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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

First post First post
Author
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#381 - 2012-09-12 06:50:24 UTC
Kintaana wrote:
So the kestrel gets a range bonus yet is slower and less agile than the Breacher, which also gets a range bonus + a tank bonus + higher mobility?
How does that make sense? Light missiles with 40km range isn't going to give it more survivability or any sort of advantage over short range frigates that can easily overcome it and out-tank it.

Once again this would make minmatar unbalanced while shoehorning caldari into a non-pvp role.
It would be more balanced if the Breacher was slower due to the beefy tank or if the Kestrel had 3 low slots and the Breacher had 2, allowing the Kestrel to fit a nano to compensate for it's lack of mobility and be in harmony with it's bonuses.


I miss the part where breacher gets a range bonus and you miss the part where kestrel gets 4 launcher slots. It is not as unbalanced as you make it out to be.

I think I'll be using both ships. The range bonus on kestrel allows some niche setups that will be very useful in FW.
Mike Flynn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#382 - 2012-09-12 16:34:58 UTC
Ummmm.... The t1 frigs progress to t1 cruisers. Not stealth bombers. Jus sayin
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#383 - 2012-09-12 19:27:22 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
So if I get this right, there is not going to be a single missile platform among the Tech I Ammar ships anymore?

Sad


That's what it looks like. All other races got 2 attack frigates with different weapon systems. Amarr got TWO frikken laser frigates. Although I enjoy the tormentor (mostly because the punisher sux solo with only 2 mids) it would have been nice to have a T1 missile frig or drone boat to branch off of.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#384 - 2012-09-12 19:34:47 UTC
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:
Quote:
So the kestrel gets a range bonus yet is slower and less agile than the Breacher, which also gets a range bonus + a tank bonus + higher mobility?
How does that make sense? Light missiles with 40km range isn't going to give it more survivability or any sort of advantage over short range frigates that can easily overcome it and out-tank it.

Once again this would make minmatar unbalanced while shoehorning caldari into a non-pvp role.
It would be more balanced if the Breacher was slower due to the beefy tank or if the Kestrel had 3 low slots and the Breacher had 2, allowing the Kestrel to fit a nano to compensate for it's lack of mobility and be in harmony with it's bonuses.


You are completely right.
But don´t forget: Who gets a completely new stabber and vagabond model? Who got a stealth uber buff with asb? Who has the best Tech1 destroyer, cruiser, battlecruiser and with asb now also battleship in the game? Who had the monopol on the best tech1 frig in the game for years (Rifter)? Who has the most overpowered pirate frigs like dram?
Winmatar.
It is always the same. Probably minnies were winning about the fact that they hadnt the only one T1 frig in the game, CCP feared about our spoiled minnie players and now they get this breacher stuff. I had to laugh in the last dev blog that not only the other cruisers but also rupture should get a buff. ROFL. The best Tech1 cruiser in game gets a buff. Wow.

Well you are completely right: Kestrel looks like a complete loser against the Breacher. Let us not talk about the Tormentor... That is a total epic fail. But look only at the dram: CCP wants it so. Minnies always had the best ships (lets not talk about their weapons) and it will be so forever until the whole universe is flying minnie ship only. If I were you I would start training for minmatar frigate. CCP WANTS this frigate to be overpowered.
So: working as intended


please whine more. cause you haven't enough already...
Aaron Greil
Heresy Incorporated
Solitude Coalition
#385 - 2012-09-13 22:33:11 UTC
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but will the ishkur hull be moved from the incursus to the tristan? It would be pretty sweet to have a tristan hull as an AF.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#386 - 2012-09-14 00:10:15 UTC
So when someone uses a Tristan and they want to upgrade to the next drone boat, instead of going to the T2 variation of the ship they already use, they have to search up a new hull based off an Incursus and train for the Ishkur? Either the Incursus should be the T1 drone boat, or the Tech 2 version of the Tristan should be a drone combat ship. The Tristan as a drone boat doesn't make any sense at all really, cause now the Nemesis is kind of left in the cold, disrespected, and the T2 frigate drone boat is a completely different hull from the T1, CCP you must order some more common sense and dumb it into this game
Martin0
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#387 - 2012-09-14 06:43:25 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
So when someone uses a Tristan and they want to upgrade to the next drone boat, instead of going to the T2 variation of the ship they already use, they have to search up a new hull based off an Incursus and train for the Ishkur? Either the Incursus should be the T1 drone boat, or the Tech 2 version of the Tristan should be a drone combat ship. The Tristan as a drone boat doesn't make any sense at all really, cause now the Nemesis is kind of left in the cold, disrespected, and the T2 frigate drone boat is a completely different hull from the T1, CCP you must order some more common sense and dumb it into this game


