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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

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Author
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#201 - 2012-08-17 14:02:34 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
To expand on the previous post from an hour or so ago, higher up #185 (the big wall of text), I was just talking about these issues with someone and some things leaped to mind.

Small Drone Bay (under 2.0 flights)


This is kind of like making a gun in an FPS game, where you can only carry one clip of ammo. As soon as that's spent, whether you use it up effectively, miss or just drop the clip 'cause you're clumsy, you have to run back to the spawn to reload. Would this gun be popular, compared to a gun where you CANNOT drop the clip, and where you can carry a hundred clips? I think the answer is obvious.

That's the issue with drones. Drones are, in a way, just ammo. While using them it doesn't mean you'll use them up, but things happen. Hot warpout, smartbomb, direct enemy fire, enemy drones, etc. Without ability to repair them in hold on the move, there's really nothing you can do, they do get "used up". By the way I love the idea of nanite paste repair on drones, but first we have to be able to see drone HP in bay.

Bottom line, with currently proposed Tristan, we are carrying 1.6 clips of ammo. Once those are gone, we are done. And the rate at which the drones get used up can range from never, to instant loss of 1.0 of 1.6, because of a hot warpout. One warpout, you're down to 0.6, two warpouts you're down to 0.0 and 2 turrets, which is to say you're done. Which brings me to usability.

Usability

This whole issue reminds me of what CCP Soundwave said earlier in the year, around FanFest, regarding Bookmarks and sharing. Basically, until he moved into Wormhole space, and started living there, he had no idea just how horrible it was, being unable to share bookmarks with a corp easily. It was only AFTER he started USING the mechanics that he realized how broken they were, and (partially in self-interest) that's where he pushed for the changes we all enjoy now.

I'm afraid that it will take something like this to actually make drone boats viable. Until one or more of the Devs begin to use drone boats, and ONLY drone boats, for whatever it is they're doing, I don't think we'll see any changes that improve real-world (within EVE) usability of these ships.


Fozzie, you also have to take into account small gang PVP. It isn't a 1v1 or a large fleet flight. There is a lot of cat-and-mouse engagements (or hit-and-run if you like). Not being able to deploy your damage or recall it at a moments notice basically kills this type of tactic for drone boats if we can't field another flight of drones.

I would also like to challenge you to a couple of 1v1's. I bet you won't be saying the Tristan is overpowered after that ;-)

So the Navitas is going to be a drone boat! You tease!!!!!
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#202 - 2012-08-17 14:06:28 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:

CCP Fozzie wrote:
What benefit is the drone tracking bonus for light drones?
Many of you have commented that the drone tracking bonus seems to not reach its full potential with light drones and you are right. The drone tracking does increase damage against small sig moving targets (especially for those who choose Hobgoblins over Warriors) but it's less powerful for light drones than a damage bonus would be and that is by design. With a damage bonus the Tristan would we far too powerful so we gave it a bonus that serves two purposes:
-It provides an effective damage bump in the most common gameplay that is significantly lower than the overpowered option
-It creates room for some interesting gameplay experimentation, such as sentry drone tricks

Seriously? sentry drone frigs? Do you realize how much training it takes to get into sentry drones. New players will not be there for you in that. As for vets, sentries still suck for immobility. They are great for pve, but not for pvp. PVP battles move a lot whether on the same grid or around a system or btween multiple systems. Sentries are wholly disadvantageous for pvp. There is a reason missile and gun boats dominate the top twenty in eve-kill and no drone boats there.


Agreed. If you are worried about balancing because of sentries please slap a "Can not deploy sentries on it". I only recently just got T2 sentries. The only reason I did was because I had to repair my sec status and needed to shoot rats. Now if you gave us small sentries that is another story.
Lili Lu
#203 - 2012-08-17 14:11:28 UTC
Which makes me again ask you guys whether you care about the lopsided eve-kill stats and your own internal stats about module activations. It's all drakes, tengus, and heavy missiles. It has been this way for years now and appears to be getting worse since the introduction of asbs.

