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New dev blog: Ship Balancing: Mining Barges

First post
Author
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#481 - 2012-08-12 05:28:08 UTC
long gone are the days when 50,000 player regularly logged.....and this is the best ccp could come up with? many players had perfect hulk and orca skills and now the hulk is nerfed to benefit whomever is the flavor of the month. Ugh
Dave stark
#482 - 2012-08-12 07:59:34 UTC
people need to look up the definition of nerfed, it honestly doesn't mean what half of you people think it means.
celebro
Perpetuum Industries
#483 - 2012-08-13 11:24:59 UTC
These changes made me come back and try out the different mining vessels, all round a good change, though I would still prefer the Hulk with slightly more cargo hold and able to tank better.
Captian Meths
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#484 - 2012-08-13 11:29:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Captian Meths
Dalilus wrote:
long gone are the days when 50,000 player regularly logged.....and this is the best ccp could come up with? many players had perfect hulk and orca skills and now the hulk is nerfed to benefit whomever is the flavor of the month. Ugh


Totally agree!! I think the aim of the game is now to benefit the new players only as they are losing players fast and at this rate might be dead soon if they don't give the noob easier access to mining and pew pew ops. Changes aint worth coming back to the game - sad but true :( Give it a year or two, if the game is still alive I am sure CCP pulled they finger and eventually started to listen to the players not their uninformed management.
Recoaim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#485 - 2012-08-13 13:31:54 UTC
All the ISK spent to get five Hulks with cargo hold optimization LOL. At least I can do 2 cycles before the ore hold is full when not being boosted.Ugh Oh well I guess it's just a game and there are other ships.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#486 - 2012-08-13 14:21:25 UTC
My God!

It's like listening to a jet engine shutting down. But it never shuts down! Roll
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders
#487 - 2012-08-13 16:48:10 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
My God!

It's like listening to a jet engine shutting down. But it never shuts down! Roll

Or listening to my one year old and three year old make noise (they start yelling "ahhhhh" at one another and won't stop).

Having used the Retriever and looking at ice mining, I can see how this is really a master stroke by CCP. Here's why: It is now easier for any player to get a ship and go get ice for their POS. Using a Retriever allows a large amount of ice with minimal baby sitting. So more people can easily do this. Therefore they need to buy less ice. So ice botters are making way less from selling ice. Since they bot to make isk and/or real cash (I'm sure they do this, despite it being against the rules), it becomes less and less profitable for them to bot, making them stop botting. After all, if more players are now getting their own ice, they don't need to buy it, creating a glut on the market and causing prices to drop, killing botter profits. Eventually, a larger number of botters will be gone, the glut will decrease and prices will stabilize so players can still make some isk mining, but not as is currently.

A new balance will be found with less miners overall, getting more people to follow other career options. I can see ore mining following a similar path as well. As more players do their own mining, it just stops being useful/profitable to bot-mine.

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.

Uthgaard
Because ISK
#488 - 2012-08-13 16:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Uthgaard
The issue is that while in theory, it sounds good to make the hulk dependent on a group, and not a solo mining option, in practice, it doesn't work out that way. I certainly like the design decision's intent in theory. However, in practice, the result we end up with leaves the hulk as a ship of rapidly declining value due to obscene impracticality, because a dev decided to go too far with the changes, effectively derping all over the ore ships.

What happened was the hulk was turned into a quarter of a billion isk ship that can be alphad by a 2m frigate. They can be suicide ganked in large groups by smartbombs. No group is going to prevent that loss. Suicide ganking is trivial in any sec, because of the low cost involved in doing so. Place that alongside the realization that the reason to kill the hulk is already sitting outside of it in a jetcan due to the ore hold changes, while considering that the added ore yield is extremely marginal.

The current relative level of value that one must invest in order to succeed with a suicide gank against a hulk is inconsistent with the current game design. You wouldn't expect to pop an obelisk with a velator, and the obelisk can actually hold something of value.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#489 - 2012-08-13 16:57:43 UTC
Anvil44 wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
My God!