Dude you are really so pissed because the ishkur have the incursus hull?
Be happy that we will have a t1 Droneboat Frig.
We will have also a Drone destroyer SoonTM, i think new players after the tristan will upgrade to said destroyer not to a 30million isk ship.
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#388 - 2012-09-14 14:49:39 UTC
Well. CCPs argument for shooting away dmg bonus for kinetic on the Kestrel: It can choose dmg types then and does all dmg types same good.
Super.
With this argumentation: Minmatar can also use all damage types with the same effiency. Shouldn´t CCP then decrease dmg on Minmatar ships?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Belsina
Noob Hole Project
#389 - 2012-09-15 17:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Belsina
NO NO and again NO

i will NOT support that dicision

i am willing to support the idea where the --> Kestrel, Iquisitor, Breacher and my favorite hull-design the Tristan <--

are rocket-/light missile platforms

obviously because they are the tech 1 variations of the Covertt-Ops-Bombers



and seriously ... what is a drone tracking bonus for when u use small drones???



and as simple as that: DO NOT MAKE THEM INTO SOME OTHER STRANGE STUFF
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
United Interests
#390 - 2012-09-15 21:42:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Why aren't we making a Gallente tech one missile frigate?:
Some of you have expressed concerns about our change of plans that will leave Gallente and Amarr without tech one missile frigates. It's true that both races have missile ships later in their tech two lines (Bombers, Khanid, Roden (kinda)) but they do not have any other tech one missile ships. We decided that the benefits of providing a missile frigate when the race does not use missiles at the tech one level was minor at best. Tech two and faction ships often require significantly more training to be effectively used, and each individual size of missiles are actually quite fast to train into. Getting new Gallente players to train rocket and light missile skills would mean that only the missile support skills would be of any use until they cross trained to another race. Giving a real droneboat option at the T1 frigate level and creating new gameplay with the Navitas were both higher priorities.
To a large extent bombers are a special snowflake when it comes to training, we have no plans to change the weapon systems that bombers use.


The Celestis cruiser has 2 missle launcher hardpoints.

Nerfing Hisec has never fixed Losec or Nullsec

Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#391 - 2012-09-15 23:21:16 UTC
Martin0 wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
So when someone uses a Tristan and they want to upgrade to the next drone boat, instead of going to the T2 variation of the ship they already use, they have to search up a new hull based off an Incursus and train for the Ishkur? Either the Incursus should be the T1 drone boat, or the Tech 2 version of the Tristan should be a drone combat ship. The Tristan as a drone boat doesn't make any sense at all really, cause now the Nemesis is kind of left in the cold, disrespected, and the T2 frigate drone boat is a completely different hull from the T1, CCP you must order some more common sense and dumb it into this game


Dude you are really so pissed because the ishkur have the incursus hull?
Be happy that we will have a t1 Droneboat Frig.
We will have also a Drone destroyer SoonTM, i think new players after the tristan will upgrade to said destroyer not to a 30million isk ship.

Are you ********? It doesn't make sense, so simply put, they should fix it. It does not make ANY SENSE AT ALL. WHY THE HECK ARE YOU THINKING THIS IS A GOOD THING?

