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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

First post First post
Author
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1021 - 2012-10-17 17:35:24 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Wartargets are legal targets: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63443/1/logo2_actions2flags.png

And the answer to your question about what a killright is intended to be, it's clearly b).


This is correct
Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1022 - 2012-10-17 18:28:44 UTC
Of course this must be much trickier to implement, but I still think that the kill right could be an item. Claimable after you get illegally killed. It’s more immersive. Just like a body is created after a pod kill.

The underlying system should support “expirable items” so the item disappears after X days or the kill right fulfills.

Double click the item, activate the suspect flag if the target is visible by you, on your overview, not cloaked. The suspect flag stores the original item id.

That way the current item system could be used. No new underlying and exclusive storage for killrights.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#1023 - 2012-10-17 19:09:48 UTC
I think if you should really make the kill rights interesting, you could make it a 1 sided war dec that lasted for 2-3 weeks, where the owner could sell this kill right and kill The target as many times as he can during that time... with some adjustments ofc.

But I hope you get the idea, they would be much more valuable to sell to others then, instead of this single gank you currently plan to do

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#1024 - 2012-10-17 19:34:03 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Fleet option would be awesome, unfortunately there's some technical issues with that. Making it FFA obviously makes it more dangerous to have a kill right on you, which is quite a step up from having them more or less meaningless right now but whether it becomes too dangerous is up for discussion. Will some players have to adapt a little to continue playing their playstyle? Yes. Does it make it impossible for them? IMO, no. It is very, very important for several reasons that high-sec continues to be a potentially dangerous place and we definitely don't want to make it impossible for people to aggress on people there. But IMO making a FFA option for public kill rights, making them more meaningful, does not take us into that territory.

CCP SoniClover wrote:
Could you elaborate on this, please? We've run through several scenarios on how this will play out and so far as far as we can tell this will not result in horrible gameplay experience for anyone involved (one the whole, there will be exceptions of course).

Have you read anything I said prior to the last page? No seriously, have you? I went into significant detail to describe how your system will negatively affect gameplay.

Tell me, how is killing off what little is left of low-sec pvp, and how is pushing the slim remainder of criminal activity onto dedicated -10 gank alts, going to make the kill right system any more meaningful than it is today, or going to not result in horrible gameplay experience?

Are you really that ignorant to think that the people who still gank on their mains today because they possess at least a tiny shred of dignity that the people you're trying to protect lack entirely...Do you really think that those people won't outsource ganking to alts in its entirety? Or are you of the opinion that your system will somehow result in a greater amount of pvp against pilots who are already outlaws today?

Your statements regarding corporations and PUGs certainly make it sound as such, but I'm holding out a sliver of hope that you'll correct me on this.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1025 - 2012-10-17 19:39:11 UTC
mkint wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
mkint wrote:
@CCP (if you are still reading, which in your place, I probably wouldn't be) What metrics do you intend to use to determine if the new killrights are a success, and what specific numbers are you looking for? (For example number and isk value of killrights losses before and after the patch, or something?) What do you intend to do if your chosen metric fails to meet expectations? Or do you even have actual measurable goals to reach?


As kill rights are now created differently than before, it is of little value to compare before and after in that regard. For this reason, it's very likely that we'll see more kill rights generated post-Retribution. There are several metrics we'll be tracking, but we're not setting ourselves goals as to what has to happen for this to be a success. We'll track number of kill rights created, number of kill rights made public, average price of public kill rights and frequency of their activation, for instance.

As mentioned in the blog, the long-term goal is to allow people more control over who can buy their kill right, so once that option is in it will definitely alter the landscape considerably. Until then, yes, open kill rights are of more limited value because of how easily the target can rid himself of it, but it doesn't invalidate them completely. At the very least, the original victim can use the open kill right to get compensations from his attacker, which is a moral victory of sorts.

