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Crime & Punishment

 
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The reality of the goon freighter ganking in Uedema and neighboring systems.

First post
Author
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#401 - 2012-09-20 20:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
go run some more numbers in spreadsheets and keep adjusting it a bit to arrive at your preconceived conclusion that ganking is absolutely free of risk when the reward aspect is absolutely unpredictable

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#402 - 2012-09-20 20:40:30 UTC
Andski wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Yes.

I didn't say it was risk elimination (this is for Tippia as well), it's mitigation. Control if you will.

It's analogous to going to Vegas knowing exactly how much you'll spend. You've decided to spend X, but if you hit the jackpot you'll spend less and may make money.

It's all upside. There's no occasion where you can lose more than you intend.


hey sup I have a discovery that will enlighten the **** out of you

there is literally no situation in eve where you can lose more than you intend

*exhales* wisdom


Your wisdom smells funny, kinda like yesterday's lunch. I think most people would use another word for your exhalation.

Likewise, either you're using a truly unique definition of "intend", or you're discounting initiative. You can't lose more than you risk, but it's trivially obvious that it's possible to risk without the intent to lose.

A suicide ganker loses the ship on purpose, it's integral to the process. That's intent. A sane target has no such intent to participate in the gank and significantly less control.

And before the half-brights start squealing that I'm saying this needs to change: I'm not.
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#403 - 2012-09-20 20:41:45 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
Possible counters:
1) Kill the bumper
2) Scout before you enter a system
3) Log off before you get aggressed. IIRC, PVP does not extend your log off timer if you log off before getting aggressed.
4) Triple web your freighter with an alt so that it insta warps.
5) Fully insure your ship and don't haul cargo more valuable than the ships required to gank it.
6) Failing all of the above, contract out to a courier service who is more competent than you, such as Red Frog Freight.


1) Kill the bumper is a ridiculous counter... To stop from being ganked I have to sacrifice MY ship and security status to concord. All you're doing is pushing costs onto the wrong people

2) is fine although an imperfect solution
3) doesn't work... They're going to shoot you down in somewhere between 20-30 seconds. Logoff keeps you in space for what? 1 minute? I can't remember the timer but it's definitely more than 20-30 seconds
4) As I already discussed, this is (apparently) a very good solution. But man does it require a level of knowledge about undocumented game play elements that's bordering on the insane
5) Best solution (though doesn't prevent random grief ganking but that's okay by me)
6) Also a great solution

So you've got 2 decent semi-solutions (which honestly should stop 99% of the problem) and the red frog workaround (not so much a solution but a perfectly valid workaround).
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#404 - 2012-09-20 20:41:48 UTC
Andski wrote:
go run some more numbers in spreadsheets and keep adjusting it a bit to arrive at your preconceived conclusion that ganking is absolutely free of risk ...


Stop humping the strawman. It's embarrassing.
Robert De'Arneth
#405 - 2012-09-20 20:43:29 UTC
I really think the bottom line on this is this!! Anyone who can fly a billion + ISK ships is not new to the game, and they should know where the gank spots are, it is real easy to look, takes far less time then it does to buy a new ship with billions of freight.

I'm a nerd, you can check my stats!! Skilling Int/Mem at 45 sp per minute is how I mack!     I'm like a lapdog, all bark no bite. 

Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#406 - 2012-09-20 20:45:48 UTC
Robert De'Arneth wrote:
I really think the bottom line on this is this!! Anyone who can fly a billion + ISK ships is not new to the game, and they should know where the gank spots are, it is real easy to look, takes far less time then it does to buy a new ship with billions of freight.


agreed...

If you plexed your way to a freighter pilot and then lose it, I have no sympathy. If you were auto-piloting and you lose it, I have no sympathy.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#407 - 2012-09-20 20:48:43 UTC
Robert De'Arneth wrote:
I really think the bottom line on this is this!! Anyone who can fly a billion + ISK ships is not new to the game, and they should know where the gank spots are, it is real easy to look, takes far less time then it does to buy a new ship with billions of freight.

Like "newbies" mining in hulks in the starter systems, eh ~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Robert De'Arneth
#408 - 2012-09-20 20:50:53 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Robert De'Arneth wrote:
I really think the bottom line on this is this!! Anyone who can fly a billion + ISK ships is not new to the game, and they should know where the gank spots are, it is real easy to look, takes far less time then it does to buy a new ship with billions of freight.