It's like listening to a jet engine shutting down. But it never shuts down! Roll

Or listening to my one year old and three year old make noise (they start yelling "ahhhhh" at one another and won't stop).

Having used the Retriever and looking at ice mining, I can see how this is really a master stroke by CCP. Here's why: It is now easier for any player to get a ship and go get ice for their POS. Using a Retriever allows a large amount of ice with minimal baby sitting. So more people can easily do this. Therefore they need to buy less ice. So ice botters are making way less from selling ice. Since they bot to make isk and/or real cash (I'm sure they do this, despite it being against the rules), it becomes less and less profitable for them to bot, making them stop botting. After all, if more players are now getting their own ice, they don't need to buy it, creating a glut on the market and causing prices to drop, killing botter profits. Eventually, a larger number of botters will be gone, the glut will decrease and prices will stabilize so players can still make some isk mining, but not as is currently.

A new balance will be found with less miners overall, getting more people to follow other career options. I can see ore mining following a similar path as well. As more players do their own mining, it just stops being useful/profitable to bot-mine.



The changes actually make it easier for botters, and regardless of the prices, botting will still be profitable, its steady isk income for no effort. If prices go down, they just put out more bots.
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders
#490 - 2012-08-13 18:15:04 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:



The changes actually make it easier for botters, and regardless of the prices, botting will still be profitable, its steady isk income for no effort. If prices go down, they just put out more bots.

I suppose if you have unlimited cash for more accounts, you can put out more bots. But why bother, if you make less isk per account than what it costs to run the account? You create accounts and run them with bots to make isk, to buy PLEX which you sell to other players for $. (At least that is the only reason I can think of to run bots). If you make less isk, you can buy less PLEX which means you make less $. At some point, it could stop being worthwhile as the glut of ice and refined ice products drive the prices down, while the versatility and usefulness of the newly redesigned mining ships drives demand down. Economics will come into play sooner or later. And these changes have the potential to make it sooner.

Our corp has seen prices for ice drop dramatically in the last week and we have mined a LOT of ice for our own POS use. We don't need to buy ice for quite a while now as we have buffed our supply. And it wasn't that hard to do. I mined probably 3-4 times more ice in the same amount of time in my Retriever as I did before the changes. Knowing full well I could still be easily ganked of course. And now I am in no hurry to get into an Exhumer for high sec ice harvesting.

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.

Idris Helion
Doomheim
#491 - 2012-08-13 19:49:30 UTC
Uthgaard wrote:
The issue is that while in theory, it sounds good to make the hulk dependent on a group, and not a solo mining option, in practice, it doesn't work out that way. I certainly like the design decision's intent in theory. However, in practice, the result we end up with leaves the hulk as a ship of rapidly declining value due to obscene impracticality, because a dev decided to go too far with the changes, effectively derping all over the ore ships.

What happened was the hulk was turned into a quarter of a billion isk ship that can be alphad by a 2m frigate. They can be suicide ganked in large groups by smartbombs. No group is going to prevent that loss. Suicide ganking is trivial in any sec, because of the low cost involved in doing so. Place that alongside the realization that the reason to kill the hulk is already sitting outside of it in a jetcan due to the ore hold changes, while considering that the added ore yield is extremely marginal.

The current relative level of value that one must invest in order to succeed with a suicide gank against a hulk is inconsistent with the current game design. You wouldn't expect to pop an obelisk with a velator, and the obelisk can actually hold something of value.


Hulks were always very gankable due to the paper-tank fits so many miners used. (Cargo over tank always seems like a good trade until some Goon comes by and turns your expensive exhumer into a pile of space debris. And cargo over yield -- expanders instead of MLU's in the lows -- was just a dumb way to use a Hulk.)

The buffs to the T1 barges are actually a bigger deal than to their T2 exhumer variants.

Consider the lowly procurer: prior to the patch, it really had no reason to exists except as a hull for the Skiff. No miner in his right mind would have flown a procurer -- an Osprey outmined it and offered better protection to boot. It was one of the worst ships in the game, by far. Now? It's a decent low-end miner with an awesome tank. The Skiff, even more so. I'm sure I'm not the only one seeing roles for these ships that have nothing whatever to do with running mining lasers!