So, the intention is for public killrights to be 100% completely useless for this release (except as a blackmail tool, but that sounds pretty pathetic.) That clarifies it. It's pretty sad that the plan for this is to be a failure out of the box, with a "maybe someday we'll get around to fixing it." It's good to know, even if it is sad that you're content with releasing something broken, with no plan in place to fix it at all. No wonder you don't have any metrics to (i.e. before and after) to show if the system was a waste of time to develop.

It evokes images of Incarna in my brain.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1026 - 2012-10-17 19:45:09 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Fleet option would be awesome, unfortunately there's some technical issues with that. Making it FFA obviously makes it more dangerous to have a kill right on you, which is quite a step up from having them more or less meaningless right now but whether it becomes too dangerous is up for discussion. Will some players have to adapt a little to continue playing their playstyle? Yes. Does it make it impossible for them? IMO, no. It is very, very important for several reasons that high-sec continues to be a potentially dangerous place and we definitely don't want to make it impossible for people to aggress on people there. But IMO making a FFA option for public kill rights, making them more meaningful, does not take us into that territory.

CCP SoniClover wrote:
Could you elaborate on this, please? We've run through several scenarios on how this will play out and so far as far as we can tell this will not result in horrible gameplay experience for anyone involved (one the whole, there will be exceptions of course).

Have you read anything I said prior to the last page? No seriously, have you? I went into significant detail to describe how your system will negatively affect gameplay.

Tell me, how is killing off what little is left of low-sec pvp, and how is pushing the slim remainder of criminal activity onto dedicated -10 gank alts, going to make the kill right system any more meaningful than it is today, or going to not result in horrible gameplay experience?

Are you really that ignorant to think that the people who still gank on their mains today because they possess at least a tiny shred of dignity that the people you're trying to protect lack entirely...Do you really think that those people won't outsource ganking to alts in its entirety? Or are you of the opinion that your system will somehow result in a greater amount of pvp against pilots who are already outlaws today?

Your statements regarding corporations and PUGs certainly make it sound as such, but I'm holding out a sliver of hope that you'll correct me on this.

Transfering kill rights to corps is prejudiced against NPC corp members. Roll

Sure, they get wardec immunity for the life of their employment there, but they deserve the chance to hunt bounties with the elite pvp'ers in PUGs as much as the next WoW clone's customers do.

Nevermind that in Eve it's utterly stupid to get into a fleet with a stranger who isn't blue.

UTTERLY. STUPID.

Especially if CCP are legitimately talking about GANK PUGS lol. Roll

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#1027 - 2012-10-17 19:47:28 UTC
After what SoniClover said about bounty hunting pugs, I want to know when random neutrals will be able to shoot my war targets if we are fleeted.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Bodega Cat
BlackWatch Industrial Group
Reckless Contingency.
#1028 - 2012-10-17 19:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Fleet option would be awesome, unfortunately there's some technical issues with that. Making it FFA obviously makes it more dangerous to have a kill right on you, which is quite a step up from having them more or less meaningless right now but whether it becomes too dangerous is up for discussion. Will some players have to adapt a little to continue playing their playstyle? Yes. Does it make it impossible for them? IMO, no. It is very, very important for several reasons that high-sec continues to be a potentially dangerous place and we definitely don't want to make it impossible for people to aggress on people there. But IMO making a FFA option for public kill rights, making them more meaningful, does not take us into that territory.

CCP SoniClover wrote:
Could you elaborate on this, please? We've run through several scenarios on how this will play out and so far as far as we can tell this will not result in horrible gameplay experience for anyone involved (one the whole, there will be exceptions of course).

Have you read anything I said prior to the last page? No seriously, have you? I went into significant detail to describe how your system will negatively affect gameplay.

Tell me, how is killing off what little is left of low-sec pvp, and how is pushing the slim remainder of criminal activity onto dedicated -10 gank alts, going to make the kill right system any more meaningful than it is today, or going to not result in horrible gameplay experience?

Are you really that ignorant to think that the people who still gank on their mains today because they possess at least a tiny shred of dignity that the people you're trying to protect lack entirely...Do you really think that those people won't outsource ganking to alts in its entirety? Or are you of the opinion that your system will somehow result in a greater amount of pvp against pilots who are already outlaws today?