Like "newbies" mining in hulks in the starter systems, eh ~



True, it is not the gankers fault they did not read the rules and the dangers of flying!! Big smile

I'm a nerd, you can check my stats!! Skilling Int/Mem at 45 sp per minute is how I mack!     I'm like a lapdog, all bark no bite. 

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#409 - 2012-09-20 20:54:13 UTC
the root of the problem is that so many of you seem to think that freighters are the only way to move multibillion ISK loads of cargo

the fact is that the Orca can haul high-value loads very easily and there are ways of concealing your cargo when flying a freighter, i.e. double-wrapping, and the only gank gangs that will bother with gambling on a double-wrapped haul are the ones who can afford to lose ~1b in ships on a crapthrow like that

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Taedrin
Virtues Corporation
#410 - 2012-09-20 20:54:47 UTC
Seminole Sun wrote:
Taedrin wrote:
Possible counters:
1) Kill the bumper
2) Scout before you enter a system
3) Log off before you get aggressed. IIRC, PVP does not extend your log off timer if you log off before getting aggressed.
4) Triple web your freighter with an alt so that it insta warps.
5) Fully insure your ship and don't haul cargo more valuable than the ships required to gank it.
6) Failing all of the above, contract out to a courier service who is more competent than you, such as Red Frog Freight.


1) Kill the bumper is a ridiculous counter... To stop from being ganked I have to sacrifice MY ship and security status to concord. All you're doing is pushing costs onto the wrong people

2) is fine although an imperfect solution
3) doesn't work... They're going to shoot you down in somewhere between 20-30 seconds. Logoff keeps you in space for what? 1 minute? I can't remember the timer but it's definitely more than 20-30 seconds
4) As I already discussed, this is (apparently) a very good solution. But man does it require a level of knowledge about undocumented game play elements that's bordering on the insane
5) Best solution (though doesn't prevent random grief ganking but that's okay by me)
6) Also a great solution

So you've got 2 decent semi-solutions (which honestly should stop 99% of the problem) and the red frog workaround (not so much a solution but a perfectly valid workaround).


1) But still a counter none-the-less. Some people might prefer to protect themselves in such a manner. You don't HAVE to kill the bumper.
2) Granted
3) The OP isn't talking about alpha strike suicide ganks. He is talking about suicide ganks where the bumper keeps the freighter pinned down while a stream of suicide gankers are logged in/logged out. I would imagine that this takes longer than a minute.
4) Granted
5) Granted
6) Granted
Vojk
Aideron Robotics
#411 - 2012-09-20 20:55:15 UTC
Malphilos wrote:


Your wisdom smells funny, kinda like yesterday's lunch.



Personally I find that a well made Lamb Vindaloo tastes, and smells much better 24 hours after purchase. Not so 24 hours after consuming, however.
Phoenix Bibbs
Fweddit
Free Range Chikuns
#412 - 2012-09-20 20:59:00 UTC
Ludi Burek wrote:
Hello there, intellectually challenged freighter pilots.

Look the the list of freighters killed in uedama posted above. Do you notice any freighters from Push Industries or Red Frog. No? Look into what they do. Hint: they limit their cargo value. Copy them or use them.

Also, stop being daft.


Ummm, actually there are no Red Frog pilots on there because all of our freighter pilots are out of corp. We do however limit our cargo value which has kept me from getting ganked so far.

If you see a Red Frog pilot on there chances are they're in a rookie ship.
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#413 - 2012-09-20 21:00:55 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
Seminole Sun wrote:
Taedrin wrote:



1) But still a counter none-the-less. Some people might prefer to protect themselves in such a manner. You don't HAVE to kill the bumper.


I suppose... but if you're going to include Counters like that then, "Take a shuttle to Jita and engage in station trading without ever leaving" is also a valid "counter". The fact that we're even talking about "killing the bumper" is proof to me that there's something wrong with that particular mechanic.

