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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#241 - 2012-08-17 21:47:23 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:


Really? Just for once, take a look at the effective range of a Hurricane and compare it to the dps and effective range of a Harbinger.

For a turret that is supposed to have a built in damage bonus Energy turrets are laughable at best given the insane requirements to fit them properly. Don't even get me started on the literal dozens of threads on how completely broken Tachyons are.


For fun, fit a Hurricane with a rack of 425mm ACs, 3x damage mods and tracking enhancers. Then fit a Harbinger with a rack of Focused Medium Pulse, 3x damage mods and tracking enhancers. See what damage projection graphs you get in EFT.

The Focused Medium Pulse take 16% more CPU than the 425mm ACs which in turn take 16% more PG then the lasers, so they're just about equivalent.


Fortunately, the harb in the same shield configuration as the cane can hit heavy pulses.

Oh, a cane with heavy pulse lasers outdamages a cane with autocannons at just under 23km. And it has 0 bonuses with lasers.


And even better is just how amazing lasers are at killing the new shield craze. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Karah Serrigan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#242 - 2012-08-17 21:53:18 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:


Really? Just for once, take a look at the effective range of a Hurricane and compare it to the dps and effective range of a Harbinger.

For a turret that is supposed to have a built in damage bonus Energy turrets are laughable at best given the insane requirements to fit them properly. Don't even get me started on the literal dozens of threads on how completely broken Tachyons are.


For fun, fit a Hurricane with a rack of 425mm ACs, 3x damage mods and tracking enhancers. Then fit a Harbinger with a rack of Focused Medium Pulse, 3x damage mods and tracking enhancers. See what damage projection graphs you get in EFT.

The Focused Medium Pulse take 16% more CPU than the 425mm ACs which in turn take 16% more PG then the lasers, so they're just about equivalent.


Fortunately, the harb in the same shield configuration as the cane can hit heavy pulses.

Oh, a cane with heavy pulse lasers outdamages a cane with autocannons at just under 23km. And it has 0 bonuses with lasers.


And even better is just how amazing lasers are at killing the new shield craze. :)

-Liang

except for t2 minmatar ships :(
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#243 - 2012-08-17 22:00:38 UTC
Karah Serrigan wrote:

except for t2 minmatar ships :(


Works fine: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29498

Hahbs managed to sneak into lock range right as the victim hit structure.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2012-08-17 22:17:28 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

That's the issue with drones. Drones are, in a way, just ammo

Like ammo, you should be able to put drones from a cargo container or a wreck into your drone bay. Dropping a container is a slow process so it's not like you could "hot swap" drones in the middle of a fight. Solves the problems you have with resupplying drones on a roam while also keeps them from being OP and too flexible during a fight.


This, especially in faction warfare it is a real problem when you lose drones. You could even make it like onlining an ofline module requiring 100% cap level so it is almost impossible during combat. Just let me safe up and swap some drones from cargo.

I still think the Tristan is light on CPU but a guess we will have to try it when it gets to the test server.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#245 - 2012-08-17 22:18:42 UTC
fozzie i never i8mplied that a 70km frigate would be any juggernaught or that they aint very nice as im olmost exclusively missles im just saying dont you think thats a little extreame especialy for a frigate. and that simply a kestral just has to operate in around the 55 mark upto around 60k max and that the kestral could beniffit from other things expecialy were something like rockets are a setup such as a shield that can take some punushment.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#246 - 2012-08-18 00:56:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuehnelt
serras bang wrote:
fozzie i never i8mplied that a 70km frigate would be any juggernaught or that they aint very nice as im olmost exclusively missles im just saying dont you think thats a little extreame especialy for a frigate. and that simply a kestral just has to operate in around the 55 mark upto around 60k max and that the kestral could beniffit from other things expecialy were something like rockets are a setup such as a shield that can take some punushment.