Your statements regarding corporations and PUGs certainly make it sound as such, but I'm holding out a sliver of hope that you'll correct me on this.


That is probably inevitable IMO. I think the way you are envisioning things is spot on, I just don't believe it could ever be any other way either.

Any sort of feature that is aligned to promote meaningful consequences on those doing egregious things, is going to slide the scale in that direction. No body wants the trouble. Ultimately, thats part of sandbox gaming though. Design intent can be whatever it wants, but how the playerbase boils it down is always something else, sometimes even unrecognizable.

Whatever CCP's opinions, or dispositions are do not matter. We will warp, and game things to something else regardless. Their main goal is to keep providing us with tools and shiny things to keep us busy until we break them, thats the thing that matters most to them.

I don't think anyone would dare suggest kill rights be account wide now would you? But that is seemingly the only way out of your box we've put things in.

The only way I could see gankers wanting to take ownership of their shenanigans and not alts otherwise would be to associate notoriety that they would want attached to their "main" so to speak. I guess those bragging boards is a long term goal in that direction, but again, i might just be dreaming that this makes a difference. I could just be thinking too idealistically.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1029 - 2012-10-17 19:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Bodega Cat wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Fleet option would be awesome, unfortunately there's some technical issues with that. Making it FFA obviously makes it more dangerous to have a kill right on you, which is quite a step up from having them more or less meaningless right now but whether it becomes too dangerous is up for discussion. Will some players have to adapt a little to continue playing their playstyle? Yes. Does it make it impossible for them? IMO, no. It is very, very important for several reasons that high-sec continues to be a potentially dangerous place and we definitely don't want to make it impossible for people to aggress on people there. But IMO making a FFA option for public kill rights, making them more meaningful, does not take us into that territory.

CCP SoniClover wrote:
Could you elaborate on this, please? We've run through several scenarios on how this will play out and so far as far as we can tell this will not result in horrible gameplay experience for anyone involved (one the whole, there will be exceptions of course).

Have you read anything I said prior to the last page? No seriously, have you? I went into significant detail to describe how your system will negatively affect gameplay.

Tell me, how is killing off what little is left of low-sec pvp, and how is pushing the slim remainder of criminal activity onto dedicated -10 gank alts, going to make the kill right system any more meaningful than it is today, or going to not result in horrible gameplay experience?

Are you really that ignorant to think that the people who still gank on their mains today because they possess at least a tiny shred of dignity that the people you're trying to protect lack entirely...Do you really think that those people won't outsource ganking to alts in its entirety? Or are you of the opinion that your system will somehow result in a greater amount of pvp against pilots who are already outlaws today?

Your statements regarding corporations and PUGs certainly make it sound as such, but I'm holding out a sliver of hope that you'll correct me on this.


That is probably inevitable IMO. I think the way you are envisioning things is spot on, I just don't believe it could ever be any other way either.

Any sort of feature that is aligned to promote meaningful consequences on those doing egregious things, is going to slide the scale in that direction. No body wants the trouble. Ultimately, thats part of sandbox gaming though. Design intent can be whatever it wants, but how the playerbase boils it down is always something else, sometimes even unrecognizable.

Whatever CCP's opinions, or dispositions are do not matter. We will warp, and game things to something else regardless. Their main goal is to keep providing us with tools and shiny things to keep us busy until we break them, thats the thing that matters most to them.

I don't think anyone would dare suggest kill rights be account wide now would you? But that is seemingly the only way out of your box we've put things in.

The only way I could see gankers wanting to take ownership of their shenanigans and not alts otherwise would be to associate notoriety that they would want attached to their "main" so to speak. I guess those bragging boards is a long term goal in that direction, but again, i might just be dreaming that this makes a difference. I could just be thinking too idealistically.

I +1'd the post above for mentioning "warping and gaming" this. Here's one reason why:

Join "Gank PUG" with friends or alts for numbers.

Engage killright dudes until there are no targets.