[quote=Taedrin]
3) The OP isn't talking about alpha strike suicide ganks. He is talking about suicide ganks where the bumper keeps the freighter pinned down while a stream of suicide gankers are logged in/logged out. I would imagine that this takes longer than a minute.
/quote]

I was confused by this as well and didn't understand it. The OP was a bit of flamebait / trolling so I was kind of leaving it behind. But why would you conduct a gank session that way? The only logical "phased" combat approach would be to have alpha fleet one fire it's two volleys that are calculated to kill an unboosted, un repped freighter. If that doesn't work, beta fleet fires it's two volleys to finish off the target. So MAYBE you're talking about a 40 second engagement with some bumping needed?
Samahiel Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#414 - 2012-09-20 21:11:41 UTC
Seminole Sun's analysis actually holds up pretty well. I think this is a semantic argument among people who agree with each other but tend to be defensive due to past experience of arguing with idiots. I.e. cool your jets folks.
Samahiel Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#415 - 2012-09-20 21:16:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Samahiel Sotken
Seminole Sun wrote:
I was confused by this as well and didn't understand it. The OP was a bit of flamebait / trolling so I was kind of leaving it behind. But why would you conduct a gank session that way? The only logical "phased" combat approach would be to have alpha fleet one fire it's two volleys that are calculated to kill an unboosted, un repped freighter. If that doesn't work, beta fleet fires it's two volleys to finish off the target. So MAYBE you're talking about a 40 second engagement with some bumping needed?


The only phased attacks I have ever seen are on either side of a gate when the first wave fails to kill the freighter by a small margin. Furthermore, though alpha is used occasionally among the rare suicide gank in high true sec systems, pirates drive by a profit motive almost always use DPS in a prestaged 0.5-0.6 system since the required number of ships is much lower.

It's much like the lone gunman argument in security. Alpha like a determined lone gunman is nigh unpreventable. Fortunately lone gunmen and alpha suicides are rare. All legitimate strategy discussions revolve around high DPS.
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#416 - 2012-09-20 21:22:36 UTC
Samahiel Sotken wrote:
Seminole Sun wrote:
I was confused by this as well and didn't understand it. The OP was a bit of flamebait / trolling so I was kind of leaving it behind. But why would you conduct a gank session that way? The only logical "phased" combat approach would be to have alpha fleet one fire it's two volleys that are calculated to kill an unboosted, un repped freighter. If that doesn't work, beta fleet fires it's two volleys to finish off the target. So MAYBE you're talking about a 40 second engagement with some bumping needed?


The only phased attacks I have ever seen are on either side of a gate when the first wave fails to kill the freighter by a small margin. Furthermore, though alpha is used occasionally among the rare suicide gank in high true sec systems, pirates drive by a profit motive almost always use DPS in a prestaged 0.5-0.6 system since the required number of ships is much lower.

It's much like the lone gunman argument in security. Alpha like a determined lone gunman is nigh unpreventable. Fortunately lone gunmen and alpha suicides are rare. All legitimate strategy discussions revolve around high DPS.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding the mechanics of a concord response (having never been stupid enough to carry enough in my ship to create the opportunity). I was under the impression that about 20 seconds (in 0.5) after the initial volley, concord comes and insta-gibs you. It doesn't matter if you had one ship or 200 ships, they're all going to die ~20 seconds after they first aggress. Most battlecruisers will get off two volleys in that time right? Destroyers (which don't get used anymore for this purpose as I understand) get off three. While it may be playing semantics, I'd consider two shots in 10-12 seconds to be "essentially" an alpha strike. There's almost nothing that a freighter can do in that 10-12 seconds and very little shield regen is going to happen.

I guess my point is that they wouldn't be shooting at the freighter over a matter of minutes with a bumper CONSTANTLY bumping the freighter. They might need ONE bump and then 15-20 seconds of shooting.

If I'm misunderstanding something, let me know. As I said, this is a knowledge gap I'm trying to correct.
Samahiel Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#417 - 2012-09-20 21:33:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Samahiel Sotken
Seminole Sun wrote:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the mechanics of a concord response (having never been stupid enough to carry enough in my ship to create the opportunity). I was under the impression that about 20 seconds (in 0.5) after the initial volley, concord comes and insta-gibs you. It doesn't matter if you had one ship or 200 ships, they're all going to die ~20 seconds after they first aggress. Most battlecruisers will get off two volleys in that time right? Destroyers (which don't get used anymore for this purpose as I understand) get off three. While it may be playing semantics, I'd consider two shots in 10-12 seconds to be "essentially" an alpha strike. There's almost nothing that a freighter can do in that 10-12 seconds and very little shield regen is going to happen.