1. This bonus already exists on the Hookbill, which is a terrifying frig.

2. It allows the Kestrel to kite at long point range with rockets.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#247 - 2012-08-18 01:15:41 UTC
kestrals dont use point if stayed at max range other frigs are pritty much dead by time they burn into range. and that was before the new stats. i dont see the reasoning in extending the current range of the kestral missle boat unless there is going to be a gun platform that can match it i also dont see the point in this extream range if were all gonna recieve a multi platform frig that is specific to snipeing.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#248 - 2012-08-18 03:02:25 UTC
Hi. About this 'reloading drones' thing, allowing a lost drone to be replaced from the cargo by an identical drone would allow people to replace their losses on roams without providing the advantage of changing drone types without docking

I mean, if a Warrior II was lost, it could be replaced from the cargo with a Warrior II only

Allowing the pilot to change drone types in the bay during flight (from 5 Warriors to 5 ECM light drones in a 25m^3 bay) would be too good because it means people wouldn't have to make fitting sacrifices when it comes to drone bays. Make them dock up in a station for that sort of thing

I don't know if the 'not being able to replace losses' thing is a problem, but if it is, I think this would be the fairest solution

Maybe add a timer for it, like expedited transfer in PI, or disallow moving drones from the cargo while the ship is being locked
John Nucleus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#249 - 2012-08-18 04:04:06 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

That's the issue with drones. Drones are, in a way, just ammo

Like ammo, you should be able to put drones from a cargo container or a wreck into your drone bay. Dropping a container is a slow process so it's not like you could "hot swap" drones in the middle of a fight. Solves the problems you have with resupplying drones on a roam while also keeps them from being OP and too flexible during a fight.


This, especially in faction warfare it is a real problem when you lose drones. You could even make it like onlining an ofline module requiring 100% cap level so it is almost impossible during combat. Just let me safe up and swap some drones from cargo.


I like this. You can do the same now but you need a station, this would add autonomy and user friendlyness. I hope they'll take some time to take a deep look at drones and implement some of these ideas.

Also the UI needs some loving...
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#250 - 2012-08-18 05:06:27 UTC
Why exactly do I need 60km range on my kestrel? It sounds to me like this velocity bonus is mostly only beneficial for rockets.

Same for that tracking bonus on the tristan. It's really not going to do very much. Can't I have +50% rep instead?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#251 - 2012-08-18 08:17:39 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:

Uh what solo pvp are you doing? How do you catch a kiting Drake or 100MN Tengu with your Myrmidon or Proteus? Please enlighten me.


On a wormhole, where that 100MN AB is useless. There's a reason why you don't see 100MN AB Tengus in w-space.

My Myrm has dual webs. Yeah, I need to land in top of him, but that's the tactic, and that's where the balance is. Kiters need to apply their own tactic, brawlers their own. I caught and exterminated a nano-Vaga with a Proteus the other night. If I get kited and looks like I can't catch the opponent, I align out and toss dishounour drones on him, has worked every single time.

Oh and if you are Gallente and want to kite, fly the Talos, the best kiting BC in game.

@ Jame,

I understand what you are saying about the fleet doctrine issue, but really sov blobs are just one aspect of EVE. In my gangs, Drake is accepted if the player can't fly anything useful.



.
Anaphylacti
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#252 - 2012-08-18 10:51:41 UTC
Quote:

Kestrel:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% Bonus to Missile damage per level
10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level <-----

Breacher:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% Bonus to Missile damage per level
7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level



Can i get a 5% shield resist bonus on that kestrel instead.

I mean seriously light missiles all ready have enough range to do whatever they want and for rockets the buff is still going to keep them close enough, also being that caldari are THE slowest race, that they are going to be in brawling range anyway. I hope you'd learned how useless all these range bonuses are in the long run since the two most important ranges in pvp are 10-13km and 24-28km and anything more is sort of irrelevant.

If the breacher gets a shield bonus why cant the kestrel get one too? It would be the better bonus and actually make the caldari missile boat the better missile boat which it is supposed to be.
Saile Litestrider
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#253 - 2012-08-18 12:48:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Why aren't we making a Gallente tech one missile frigate?:
Some of you have expressed concerns about our change of plans that will leave Gallente and Amarr without tech one missile frigates. It's true that both races have missile ships later in their tech two lines (Bombers, Khanid, Roden (kinda)) but they do not have any other tech one missile ships. We decided that the benefits of providing a missile frigate when the race does not use missiles at the tech one level was minor at best. Tech two and faction ships often require significantly more training to be effectively used, and each individual size of missiles are actually quite fast to train into. Getting new Gallente players to train rocket and light missile skills would mean that only the missile support skills would be of any use until they cross trained to another race. Giving a real droneboat option at the T1 frigate level and creating new gameplay with the Navitas were both higher priorities.
To a large extent bombers are a special snowflake when it comes to training, we have no plans to change the weapon systems that bombers use.