Then engage all non-blue NPC corp members in fleet to get some more targets.

The people who aren't in on it may take sides. That means there's a chance they'll take yours.

To be honest, this is more terrible than I had expected.

But evil enough to still make space dark I guess.

That is if CCP don't want anybody to actually use their new feature...Roll

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Shandir
Indigo Archive
#1030 - 2012-10-17 20:56:30 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:

@SoniClover - what are you doing to prevent a target's friends from buying up the killright and expending it on a cheap ship?
Do you consider this valid gameplay if it is not made impossible?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1031 - 2012-10-17 21:26:52 UTC
Shandir wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

@SoniClover - what are you doing to prevent a target's friends from buying up the killright and expending it on a cheap ship?
Do you consider this valid gameplay if it is not made impossible?



It's near impossible to do. It's not like you have to register your friends with CCP.


Only way to do something like this is:

Have a minimum ship value setting on the kill right.
Have ISK transfered for the kill right, only if some kills the person while it's active.
Have someone shed the suspect flag if they change ship (or stop the transfer.)


all messy as hell.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Bodega Cat
BlackWatch Industrial Group
Reckless Contingency.
#1032 - 2012-10-17 21:44:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
Shandir wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

@SoniClover - what are you doing to prevent a target's friends from buying up the killright and expending it on a cheap ship?
Do you consider this valid gameplay if it is not made impossible?


This is not the problem with the current system at all.

CCP doesn't have to do anything about this aspect.

Player logic will handle that.

Successful, and sensible players will price Kill rights at something that reasonably compensates the loss that generated the right from the get go (after insurance). If the pirate really doesn't want to have the rights anymore, then he can explore the option of paying the gankee back for the dmg he dealt, but if that price is too high, he can only hope for the next 30 days no one else will pay it either.

If you are not pricing your kill rights in this capacity, then you deserve to be exploited twice for being unreasonable.

Theirs a reason why revenge is often called "Pay back".

No body has a major problem when people use minerals to manufacture things at a loss because they subscribe to the idiot belief of "my minerals i mine are free", yet it continues to happen, and we only blame them, not the game for allowing it.

So if someone prices their kill rights LOL cheap then thats there bad.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#1033 - 2012-10-17 22:41:11 UTC
As I mentioned before, if the kill right is too expensive (or even just priced normally), then the perp wouldn't self-claim, but would instead fly something that's both shiny and enticing (weak, expensive) at the same time to make someone else purchase the kill right. At that point, he just self-claims without paying anything.

Like I mentioned before, all this system does is take the grief from the gank victim and give it to the person getting money-scammed.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Bodega Cat
BlackWatch Industrial Group
Reckless Contingency.
#1034 - 2012-10-17 22:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
As I mentioned before, if the kill right is too expensive (or even just priced normally), then the perp wouldn't self-claim, but would instead fly something that's both shiny and enticing (weak, expensive) at the same time to make someone else purchase the kill right. At that point, he just self-claims without paying anything.

Like I mentioned before, all this system does is take the grief from the gank victim and give it to the person getting money-scammed.


Yea we both understand each other. The difference between you and I is, I actually think theirs a game there to be played. People will be entertained by it to some extent specially when coupled up with a nice bounty. Their would be some competent pilots out there who could give the shiny a real run for it in the right kind of trap. Every now and then, people would get bested one way or the other, and life in EVE would go on.

I personally think the whole thing will break down before it even comes to that. People will just stop griefing almost entirely, or when doing it on an alt that is meaningless.

Theirs just too little to be gained by the average grief tactic anyway. The only reason why its popularity has remained apparent is because of the lack of any real consequences outside a ship going away due to concord, and a chance at a decent score on a rare whale.