I like the drone boat thing and love the look of the new Tristan... it's just too bad it doesn't make one ******* shred of sense for the Tristan to be the Tech 1 drone boat frigate, while an Incursus hull gets to be the Tech 2 version. This is common sense that a five year old possesses, it's called a pattern, and the way they're proposing this stuff right now, that pattern is GARBAGE.

That is unless they are planning some major changes with the Gallente Assault Ships.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#392 - 2012-09-16 01:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare wrote:
The Celestis cruiser has 2 missle launcher hardpoints.

And they are fail too. Nobody uses them. Just say "No" to Jacques Roden and his split hybrid-missile loving fetish!
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#393 - 2012-09-16 18:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Aglais
Somehow, I highly doubt that the Ishkur will remain a T2 Incursus hull long after this change. It makes sense to me that there'd be a T2 combat frigate hull based on each of the T1 ones, so really the only choice there is to keep the Enyo as an Incursus hull (which is probably going to be tweaked again in future to be made more in line with what the Incursus does if it doesn't already do that; I don't fly Gallente very much right now though that will likely change) and then turn the Ishkur into a T2 Tristan. At least, it makes sense to me that this'd happen for the Caldari and Gallente ships. Right now Amarr have a T2 frigate that doesn't correspond to any T1 counterpart and as such I'd probably cringe a little if the Vengeance became a Tormentor variant, and both of the Minmatar AFs are based on what the Rifter and Rifter alone does, leaving no space for a T2 Breacher hull save for the stealth bomber.

Still I can't help but feel that the Tristan wouldn't quite be on par with the Incursus in some ways, primarily it's low seeming power grid. It's fitting options also feel to me like they're going to be more limited in terms of defense due to it's lower quantity of low slots, when both the Merlin and Kestrel get mids. I suppose I'll find out on wednesday on Duality.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#394 - 2012-09-17 13:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Belsina wrote:
NO NO and again NO
i will NOT support that dicision
i am willing to support the idea where the --> Kestrel, Iquisitor, Breacher and my favorite hull-design the Tristan <--
are rocket-/light missile platforms
obviously because they are the tech 1 variations of the Covertt-Ops-Bombers
and seriously ... what is a drone tracking bonus for when u use small drones???
and as simple as that: DO NOT MAKE THEM INTO SOME OTHER STRANGE STUFF

Ares Desideratus wrote:

Are you ********? It doesn't make sense, so simply put, they should fix it. It does not make ANY SENSE AT ALL. WHY THE HECK ARE YOU THINKING THIS IS A GOOD THING?

I like the drone boat thing and love the look of the new Tristan... it's just too bad it doesn't make one ******* shred of sense for the Tristan to be the Tech 1 drone boat frigate, while an Incursus hull gets to be the Tech 2 version. This is common sense that a five year old possesses, it's called a pattern, and the way they're proposing this stuff right now, that pattern is GARBAGE.

That is unless they are planning some major changes with the Gallente Assault Ships.


Well you see there's a funny story about all this.

Back in YC 105 when CreoDron was beginning the design process for their new Ishkur-class Assault Ship, they naturally looked first to the (retroactively) drone-centric Tristan as a base hull. The project lead Masalle Ambrette acquired a large number of Tristan hulls for prototyping and set her team to work.
However two major technical challenges quickly arose. Roni Darieux himself had given them their design targets, and he was adamant that the new ship had to be the pinnacle of drone carrier technology. The Ishkur must be able to field a 50m3 dronebay as well as top of the line armor plating for a Frigate.
These goals proved difficult to meet using the Tristan as a base hull. Although it had the largest dronebay of any existing Frigate at the time the Tristan's hull layout did not allow for easy expansion of the already significant bay. In particular, the port side bulkhead quickly lost structural integrity when the internal supports were scaled back in order to expand the bay. Attempts to meet the armor plating requirements also ran into difficulties as the Tristan thruster systems struggled to keep up under the heavier load. The classic thruster pod design of the Tristan hull did not provide easy expansion room to upgrade the thrusters either.
After numerous failures in the prototyping process the CreoDron team decided to change course and build the Ishkur using a completely different hull. They eventually settled on the Incursus hull as the next logical choice. Although the Incursus did not have the same base dronebay that the Tristan offered, it was more easily modified and the conversion from the Incursus' advanced armor repair systems to the Ishkur's superior resistance and plating systems proceeded relatively smoothly. As a bonus, the team was able to carry over the Incursus' superior hybrid weapon damage boosting technology and create another strong selling point for their new Assault Ship.
Although the Ishkur project resulted in what would prove to be an extremely successful ship (in both direct ship sales and additional profits from increased use of CreoDron's advanced drone portfolio), Masalle Ambrette was left afterwards with thousands of mangled Tristan hulls that had failed the prototyping process. In order to recoup some of the development costs, CreoDron sold the hulls cheap as scrap to the highest bidder.