I guess my point is that they wouldn't be shooting at the freighter over a matter of minutes with a bumper CONSTANTLY bumping the freighter. They might need ONE bump and then 15-20 seconds of shooting.

If I'm misunderstanding something, let me know. As I said, this is a knowledge gap I'm trying to correct.


A Neutron Blaster Cannon II with all gunnery skills at IV gets off I think 3-4 volleys before concord shows up, at which point they neut and ECM you. You are smart and have fitted and overheated ECCM so you have a couple more volleys, meanwhile your Hobgoblin IIs are ignored and continue to fire away merrily. It's more complicated then that, also gate guns, but it gets the point across. Either way you need significantly less ships if you use high DPS high ROF blasters than if you use high alpha artillery.

Note: concord is not an instant death, it's inevitable death. You will be hit with an infinite point, a heavy neut, and a lot of webs. The DPS is high, but not instantaneous.
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#418 - 2012-09-20 21:39:50 UTC
Samahiel Sotken wrote:
Seminole Sun wrote:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the mechanics of a concord response (having never been stupid enough to carry enough in my ship to create the opportunity). I was under the impression that about 20 seconds (in 0.5) after the initial volley, concord comes and insta-gibs you. It doesn't matter if you had one ship or 200 ships, they're all going to die ~20 seconds after they first aggress. Most battlecruisers will get off two volleys in that time right? Destroyers (which don't get used anymore for this purpose as I understand) get off three. While it may be playing semantics, I'd consider two shots in 10-12 seconds to be "essentially" an alpha strike. There's almost nothing that a freighter can do in that 10-12 seconds and very little shield regen is going to happen.

I guess my point is that they wouldn't be shooting at the freighter over a matter of minutes with a bumper CONSTANTLY bumping the freighter. They might need ONE bump and then 15-20 seconds of shooting.

If I'm misunderstanding something, let me know. As I said, this is a knowledge gap I'm trying to correct.


A Neutron Blaster Cannon II with all gunnery skills at IV gets off I think 3-4 volleys before concord shows up, at which point they neut and ECM you. You are smart and have fitted and overheated ECCM so you have a couple more volleys, meanwhile your Hobgoblin IIs are ignored and continue to fire away merrily. It's more complicated then that, also gate guns, but it gets the point across. Either way you need significantly less ships if you use high DPS high ROF blasters than if you use high alpha artillery.


Thanks... That's a much more nuanced result then my previous mental image of "magic NPC ships go up and you find yourself in a shiny new pod" ;)

NOW I understand the roll of bumping to keep the freighter locked down for closer to a minute. Interesting.
Samahiel Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#419 - 2012-09-20 21:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Samahiel Sotken
Seminole Sun wrote:

Thanks... That's a much more nuanced result then my previous mental image of "magic NPC ships go up and you find yourself in a shiny new pod" ;)

NOW I understand the roll of bumping to keep the freighter locked down for closer to a minute. Interesting.


No problem, here to help. Also, since the profit margin is often so thin and the pirate is dependent on all the ships deliver as much DPS as possible it makes counter strategies like blackbirds or logis viable. Nothing ruins a pirates day than a freighter jumping out at 5% structure because some ******* good Samaritan. Except for maybe getting the wreck blown up before you can scoop it.

Note to self: Open alt corp offering safe escort through Uedama.
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#420 - 2012-09-20 22:01:05 UTC
Samahiel Sotken wrote:
Seminole Sun wrote:

Thanks... That's a much more nuanced result then my previous mental image of "magic NPC ships go up and you find yourself in a shiny new pod" ;)

NOW I understand the roll of bumping to keep the freighter locked down for closer to a minute. Interesting.


No problem, here to help. Also, since the profit margin is often so thin and the pirate is dependent on all the ships deliver as much DPS as possible it makes counter strategies like blackbirds or logis viable. Nothing ruins a pirates day than a freighter jumping out at 5% structure because some ******* good Samaritan. Except for maybe getting the wreck blown up before you can scoop it.

Note to self: Open alt corp offering safe escort through Uedama.


Seems like a T3 booster shadowing the freighter would be a powerful counter as well. Or do most pirates bake that in for cushion?