I posted a thread in the test server subforum asking ytterbioum to reconsider the one plodding step at a time approach. There are tweaks you can do as interim measures to try to combat the combat hegemony that is the present Drakes and Tengus Online (and at the smaller ship level (merlin, cormorant, hookbill, condor, griffin, etc) eve.

As for your frig rebalancing it seems things will only get worse. You are setting caldari up as the only and far away blessed for it long range ships. Noone else it seems is getting any niche ship there. Then caldari is also getting close range possibilities as well. The top 20 (yeah i keep citing it because it's about the only statistical tool we have, but i know you have more available to you) is now dominated by caldari and minmatar shield tanking ships.

A ridiculous 70km kestrel will just be another addition to the ongoing trends. Light missiles need the slight damage buff you are giving them, but the ships that use them do not need a 10% range bonus. The only way that even could be palatable would be if you give TDs a missile flight time reduction effect. Then tds would become a mandatory mod. But they are already being used by caldari ships to **** over gallente ships as it is and at the frigate level. You could reduce the missile flight time skill to 5% per level as well. Rockets will still be usable for what they should be which is close range weapons.

Kiting is where it's at in eve atm. The tristan will not be able to do it as you have it presently configured. The kestrel will.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#204 - 2012-08-17 14:18:42 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Which makes me again ask you guys whether you care about the lopsided eve-kill stats and your own internal stats about module activations. It's all drakes, tengus, and heavy missiles. It has been this way for years now and appears to be getting worse since the introduction of asbs.

I posted a thread in the test server subforum asking ytterbioum to reconsider the one plodding step at a time approach. There are tweaks you can do as interim measures to try to combat the combat hegemony that is the present Drakes and Tengus Online (and at the smaller ship level (merlin, cormorant, hookbill, condor, griffin, etc) eve.

As for your frig rebalancing it seems things will only get worse. You are setting caldari up as the only and far away blessed for it long range ships. Noone else it seems is getting any niche ship there. Then caldari is also getting close range possibilities as well. The top 20 (yeah i keep citing it because it's about the only statistical tool we have, but i know you have more available to you) is now dominated by caldari and minmatar shield tanking ships.

A ridiculous 70km kestrel will just be another addition to the ongoing trends. Light missiles need the slight damage buff you are giving them, but the ships that use them do not need a 10% range bonus. The only way that even could be palatable would be if you give TDs a missile flight time reduction effect. Then tds would become a mandatory mod. But they are already being used by caldari ships to **** over gallente ships as it is and at the frigate level. You could reduce the missile flight time skill to 5% per level as well. Rockets will still be usable for what they should be which is close range weapons.

Kiting is where it's at in eve atm. The tristan will not be able to do it as you have it presently configured. The kestrel will.


I was going to use Merlins, Condors, and Kestrels in my 1v1's with Fozzie. Thanks for spoling my plan! He would have lost every match!
Lili Lu
#205 - 2012-08-17 14:29:30 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
I was going to use Merlins, Condors, and Kestrels in my 1v1's with Fozzie. Thanks for spoling my plan! He would have lost every match!

SadP

That's ok. He's ignoring me in all these threads. Maybe you'll benefit from it.

I don't think they understand the horrible state of balance in eve atm and their proposals will only exagerate the imbalances. I've got 4 accounts. I love eve. I play it a lot even though the balance sucks so bad (fight the power!). But the moment a new space game comes on market that is better balanced I'll let these accounts lapse. Sad
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#206 - 2012-08-17 14:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Lili Lu wrote:
Kiting is where it's at in eve atm.


I agree. Why brawl when you can kite?

Tiericide and the ship rebalancing initiative won't change that. It's a problem rooted in modules and weapon systems and to some extent game mechanics rather than ship hulls. It's also mostly a cruiser & battlecruiser issue.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#207 - 2012-08-17 14:41:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Although I'm liking where you're going with all these changes.


And I know you want to build in the "Combat,Attack,Support, etc" Ship lines...


I hope we don't see each ship in each class simply become "Bigger" versions of the last ships. Same bonuses on bigger ships is really gonna become a snooze fest.