You throw something particularly volatile at them, like a kill right that lasts 30 days and could be activated any time, and people will start to wonder if its worth it.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#1035 - 2012-10-17 23:10:20 UTC
It's not going to be any more worth it than it is today because outlaws can be shot anywhere, at any time. Like I said about 356,832 times already, the only people this change will affect are low-sec weekend warriors, and the half-dozen people still left out there who gank on their mains. I was one such person, and now I won't be anymore. Simple as that.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Ludi Burek
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#1036 - 2012-10-18 03:14:03 UTC
PUG hunting... RollUghCry

Do you think a missioner would be happy if his demsel mission was open to anyone to finish but those that want to hunt people will welcome random high sec cretins derping all over their marks? Ok then.

I have to put this in terms you can relate to (missioners and other carebears) as that stands some remote chance of being understood, it seems.
None ofthe Above
#1037 - 2012-10-18 04:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
I think one of the more disappointing things about this proposal is that I am really having a hard time seeing how someone can make a career out of Bounty Hunting under this system. It's almost there, but not quite.

Between not being able to restrict bounties or killrights, and the free for all use of kill rights which will often lead to people evading (well nullifying is probably a better term, exercising with alts) said killrights... it looks like bounty hunting will more be the occasional thing you do on a lark because some guy flew in front of you with a killright and a bounty flashing off his icon. A bonus for an alert PvPer but not a career.

That said I am excited to see the base of this system get an upgrade, just worried the unrefined state of it might derail it before it gets the reception it deserves.

EDIT, to make sure to phrase constructively:

Please consider supporting restricting bounties and killrights, and alternatives to the free for all killright "activation", in its INITIAL release. I think the changes would be better received and have a better chance of creating a bounty hunter profession within EVE if you make this extra effort.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
#1038 - 2012-10-18 08:59:55 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:


Once we add the option to limit who can buy (activate) the kill right, this will definitely include a corp option, i.e. I could set it so that a kill right I own could only be activated by a member of corp X.

Our long term vision is to improve the Most Wanted list to become more of an intelligence tool for bounty hunters to find potential targets. But that is a bit further out and it's uncertain at this stage when or if we get to that. So, kill right information will not be part of the winter release, but something similar could happen later on. In any case, it's unlikely that kill right purchases will be made through that interface, but could link to negotiating with the owner for exclusivity.


Thing is if I'm a bounty hunter and the top bounty list pay a higher percentage I'm guessing they will be the ones most worth killing. Say the top bounty offers 50% rather then the usual 20% (I made that figure up, but if you want to comment on the difference feel free Blink) as a bounty hunter I'm more likely to want to hunt the top one, as even suicide ganking them might be worth it if their ship is expensive enough.

On the other hand say the bottom of the list only gets you 25% of the ship cost BUT I can see they have a kill right for sale I might hunt THAT person instead. It only takes a moment of quick maths to figure out whether it's worth suicide ganking someone and losing your ship for more money or get less bounty but only pay for the kill right rather then the ship.

So the killrights when "bought" are they immediately activated? If so is there not a way to buy them and "save" them to activate (and you lose them if someone else buys, activates and kills the target)? If not I'd guess it would be a technical limitation, ut if it was possible I think it would add a lot of other possible scenarios.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1039 - 2012-10-18 09:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
So the killrights when "bought" are they immediately activated? If so is there not a way to buy them and "save" them to activate (and you lose them if someone else buys, activates and kills the target)? If not I'd guess it would be a technical limitation, ut if it was possible I think it would add a lot of other possible scenarios.

The current implementation, as presented, is that when you buy the killright, you automatically activate it so everyone can shoot that person for 15 minutes, because you've triggered the suspect flag on him.

I'm not sure who gets the bounty, the guy who kills him (which may very well not be you), or everyone who shoots at him. I'm also not sure who can loot his wreck afterwards without becoming a suspect themselves (and thus get shot themselves by the rest of the mob), or if it's a matter of "he was a suspect, if you fired at him, you can loot his ship". I assume it'll be a free for all looting session. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#1040 - 2012-10-18 09:31:23 UTC
Going by the information CCP released so far, the person delivering the killing blow will get the money. That is one of the worst aspects of this change. As a bounty hunter, I don't want random neutrals interfering in my kills. I'm sure I've mentioned that at least fourteen million times. Maybe even fifteen million.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted