EVE General Discussion

Well, I appreciate you taking the time to reply, and I can imagine some aspects of what you describe. But I'm still leery of the wisdom of Gargant asking for "a place to discuss our rules and the actions we take when those rules are broken" in an environment that still has the "don't post about specific moderator actions" rule alongside the "we aren't going to tell you the rules" mindset. Just what, exactly, are we supposed to say?

But, I will take it as an act of faith that neither you guys (CCP hf) nor the ISD volunteers are going to be jerks. How very un-Eve-like. Heh.

So, on to another example.

First, disclaimer: I have a sense of humor. I am not some dour, pasty, resentful, emo kid. That said, I don't think it is necessary for ISD volunteers to be funny (or attempt) in the middle of a thread without any other content or purpose. Cites:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2040528#post2040528
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2040535#post2040535

"You (ISD volunteer) want to make a funny?" Sure, no problem. Do it as a normal player character, not as your moderator character. But don't go being part of the problem making completely off-topic posts as a moderator.
(Note: I'm still in favor of little dabs of humor in the locking posts.)


White wine? While computing? How gauche. Real Brogrammers drink beer at the keyboard. Tell Gargant "Son, I am disappoint."

MDD

Suggesting that I have a problem with those two examples is rather overstating it. I'm using them as recent examples of cases where I believe the moderator persona has been abused. As far as I know there's no reason why those two ISD posts, or any others like them, couldn't have been made by normal player characters. The posts themselves aren't especially deserving of censure (as Gargant alluded: we should err on the side of under-moderating lest we nuke the forums).

The point which I failed to clearly state is that moderators should always remain mindful of the hat they wear. Perhaps there should be a policy that moderators ask themselves "is there a compelling reason that I should post this in the persona of a moderator?"

And BTW, this is exactly the knife's edge of the problem I was dancing around earlier: it's hard to discuss moderation in general without citing moderation specifics to support or refute one's claims.

MDD

PS: This is a case where ISD and CCP characters diverge. In the case of CCP characters, CCP hf. has publicly tied people to characters. Those people have less freedom than the people behind the ISD characters, as the latter always have the option of posting as a normal player character* whereas the former are somewhat constrained to that one "CCP blarg" character.

*Let's not consider the absurd case of a ISD volunteer having no active normal player characters...

PPS: In the exceedingly unlikely event that I become employeed by CCP hf., I hereby lay claim to "CCP Blarg".

Why, one might get the impression you were implying my missives were long-winded and prone to unproductive diversions.

Actually, I wasn't aware of that, but I'm glad to know now.

I think you and I disagree on that last point. The ISD volunteers have (AFAIK) normal player characters with which to engage in non-moderator activities. The CCP staff, which you mention that you are encouraged to emulate, have less freedom to use normal player characters. And I do agree that the "communicative, friendly, transparent, and funny" are all worthy goals provided they are achieved within the confines of moderator activities.

I have a difficult time arguing against this point. Being part of the community does seem to be a worthy goal. But the most visible activities (AFAIK) of the forum moderator portion* of the ISD seems to be the locking, editing, and moving of threads, which to me sounds entirely like custodianship and not liaison. And while the people behind the ISD characters may be perfectly enjoyable folks to be around, when they use the ISD character in the forums as custodians, there are some attributes they really must have (trustworthy, impartial, communicative, merciful), and some attributes which may be useful but are not critical (friendly, funny), and some which are counter-productive (flippant).

MDD

*I'm vaguely aware that ISD may do things such as in-game chats. I'm not addressing those other activities here.

On this specific post; we certainly do have normal player characters, but we're not permitted to be using them 'on the job' so to speak. It's important to maintain detachment in that regard so we can't be accused of favouritism. It's also why we're not allowed to moderate posts that belong to or involve our character/s. corporation or alliance.

I was first involved in ISD in 2005, and this is the way it's been for all that time.

If you've not seen it, we held a seminar this weekend - this is the transcript. I like to think it's interesting reading!

I think the spam and the trolling is a problem, yes... but I also think the ISD has done a pretty poor job of moderating the forums all around. They delete posts and lock threads that are sometimes just funny, or sometimes a genuinely good topic of conversation (albeit sometimes controversial).

---

Edit: Snipped - we're not discussing personal or individual issues here. Insults aren't very nice either
If you've got a personal complaint, the OP tells you what to do.

ISD Suvetar.

---

Edit: This ^

That wasn't a personal complaint specifically. The observation applies to you as well as the other ISDs, and it's definitely relevant to the conversation. No wonder people dislike the ISDs so much... you aren't moderating. You are taking things personally. You are trying to control the conversation. You (ISD) remove legitimate posts. Funny posts. You (ISD) often do this randomly based on personal preference and NOT on any actual guidelines. I want you (ISD) to do the job... but the manner in which you do it is biased and just makes the forums dry and tedious. I think using volunteers for it is a failure. The ISD is just too unprofessional.

~Gogela

I think it's important that our forums have a place where we can talk about anything, even if it includes a little trolling
You should be able to go on the forums and have fun, read something funny and content less... I mean who decides what is content on a general discussion forum..."general"

Making eachother mad in eve is also healty for a game that is all about conflict and community,

You should make a forum section with less forum moderation where people are actually allowed to have fun, provoke each other and such, as long as there is no* racism and such

ISD Eshtir, Suvetar, CCP Gargant, Guard: You'll forgive me for jumping in here to respond to a post clearly directed at one or all of you, but I can't resist gimmes!


Simple answer: the forum owners. In this case, that's CCP hf., an Icelandic corporation. More elaborately, CCP hf., through her officers, has delegated that authority to the CCP Community team, and from them to the ISD moderators.


I find that claim unsupported and suspect on its face. Can you provide a more detailed, reasoned, post support it?

MDD

I base my opinion on the fact that eve is marketed as a cruel and unforgiving game, "or something like that"... but on the forums we are only allowed to be carebears, not provoke each other and such

Conflict is a content generator in eve, it gives a reason to shoot someone, because they annoy you, if there is something they should moderate it should be alt posting....

The meta game isn't supposed to be played against those that maintain the general health of the community. There really isn't a reason for it.

Then they should go about it in a more proper business like nature and try to form their opinions from facts and real examples for their dislike and belief they are ineffective rather than just dressing up their distaste for moderation as orwellian/reich like a alliance political game.