I know you're still in the early stages, but giving the same bonuses for a Stabber and Breacher just with more HP is gonna make me What?

I hope you have some plans to shake it up a bit!

Where I am.

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#208 - 2012-08-17 15:00:56 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Which makes me again ask you guys whether you care about the lopsided eve-kill stats and your own internal stats about module activations. It's all drakes, tengus, and heavy missiles. It has been this way for years now and appears to be getting worse since the introduction of asbs.


You know, I often wonder about this same thing when it comes to games in general, not just EVE.

I remember back when arenas were introduced to WoW, and there were very obvious imbalances. Like 80% of top ranked 3v3 teams had the exact same composition - rogue, mage, priest. In 2v2, any combination of those also was quite high on the list. And in 5v5, EVERY SINGLE TEAM in top 100 had a shaman. Every. Bloody. One.

Now, there were lots of very good reasons why. Class synergy was one. The amount of control another. Independent diminishing returns timers due to ability types, which allowed them to stack. And the reason for the shaman was simple - Bloodlust - which was essentially +30% DPS team-wide buff for 60 seconds. A team without it stood no chance against a team with it. So, shaman was mandatory. No ifs, no buts.

Now, these imbalances were obvious. You had to look at the ladder, see team compositions and team representations, and you saw which classes needed work. It wasn't rocket surgery. For example, there was 1 (only 1 out of 300) feral druid in top 100 teams in 3v3 at the time. Again, you could argue a lot of things - you could say "well, maybe players who like feral druids don't like arenas, and specifically don't like 3v3 arenas, and that's why there's so few of them". Or you could pull your head out of wherever it's at for the winter and realize the class does not synergize well with anyone, takes three times as many keypresses to accomplish the same task, and in general makes it feel like you're playing chess when everyone else is playing checkers.

It's the same in EVE. You look at see all the Drakes and Tengus. The usual excuse? Well, Drakes are used in fleet blobs. Totally true. But now take it one step further and ask "WHY?" Why not a Myrmidon? Perhaps because Drake tank is passive, and Myrm tank is active? Or perhaps because Myrm is armor and Drake is shield? Or perhaps because it takes 6 clicks for Myrmidon to bring its armaments to bear, while it takes a Drake 1 click to bring 95% of its DPS online? Is it heavy missile and range issue? Or it could be any permutation of the above, including all of the above.

Bottom line, in a balanced game, there would be an equal likelihood of Drake or Myrm being chosen for a fleet doctrine. Ideally, they would be used roughly the same amount of the time. Regardless of reasons why. Sure Myrm is great for some things. But when those things happen rarely, a pilot ONLY trained for Myrm is **** out of luck, while a pilot who chose the Drake is sitting pretty. And that's not balance. And the reason for this imbalance is not the ships, it's the USABILITY of these ships, their real-life applications.

Same with Tengu and Proteus. Is Proteus bad? Heck no. It's just Tengu has a heck of a lot more applications. So most pilots training for a T3 go for a Tengu. And stats reflect that. Which means something's gotta change. Otherwise the game is an imbalanced mess.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#209 - 2012-08-17 15:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
The Tristan would get used in Faction Warfare. I'd guarantee it.

A popular tactic right now among the Minmatar is to shove 4+ cormorants into a minor plex. They sit on the button 60km away and snipe and kite anything that comes into the minor plex. You usually need 3-1 odds to shove them off the button and it normally isn't worth th exchange. So you can get your own cormorants (yawn) OR in the future you can take in sensor boosted Tristans loaded with a Warden II. It might be niche but I can completely see a use for it.
Lili Lu
#210 - 2012-08-17 15:16:51 UTC
Actually in thinking about the dev posts and what the balancing team is doing i wonder whether the problem isn't as simple as focusing balancing on 1v1 basis (and even there the recent changes fail). Eve is not a 1v1 game. You have dedicated tacklers, lachesis and huggins, immobilizing targets for drakes sitting at safe range, and other frigs for kiting frigs.

For frigs you have little ehp and thus somtimes you don't even need tackle so you can shoot from outside point range with some ships. Kite and the other guy keeps thinking I'm gaining once i catch him he's toast oops i'm losing too much hp better warp out darn waited too long . . . Or I have him pointed but not gaining fast enough to bring the blasters into range boom kited to death again.

And drones get lost in the movement of a fight. I don't think this present balancing team (like the others before it) understands the diffiulites inherent in drones. They seem to be focused on the dps potential and not the actual mechanics as they play out such as travel time to target, clumsy interface, destructibility, etc etc

THese threads make me Sad
Lili Lu
#211 - 2012-08-17 15:20:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The Tristan would get used in Faction Warfare. I'd guarantee it.

A popular tactic right now among the Minmatar is to shove 4+ cormorants into a minor plex. They sit on the button 60km away and snipe and kite anything that comes into the minor plex. You usually need 3-1 odds to shove them off the button and it normally isn't worth th exchange. So you can get your own cormorants (yawn) OR in the future you can take in sensor boosted Tristans loaded with a Warden II. It might be niche but I can completely see a use for it.

Unfortunately the Cormorants would still win because with each tristan that's popped the warden means squat anymore. Also, the deployment time on the wardens will lose to the preclicked guns just waiting for a single clickable target on overview.

edit and how many mods or rigs will you need to get the lock range to 60 or 100 on the tristan v the lock and gun range on the corms.
A sentry destroyer might even it up a bit, but it still will be niche unlike the mutliple engagment enabled cormorant.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#212 - 2012-08-17 15:28:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Repair paste on drones:
I like that idea, maybe someday (no promises).

.


OMG THATS AWESOME...

I would be soo damn happy if you did this... like OMG!

think about it racalling drones back in the day was a real skill... it was the reason why people said gal were the kings of solo pvp but also the hardest to master...

it could be tricky to change the mechanics...

but what i would do is once the drone is in the drone bay it interpreted as a moduel... and all its damage gets converted to be like heat damage on a mod... that way it might be easier to for programing to actually repair them...

also you could tier the drones for repair time... even go all the way up to fighters and fighter bombers...

I understand that you guys probs cant fit this into the winter realease... but perhaps the 1.1 or even 1.2 hell i could wait untill the next summer realease... but for the love of g-d DO IT!!!!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#213 - 2012-08-17 15:34:18 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

That's the issue with drones. Drones are, in a way, just ammo

Like ammo, you should be able to put drones from a cargo container or a wreck into your drone bay. Dropping a container is a slow process so it's not like you could "hot swap" drones in the middle of a fight. Solves the problems you have with resupplying drones on a roam while also keeps them from being OP and too flexible during a fight.
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#214 - 2012-08-17 15:37:40 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

Bottom line, in a balanced game, there would be an equal likelihood of Drake or Myrm being chosen for a fleet doctrine. Ideally, they would be used roughly the same amount of the time. Regardless of reasons why. Sure Myrm is great for some things. But when those things happen rarely, a pilot ONLY trained for Myrm is **** out of luck, while a pilot who chose the Drake is sitting pretty. And that's not balance. And the reason for this imbalance is not the ships, it's the USABILITY of these ships, their real-life applications.

Same with Tengu and Proteus. Is Proteus bad? Heck no. It's just Tengu has a heck of a lot more applications. So most pilots training for a T3 go for a Tengu. And stats reflect that. Which means something's gotta change. Otherwise the game is an imbalanced mess.


Achieving that kind of balance would simply mean that all ships are the same, just with different names and graphics. No differences in weapon systems, fitting options or piloting styles. In other words, the worst possible game ever.

EVE has a rich and varied selection of different ships, suitable for different tasks. You can train any ship you want to fly, and it's probably best to choose them to suit the intended use.

For optimal experience, pick a thing you want to do, pick the best ships for that, max your skills and spend time learning to fly that limited selection of ships.

Take for example your Tengu vs. Proteus pair. Tengu is a great carebear boat for wormhole PVE. Proteus roflstomps it in wormhole PVP. Drake vs Myrm? Sure, Drake is way better in fleets. Myrm eats it 1vs1.

Why change this? You want to press F1 in a Drake blob? Train Drake. You want to go for a balls to the wall solo lowsec roam? Train Myrm. Or Cane. Or whatever you like so much, that you are willing to put in the hours to make it work.

Balance means that each and every ship is viable choice for something, and this is what CCP is doing with tiericide.

.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#215 - 2012-08-17 15:39:51 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The Tristan would get used in Faction Warfare. I'd guarantee it.

A popular tactic right now among the Minmatar is to shove 4+ cormorants into a minor plex. They sit on the button 60km away and snipe and kite anything that comes into the minor plex. You usually need 3-1 odds to shove them off the button and it normally isn't worth th exchange. So you can get your own cormorants (yawn) OR in the future you can take in sensor boosted Tristans loaded with a Warden II. It might be niche but I can completely see a use for it.

I was going to suggest sniper drone maulus. The corms would just burn away from the Wardens.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#216 - 2012-08-17 15:49:45 UTC
Roime wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

Bottom line, in a balanced game, there would be an equal likelihood of Drake or Myrm being chosen for a fleet doctrine. Ideally, they would be used roughly the same amount of the time. Regardless of reasons why. Sure Myrm is great for some things. But when those things happen rarely, a pilot ONLY trained for Myrm is **** out of luck, while a pilot who chose the Drake is sitting pretty. And that's not balance. And the reason for this imbalance is not the ships, it's the USABILITY of these ships, their real-life applications.

Same with Tengu and Proteus. Is Proteus bad? Heck no. It's just Tengu has a heck of a lot more applications. So most pilots training for a T3 go for a Tengu. And stats reflect that. Which means something's gotta change. Otherwise the game is an imbalanced mess.


Achieving that kind of balance would simply mean that all ships are the same, just with different names and graphics. No differences in weapon systems, fitting options or piloting styles. In other words, the worst possible game ever.

EVE has a rich and varied selection of different ships, suitable for different tasks. You can train any ship you want to fly, and it's probably best to choose them to suit the intended use.

For optimal experience, pick a thing you want to do, pick the best ships for that, max your skills and spend time learning to fly that limited selection of ships.

Take for example your Tengu vs. Proteus pair. Tengu is a great carebear boat for wormhole PVE. Proteus roflstomps it in wormhole PVP. Drake vs Myrm? Sure, Drake is way better in fleets. Myrm eats it 1vs1.

Why change this? You want to press F1 in a Drake blob? Train Drake. You want to go for a balls to the wall solo lowsec roam? Train Myrm. Or Cane. Or whatever you like so much, that you are willing to put in the hours to make it work.

Balance means that each and every ship is viable choice for something, and this is what CCP is doing with tiericide.



Uh what solo pvp are you doing? How do you catch a kiting Drake or 100MN Tengu with your Myrmidon or Proteus? Please enlighten me.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#217 - 2012-08-17 16:15:19 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Which makes me again ask you guys whether you care about the lopsided eve-kill stats and your own internal stats about module activations. It's all drakes, tengus, and heavy missiles. It has been this way for years now and appears to be getting worse since the introduction of asbs.

I posted a thread in the test server subforum asking ytterbioum to reconsider the one plodding step at a time approach. There are tweaks you can do as interim measures to try to combat the combat hegemony that is the present Drakes and Tengus Online (and at the smaller ship level (merlin, cormorant, hookbill, condor, griffin, etc) eve.

As for your frig rebalancing it seems things will only get worse. You are setting caldari up as the only and far away blessed for it long range ships. Noone else it seems is getting any niche ship there. Then caldari is also getting close range possibilities as well. The top 20 (yeah i keep citing it because it's about the only statistical tool we have, but i know you have more available to you) is now dominated by caldari and minmatar shield tanking ships.