While I totally agree with the logic on the Gallente side, I don't follow it in terms of Amarr ships. The Amarr lineup has a lot of rocket-specialized ships in the T2s. They don't just have they (very) occasional unexpected launcher like the Gallente ships, they're specifically geared toward rockets/HAMs. If you're wanting the T1 ships to be an introduction to the race and the other ships, you really should include a ship that handles rockets. Your justification is that you wouldn't have any other ships to immediately train into, but are you not planning on rebalancing cruisers down the line as well? The lack of HAMs in the T1 lineup is an existing fault in the Amarr ships, and should be addressed rather than grandfathered in. Also, I don't consider assault frigates all that far from T1 frigates in terms of training, and a new player who loves frigates and is buying his shiny new vengeance will be shocked to learn he has none of the skills needed for its weapons.
Lili Lu
#254 - 2012-08-18 13:59:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Anaphylacti wrote:
Quote:

Kestrel:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% Bonus to Missile damage per level
10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level <-----

Breacher:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% Bonus to Missile damage per level
7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level



Can i get a 5% shield resist bonus on that kestrel instead.

I mean seriously light missiles all ready have enough range to do whatever they want and for rockets the buff is still going to keep them close enough, also being that caldari are THE slowest race, that they are going to be in brawling range anyway. I hope you'd learned how useless all these range bonuses are in the long run since the two most important ranges in pvp are 10-13km and 24-28km and anything more is sort of irrelevant.

If the breacher gets a shield bonus why cant the kestrel get one too? It would be the better bonus and actually make the caldari missile boat the better missile boat which it is supposed to be.

Lol, Gallente is now the slowest race. See the new Tristan in the op. Also, if it plates with it's one less slot it will be even more of a fat turd for you to flush. Or you could live in fear of all the gallente boats with 10% armor repper bonuses with abundant grid and cpu to have dual reppers, cap inject, and fit the highest tier guns. Makes you wish your asb fits were as good.

The new racial paradigm: Electron blaser and/or destructible and slow droning dual active armor repping or plated gallente with the least speed of anyone. You for one had better welcome our new Gallente overlords.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#255 - 2012-08-18 14:06:22 UTC
Anaphylacti wrote:
Quote:

Kestrel:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% Bonus to Missile damage per level
10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level <-----

Breacher:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% Bonus to Missile damage per level
7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level



Can i get a 5% shield resist bonus on that kestrel instead.

I mean seriously light missiles all ready have enough range to do whatever they want and for rockets the buff is still going to keep them close enough, also being that caldari are THE slowest race, that they are going to be in brawling range anyway. I hope you'd learned how useless all these range bonuses are in the long run since the two most important ranges in pvp are 10-13km and 24-28km and anything more is sort of irrelevant.

If the breacher gets a shield bonus why cant the kestrel get one too? It would be the better bonus and actually make the caldari missile boat the better missile boat which it is supposed to be.


i agree caldari pride themselves on haveing the most advanced weapon systems of all the factions witch they pride there missles over every other race. also seing as all there ships are shield bassed ships it would imply there shield tech is better than all other empire faction ships. so why is every other empire over takeing caldari with shield tanking ships ?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#256 - 2012-08-18 15:06:52 UTC
serras bang wrote:
Anaphylacti wrote:
Quote:

Kestrel:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% Bonus to Missile damage per level
10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level <-----

Breacher:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% Bonus to Missile damage per level
7.5% Bonus to Shield boost amount per level



Can i get a 5% shield resist bonus on that kestrel instead.

I mean seriously light missiles all ready have enough range to do whatever they want and for rockets the buff is still going to keep them close enough, also being that caldari are THE slowest race, that they are going to be in brawling range anyway. I hope you'd learned how useless all these range bonuses are in the long run since the two most important ranges in pvp are 10-13km and 24-28km and anything more is sort of irrelevant.

