39 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Brunaburh wrote:

First: cost. I'm hearing a probable cost of something like 80 million ISK to set up a customs office, assuming some market manipulation of the component costs and the LP/ISK conversion. Now I don't know about you, but it takes me a well designed setup in losec to come close to 80 million ISK in a month - and that doesn't include the costs for getting the intermediary materials created (Buy P1/P2 and process). The cost - profit ratio for something like Oxygen or Coolant is far too low for this to be a manageable methodology for production. Unless you change the depletion cycles in addition to the outputs, it's going to be very hard to cost-justify setting up a customs office where you need to export P1 or P2 products, and they are the largest, benefiting most from the command center capacity.


You are looking at it wrong. The profit of the CO won't come from the profit you make from your PI. It'll be from the tax everyone else pays to export. Even if you set it up for your own use, you will get that tax unless you close access to neutrals.

In lowsec, I'm fairly sure the local pirate corps will be setting up these at semi-reasonable tax rates. Passive income with no maintenance and a chance to create fights? Why wouldn't you do it?


Fights won't be created at that point - unless of course you mean ganking haulers in your faction fit recon is a fight. Being able to know when the people who do PI pick up their materials and drop off supplies is a death sentence to low-sec producers.
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#493 - 2011-10-18 19:40:32 UTC
Phoenix IV wrote:
Mikron Alexarr wrote:

I respectfully disagree. I've lived in quite a few different areas of lowsec. The positives that you're talking about are the exception, not the rule. Many areas of low-sec are either abandoned or owned by people that would rather not be generous with any shared resources.

Too many people have this idea that low sec is the stepping stone to null sec, where alliances are formed and broken like in null. They think you can really get a foothold in low-sec if someone doesn't want you there. This is the wishful thinking of someone that has yet to experience all that low-sec has to offer.


I live in low-sec for more than 3 years, doing fw, piracy and industry. Smile


Okay. Can you tell me with a straight face that I'm wrong in part or in whole?
The Offerer
Doomheim
#494 - 2011-10-18 19:41:16 UTC
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
Scarlett Ninja wrote:
...


I'd like to see more of the small PI producers in this thread like this guy.

Wish granted. In fact, I've just written a guide a couple of days ago for PI production in NPC nullcsec space and posted it on my (medium sized) corp's internal forums after testing the viability of the action myself with 3 characters. I guess that path for placing a foothold in nullsec is out of the question if these changes hit TQ.

Just to mention once again - we were forced out of 0.0 space because of the anomaly nerf and all the ISK, effort and demoralized members lost during the nerf process (demoralized not because the anomalies were removed, but because everything that we have built was gone over night based on a decision made by the lead economist that don't play the game and didn't have the data about the amount of bots and their impact on the economy). Since industrial side of 0.0 space is not mentioned anywhere except in that damage control thread after "Fearless" fiasco, that leaves us with close to 0 chance of getting back in nullsec permanently without paying someone else to play the game as they (not us) want it. That is seriously not fun even for a RL business, not to mention a game that is supposed to be entertaining.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#495 - 2011-10-18 19:46:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Smoking Blunts
Saira Jin wrote:
Don't know if someone has brought this up yet, but if you run the numbers from the past, you will notice that the average player paid 150,000 to 200,000 isk per MONTH per planet as export taxes in 0.0.

At that rate, a corp will need 300 months if there is just the one colony on the planet to recoup a 50 million isk investment for a customs office! Okay, so there are 10 colonies on a planet, it will still take 30 months!! This is assuming that the tax rate is set at 5% to keep it the same as it is now.

Agreed, some "factory planets" will re-pay themselves sooner, but on average, based on the experience from 2-3 characters, that 150-200K per month is the best figure I could arrive at - someone correct me if I am wrong.

That is a whole lot of months to recoup investment, assuming no one destroys your Customs Office before the 30-odd months are up!

I would suggest that CCP re-price the Customs Office, or re-do how taxation works, else it will make bad financial sense for 0.0 or wh corps to drop customs offices for all the planets in their space, or even some.


it might be a bit less than 30 months. 20-24 ish, but there is no way its worth it. tahts a crappy return of an investment considering it can be killed in a 36h or so window. no 2nd and 3rd timer right?

the more i think about this and the more i see many many reason this is a bad idea i do hope CCP PI DUDE is taking note. forget this plan redo pi itself as this is worthless with out a workible pi system, something that isnt currently inplace.

pls go watch what pi was ment to be on utube(fanfest video 09/10 ish) and make it that. then come back to this 'plan'

OMG when can i get a pic here
Bilaz
Duck and Finch
#496 - 2011-10-18 19:47:21 UTC
Let me remind you one of devblogs written not so long ago:

fom here http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2351
Quote:
Lessons learned
1) Shooting at stationary structures is boring
See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. Even the good fights that do happen around such objectives could be improved by having better objectives.
Shooting at things with hitpoints scales very efficiently with fleet size, which encourages lag-producing behavior
2) Having to spend significant amounts of effort defeating an enemy which isn't even fighting back is really boring
See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. See in particular how long it took to clear IT Alliance's ownership out of Delve, as a recent example
3) Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
4) Doing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later
See: Jump bridges, cyno jammers, Sov 4, AoE doomsdays, titans in general, supercarrier boost... Note that we should still obviously strive to make everything cool/neat/awesome, but when we start off with an awesome idea rather than an actual problem we want to fix or a feature that has a clear, functional and necessary goal, it generally requires painful fixes further down the road
5) Cost is a useful variable to tune but an unwise thing to rely on to enforce scarcity or balance - players will always be richer than you think
See: outposts, titans, supercarriers
6) Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
See: everything involving starbases. As a counterpoint though, things like the one-per-corp-per-system-per-day starbase rule demonstrate that if something doesn't make a big difference but is sufficiently awkward to do, then any theoretical "exploit" scenarios tend to fall out of favor quickly as they're just not worth the effort.
7) People like to do one-stop shopping, and will "go to Jita" for everything unless doing so is comparatively very inconvenient
See: moon mineral distribution, high-strength booster resource distribution, neither of which achieved much in the way of the nullsec-to-nullsec trade that they hoped to encourage


now to your new customs office
1) check. Its sure stationary and we kinda expected to shoot it
2) check. it surely wont fight back
3) check. Yeah - at night someone reinforced it and you HAVE to rep it up
4) check. We dont really need it, now do we?
5) check. It cost much more than most people get from pi and taxes are going up
6) check. We have to get bpc, build one thing, haul it, then do something with it again - with no reasoning behind it

so you repeat 6 out of 7 mistakes you folks supposedly learned? Good job as always.
Brunaburh
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#497 - 2011-10-18 19:48:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Brunaburh
replied to wrong author. Deleted....
pussnheels
Viziam
#498 - 2011-10-18 19:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: pussnheels
first thank you ccp omen for allowing us to give you feed back on this idea ? it looks already massive and i do hope you find is very useful to develop this concept even further

Actually i do like the concept tho i stay with my previous opinion that this as it stands now is too easy to grief all those who go into low sec for their pi . i thought it was ccp goal to get more people into low sec with this even lass people are likely to venture out there
Second there is no way to stop a large alliance to blockade every useful planet between their space and highsec..... barren; lave ;plasma and in lesser degrees ice and storm planets....... you know pos fuels

Yes you can avoid this by launching your cargo into space . but atleast enlarge the cargospace on the command centers it can now barely hold a day production for some items and not everyone has the time to empty their production planets twice a day

uumm maybe a system of being able to lease a CO for a certain time to a certain numbers of corporations will help just a idea

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
iNFoRMaLiTY11
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#499 - 2011-10-18 19:49:27 UTC
If it isnt too much, id like some questions answered.

In PI-s current form its rather clearly already divided to several character/player form of action as you cannot fit a full P4 production line into a single planet. Thus you are forced to spread the load between characters/planets/systems for high volume/profit production. For extraction the lower the security system the better the yield on planets. I.E. the gold is in the middle of maffia territory while coal is in police station.

1. Will there be new skills associated for this? A la planetary broker relation-esque?
2. Standings modifers on taxes for high security space?
3. Whats the intent of changes on progression with the new change? Id see solo -> small gang op - > big alliance. What is the motivator with these changes for a new small industrial corp moving to low/nullsec?
4. How is the small new corp going to be competitive with superalliances that can remove the small corp's PCO-s with less effort on corp level?
5. Do you think the current said out possible material cost is justifying the corporation level of passive income? As in do you find the initial cost of taxing up "your" planets comparable to standings grind for datacore farming on solo level in your view?
6. Do you feel a new passive income on corporation level is justified with moon mining already existing.
7. As a tax will be set up on corporation level what is the corporation effort in this on maintenance and upkeep? For sort of a comparison blueprint handling in poses requires pos fuel, palyers handling the blueprints and players efending the poses. There is clearly a set up + maintenance. What is the maintenance of these PCO-s? Defence only?
8. Import/export taxes clarification. High security space = 5% base price of item times 2 for high sec. Up to 5% base price with 100% PCO tax meanining 5% of items base price to import/export on planet in low/null, correct?
9. If i understood 8 incorrectly ignore next question. How is PI in high sec going to be incentive for new player to stick to the game when he has to pay double taxes in his most accessible planets + market fees + having to deal with lowest yield planets + corp tax if he is still in npc corp or taxed player run corp.

And 2 questions where i am very biased.

10. Any chance of lowering planetary construction costs for low/null security space to make it more accesible to newer player? With the reasoning of promoting a new player venture into more dangerous space with requiring less initial investment. The command center upgrade level costs are low enough for a more experienced character not to even care but setting up for example a level 3 command center can easily turn into value of cruiser (level 3 comm center + space port is almost 2 mil alone). Time that with number of planets.

11. Where the f*ck is planetary interaction voiced over tutorial for new players? When new player gets in he is told how to fit ships, fly them, how to start mining, accept missions, move around space and systems. Where the f*ck is the IN GAME planetary interaction tutorial for new players?
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#500 - 2011-10-18 19:49:51 UTC
Bilaz wrote:
Let me remind you one of devblogs written not so long ago:

fom here http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2351
Quote:
Lessons learned
1) Shooting at stationary structures is boring
See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. Even the good fights that do happen around such objectives could be improved by having better objectives.
Shooting at things with hitpoints scales very efficiently with fleet size, which encourages lag-producing behavior
2) Having to spend significant amounts of effort defeating an enemy which isn't even fighting back is really boring
See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. See in particular how long it took to clear IT Alliance's ownership out of Delve, as a recent example
3) Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring
See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
4) Doing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later
See: Jump bridges, cyno jammers, Sov 4, AoE doomsdays, titans in general, supercarrier boost... Note that we should still obviously strive to make everything cool/neat/awesome, but when we start off with an awesome idea rather than an actual problem we want to fix or a feature that has a clear, functional and necessary goal, it generally requires painful fixes further down the road
5) Cost is a useful variable to tune but an unwise thing to rely on to enforce scarcity or balance - players will always be richer than you think
See: outposts, titans, supercarriers
6) Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it
See: everything involving starbases. As a counterpoint though, things like the one-per-corp-per-system-per-day starbase rule demonstrate that if something doesn't make a big difference but is sufficiently awkward to do, then any theoretical "exploit" scenarios tend to fall out of favor quickly as they're just not worth the effort.
7) People like to do one-stop shopping, and will "go to Jita" for everything unless doing so is comparatively very inconvenient
See: moon mineral distribution, high-strength booster resource distribution, neither of which achieved much in the way of the nullsec-to-nullsec trade that they hoped to encourage


now to your new customs office
1) check. Its sure stationary and we kinda expected to shoot it
2) check. it surely wont fight back
3) check. Yeah - at night someone reinforced it and you HAVE to rep it up
4) check. We dont really need it, now do we?
5) check. It cost much more than most people get from pi and taxes are going up
6) check. We have to get bpc, build one thing, haul it, then do something with it again - with no reasoning behind it

so you repeat 6 out of 7 mistakes you folks supposedly learned? Good job as always.


agreed. 100%

/thread