A ridiculous 70km kestrel will just be another addition to the ongoing trends. Light missiles need the slight damage buff you are giving them, but the ships that use them do not need a 10% range bonus. The only way that even could be palatable would be if you give TDs a missile flight time reduction effect. Then tds would become a mandatory mod. But they are already being used by caldari ships to **** over gallente ships as it is and at the frigate level. You could reduce the missile flight time skill to 5% per level as well. Rockets will still be usable for what they should be which is close range weapons.

Kiting is where it's at in eve atm. The tristan will not be able to do it as you have it presently configured. The kestrel will.


Drakes and Tengus are a balance problem at the moment, believe me when I say we understand that.

But if anything I feel we need to rely less on eve-wide module and ship stats like those available on eve-kill or in our more accurate internal tools. We can track every single module activation in eve but there's a big difference between having those numbers and understanding them. Context matters much more and if you were to rely too much on those numbers you might for instance think that the Talos needs a huge buff (which is obviously not true when you step back from the numbers).

I heartily disagree that 70km Kestrels are going to become some kind of gameplay juggernaut. Some people will find cool uses for them but delayed damage frigate bombardment is simply not close to being too powerful.

I also completely understand the difference between 1v1 combat and small fleets. I simply mentioned 1v1s because it was an area we had been able to get some very good testing in so far and an area where the Tristan excelled (if it was as good for fleets as it is in 1v1s we'd have to hit it with a giant nerf bat). We build our ships with a bunch of use cases in mind, and once we get the testing opened up to more people we'll be able to get even better feedback on those areas.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#218 - 2012-08-17 16:18:18 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:

Uh what solo pvp are you doing? How do you catch a kiting Drake or 100MN Tengu with your Myrmidon or Proteus? Please enlighten me.


The Proteus can do it, but the Myrm can't. The best ship for the job is the Zealot, Loki, and Talos.

-Liang

Ed: I mean, for solo killing the boosted 100mn tengu. Not simply for catching it. That's easy.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#219 - 2012-08-17 16:20:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Drakes and Tengus are a balance problem at the moment, believe me when I say we understand that.

But if anything I feel we need to rely less on eve-wide module and ship stats like those available on eve-kill or in our more accurate internal tools. We can track every single module activation in eve but there's a big difference between having those numbers and understanding them. Context matters much more and if you were to rely too much on those numbers you might for instance think that the Talos needs a huge buff (which is obviously not true when you step back from the numbers).

I heartily disagree that 70km Kestrels are going to become some kind of gameplay juggernaut. Some people will find cool uses for them but delayed damage frigate bombardment is simply not close to being too powerful.

I also completely understand the difference between 1v1 combat and small fleets. I simply mentioned 1v1s because it was an area we had been able to get some very good testing in so far and an area where the Tristan excelled (if it was as good for fleets as it is in 1v1s we'd have to hit it with a giant nerf bat). We build our ships with a bunch of use cases in mind, and once we get the testing opened up to more people we'll be able to get even better feedback on those areas.


While I really love that you understand the difference between raw stats and the application of them... but can you please boost the Talos more? It's not... powerful enough. And the Oracle too! Heh, heh, heh. MUAHAHAHAHA!!!

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#220 - 2012-08-17 16:22:01 UTC
Roime wrote:
Achieving that kind of balance would simply mean that all ships are the same, just with different names and graphics. No differences in weapon systems, fitting options or piloting styles. In other words, the worst possible game ever.


It's hard, I'll give you that. But it's not impossible. And it does not require all ships to be the same.

It requires that each race has ships that can perform well in any given task with any given weapon. The problem is, such balance does not end with hulls, it includes weapons, movement and all the modules and skills.

For example, consider Minmatar artillery and Gallente rails. In theory, they should perform the same task - instant damage at long range. Only artillery is used far more than rails. Why? Simple. High alpha on artillery, steady DPS but low alpha on rails.

With artillery, the first salvo might just pop the target, which also negates any possibility of repair to the damaged ship. It goes from 100% to 0% in a second. Boom, gone. There are other considerations as well, for example artillery fires cap-free, rails require capacitor. Rails have higher ROF, which means they use more ammo. Which in turn means a ship has to both carry more ammo and will expend more ammo (and thus more ISK) for the same result. Now, rails, on paper, have the advantage of having longer range than artillery. But in practice, with probing the way it is, this advantage is nullified.