If the breacher gets a shield bonus why cant the kestrel get one too? It would be the better bonus and actually make the caldari missile boat the better missile boat which it is supposed to be.


i agree caldari pride themselves on haveing the most advanced weapon systems of all the factions witch they pride there missles over every other race. also seing as all there ships are shield bassed ships it would imply there shield tech is better than all other empire faction ships. so why is every other empire over takeing caldari with shield tanking ships ?


Amarr and Caldari = buffer
Minmatard and Gallente = active

Thats why.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#257 - 2012-08-18 15:16:06 UTC
I predict many "shoot the drones, orbit at 18km" deaths for the new tristan.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#258 - 2012-08-18 15:52:16 UTC
since there seems to be ccp reading this thread i thought i would post this here and see what ccp muppet had to say:

i took it from a thread i started here.

MeBiatch wrote:
So from the changes in the frigs its logical to presume that we are going to see 10% bonus to internal amour repair amount per lev applied to ships like the brutix and hyperion...

This is really awesome for small to medium sized gangs as it will give said ships a strategic advantage... but for fleet fights alas this bonus becomes moot.


As far as i understand the effectiveness comes from how the Armour is made (dense crystals)... now presumably this special amour achieves a higher re cohesion when induced with nano repair bots that are emitted by the Armour repair systems...

Now what does this have to do with a large fleet you ask?



Well a huge component of fleet warfare is Remote Repair logi ships...

The basic mechanism (nano repair bots) are emited by both internal amour repair mods and remote armour repair mods...

Logically it would make sence that the bonus that allows internal amour repair mods to be more effective per level would also work external INCOMING remote repair. (i.e. the beam from the logi ship)

what this would do is scale the bonus and make gal ships with that bonus the "go-to" fleet ships...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#259 - 2012-08-18 16:24:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuehnelt
Saile Litestrider wrote:
While I totally agree with the logic on the Gallente side, I don't follow it in terms of Amarr ships. The Amarr lineup has a lot of rocket-specialized ships in the T2s. They don't just have they (very) occasional unexpected launcher like the Gallente ships, they're specifically geared toward rockets/HAMs. If you're wanting the T1 ships to be an introduction to the race and the other ships, you really should include a ship that handles rockets. Your justification is that you wouldn't have any other ships to immediately train into, but are you not planning on rebalancing cruisers down the line as well? The lack of HAMs in the T1 lineup is an existing fault in the Amarr ships, and should be addressed rather than grandfathered in. Also, I don't consider assault frigates all that far from T1 frigates in terms of training, and a new player who loves frigates and is buying his shiny new vengeance will be shocked to learn he has none of the skills needed for its weapons.


Yeah, AFs are the easiest T2 ship in the world to train into. Prereqs: Engineering V (already a very high priority for Amarrian pilots who want to fit their ships halfway sensibly), and Mechanics V (already a very priority priority for pvp pilots who want to go on to overheat their guns). So AFs are sort of 'free'. It's quite unlike Evasive Maneuvering (already a high priority for people who want to run lowsec camps?; not that it's not a great skill) or Electronics Upgrades (already a high priority for nobody, ever).

Missile boats in the Amarr T2 lineup: Vengeance, Malediction, Heretic, Anathema, Sacrilege, Damnation, Legion (T3). Purifiers don't count. Vengeance is arguably the superior AF; Malediction is indisputably the superior Inty. There is a random launcher hardpoint on the Arbitrator, not that anybody's ever noticed.

That said, all of these ships have generous turret hardpoints. The Inquisitor wasn't a 'rocket/HAM/torp boat' like all of these; it only had generic missile bonuses, was just a clone of the Breacher.
Lili Lu
#260 - 2012-08-18 21:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
X Gallentius wrote:
I predict many "shoot the drones, orbit at 18km" deaths for the new tristan.


Lol, what could you possibly know? http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=173441

The proposed Tristan is incredibly powerful, almost op with it's one less slot and least speed in class. It doesn't need any adjustment. Stop whining for simply the same number of slots as other ships and for more speed. It will be a slow, but high & indestructible dps monster, that can't/won't be kited. Pray it is not (pre-)nerfed further.P