They say one woman's trash is another woman's treasure, and when CreoDron put the 'scrap' onto the market one smart scientist saw a diamond in the rough. Ruborraude Eyghelet, a rising star at Duvolle Laboratories, had just been recently put in charge of a top secret development project on contract from the Federation Navy. Her team was designing what would eventually come to be known as the Nemesis stealth bomber, a dramatic departure from normal Gallente battle doctrines that would help keep them competitive in the battlefields of the future. Eyghelet knew that the Nemesis would need to be a radical departure from previous frigate designs, but building a new hull design completely from scratch would take a portion of her limited budget that she could not afford to lose. When the report of the mangled Tristan fire-sale crossed her desk she immediately saw an opportunity to cut her costs.
The damaged Tristan hulls were reformed into a barely recognizable state during the prototyping process to accommodate the battleship sized missile launchers and bomb deployment system, with only the iconic front plating remaining to visually connect it to the frigate it had once been. The dronebay was converted into a bomb and missile storage bay, and the Duvolle team also managed to ingeniously convert the advanced tracking computer on the Tristan into an efficient missile guidance system. In the end Duvolle and Eyghelet managed to create the Nemesis while keeping costs down to only 14% overbudget, easily beating the market predictions and sending Duvolle stock to the highest it had reached in years.

It just goes to prove that the world of spaceship construction is more complicated and fascinating than any of us would expect.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Lili Lu
#395 - 2012-09-17 13:30:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
CCP Fozzie wrote:
eve is real Smile I was there

Or one could alternately say, It's magic P

edit- and while you're here, at the risk of sounding like just another plea/whine from a member of the playerbase, could you maybe just do a quick small tweak to improve the agility on the Nemesis. It's current agility appears to be a relic from a time when all those spaceship design folks thought that bombers might tank (and even tank with armor What?) and not want to be nimble and quick instead.Smile
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#396 - 2012-09-17 13:37:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
*ZOMGPOWNED*


Lol
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#397 - 2012-09-17 13:39:05 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
GREAT STUFF


.. because of Fozzie

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#398 - 2012-09-17 13:50:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
CCP Fozzie wrote:

ishkur blah blah tristan blah blah nemesis blah blah incursus


LOL

but seriously:

About ten years ago, the Caldari Navy was developing new combat cruisers to accompany the dawning of the capsuleer age. Guglielmo Kusomonmon was in charge of designing the newest, most skill oriented combat cruiser for the caldari fleet. Guglielmo himself was an artist, someone who liked to make his ships look different. For him, symmetrical ships were not necessary, he thought ships could look beautiful no matter whether they looked like a set of cargo containers mashed together or a slab of concrete thrown into space. He also had a phobia of turkeys. Thus, when he pondered "what could the most fearful thing be for an enemy to see when they encounter the caldari fleet?" The answer was obvious. Turkeys.

And thus the Moa was born!

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#399 - 2012-09-17 13:58:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
CCP Fozzie wrote:
words

Actually I think you'll find the stardrive of the Nemesis is based on colliding antimatter inteverters while the Tristan's shock dampers operate on a helix node which obviously would start a trinary feedback loop through the nitromainframe emitter Roll
Korsiri
Defying Vision
Iron Associates
#400 - 2012-09-17 14:01:03 UTC
All hail Fozzie! Also, would read Again.