Add all of this together, and artillery is a clear winner over rails. And that is what most people use. And that is what EVEKill reflects as well.

Look, people aren't stupid. This is the same mechanic used in other games. I'll take it from the above example I made of rogue/mage/priest in WoW. Part of the reason 80% of top-rated teams had that composition is high burst. When a rogue ambushes you from stealth, it is the equivalent of the artillery salvo. When a mage pops a cooldown that makes the next cast instant, and fires a huge nuke, it is once again an equivalent of artillery salvo. These together have the potential to drop any one target in one hit, before the healer (logistics) ,if any, has a chance to react. Boom, 3v3 is now 3v2.

Now consider a warlock class, which is high damage at range, same as mage, but done with DoTs (Damage Over Time), the same issue as rails. While they do the same DPS, and from higher range, in practice range is too easy to negate (same as in EVE) and a slow steady steam of DPS (high ROF, medium damage, low alpha) is very easily countered by any healer with HoT (Heal Over Time). And once again, people are not stupid. And warlocks were one of the lesser represented classes for exactly that reason (and several others).

Quote:
EVE has a rich and varied selection of different ships, suitable for different tasks. You can train any ship you want to fly, and it's probably best to choose them to suit the intended use.


Problem is in training time. If I chose "wrong", like for example choosing Gallente hulls and drone skills, when the latest fleet doctrine dictates shield tank and missiles with Caldari hulls, I am **** out of luck. If Gallente had hulls that were a match for Drake - same applies DPS but via a different but BALANCED weapon system, and comparable mobility with armor tank, then perhaps. They wouldn't be same - they would be different but equal.

I mean, let's face it, even if you look at tanks alone, there's already a huge imbalance. One can be passive, the other cannot, not without logistics/repair costs. One gives the bonus at beginning of cycle, one at the end. One has major penalties (armor, rigs), the other does not (or at least not as pronounced). Shields recently got ASB, which we all know is bull****. Armor got a weak weird EANM that is in no way, shape or form comparable. It is, simply put, not balanced. And, and I know I said it before, people are NOT stupid. Which is why we see ASB used way, way, WAY more than whatever that new armor module is called. It is an unbalanced mechanic, and people are (ab)using it to their heart's content.

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For optimal experience, pick a thing you want to do, pick the best ships for that, max your skills and spend time learning to fly that limited selection of ships.


Pick one, but based on what? For example, when I was starting the game and doing the Gallente tutorial, I was told that Gallente are drone kings. And that drones are Gallente racial weapon, same as projectiles for Minmatar or missiles for Caldari. That was...mmm...how shall I put it nicely...not entirely accurate? At best, a Gallente drone boat is a split weapon system of hybrids/drones.There are no frigate/destroyer drone boats, despite it being a racial weapon. Etc., etc.Based on information available to me at the time, I made the right choice. The information was wrong, or at best misleading.

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Take for example your Tengu vs. Proteus pair. Tengu is a great carebear boat for wormhole PVE. Proteus roflstomps it in wormhole PVP. Drake vs Myrm? Sure, Drake is way better in fleets. Myrm eats it 1vs1. Why change this?


Isn't it obvious? Because if I trained for a Myrm, I can't participate in fleets. And if I didn't train for Tengu, I can't carebear it up in wormhole PvE (or at least not as well). There should be ships in Gallente lineup that do fleets as well as Drake, and ships in Gallente lineup that do WH PvE as well as Tengu.

Otherwise CCP has to re-do the tutorials once again, and tell you players "if you want to PvP, go Winmatar. If you want fleet blobs, go Caldari. Etc., etc." Which, let's face it, is not going to happen. Though it's not such a bad idea, close to "class choice" in other MMOs. You don't make a warrior expecting to do ranged DPS. You are given an honest up-front description of what you're getting into.