The Retriever went from being a "meh" T1 option to being an awesome (and cheap!) solo mining vessel. And the Mackinaw is now the Mack-daddy of the mining world for lots of pilots who used to roll a Hulk.

The Covetor is now a viable alternative to a Hulk if you're just starting a mining corp and need to outfit your pilots (though a Ret is probably a better option, honestly).

And the Hulk? The Hulk is still the king of yield, so that hasn't changed. If you flew a Hulk before, very little about your life will change unless you depended on a big cargo bay (which apparently a lot of Hulk pilots did). But since the Hulk is now targeted at fleet mining ops, individual cargo should be less of an issue. In other respects, the Hulk is as good as it ever was.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#492 - 2012-08-13 23:26:32 UTC
Those worried that the latest round of changes will somehow kill the sandbox, remember that off-label use still lives.

You'll figure out some of the goodies they put into this release soon enough if you get out of your hyperfocus on the hulk changes (BTW, the Hulk is now the best ice miner as well as the best ore miner as long as you have a hauler, so whine away).

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

TheSpyInCorp
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#493 - 2012-08-13 23:54:39 UTC
would be cool if we could get a 2 pulse notification burst when our ore bay gets to the point where it won't hold another strip miner cycle. Though I guess you would have to treat the strip miner closest from finishing as if it represented the barge's total strip miner yield.
Sigras
Conglomo
#494 - 2012-08-14 00:32:47 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
The changes actually make it easier for botters, and regardless of the prices, botting will still be profitable, its steady isk income for no effort. If prices go down, they just put out more bots.

I agree that botting will never go away unless hit with the ban hammer from CCP, but how exactly does this change help bots?

If anything its a nerf to them because they already had the perfect programming to dock as soon as their cargohold is full, whereas humans have to pay attention and dock when their cargohold is full.

The programming code is exactly the same they just go longer between docks, and now they cant mine as much as they used to before . . . I dont see the problem
Mini Mizer
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#495 - 2012-08-14 07:06:20 UTC
worthless change
worthless effort
worthless things to train

keep ruining the ships and the playstyles.

go go go
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#496 - 2012-08-14 14:51:17 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
And the Hulk? The Hulk is still the king of yield, so that hasn't changed. If you flew a Hulk before, very little about your life will change unless you depended on a big cargo bay (which apparently a lot of Hulk pilots did). But since the Hulk is now targeted at fleet mining ops, individual cargo should be less of an issue. In other respects, the Hulk is as good as it ever was.

All your points are good, and even most of this is as well. But the cargo/crystal issue for hulk pilots really is a royal PITA... there just isn't a good mechanism for keeping track of who owns which crystal during mining ops (and anybody who says 'use cans!' is just slapping a band-aid on the problem), and for folks (like me) who are able to mine semi-solo in 0.0, not having a full crystal compliment is imposing a major headache for no legitimate gameplay or balance reason.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#497 - 2012-08-14 15:05:38 UTC
Atum wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:
And the Hulk? The Hulk is still the king of yield, so that hasn't changed. If you flew a Hulk before, very little about your life will change unless you depended on a big cargo bay (which apparently a lot of Hulk pilots did). But since the Hulk is now targeted at fleet mining ops, individual cargo should be less of an issue. In other respects, the Hulk is as good as it ever was.

All your points are good, and even most of this is as well. But the cargo/crystal issue for hulk pilots really is a royal PITA... there just isn't a good mechanism for keeping track of who owns which crystal during mining ops (and anybody who says 'use cans!' is just slapping a band-aid on the problem), and for folks (like me) who are able to mine semi-solo in 0.0, not having a full crystal compliment is imposing a major headache for no legitimate gameplay or balance reason.

Anybody for whom the crystal problem with the hulk is an actual problem would probably be happier flying a mackinaw, if they can get over the fact that they can't get the best cargo hold and the best yield in the same ship.

And if you are mining in 0.0 in anything but a fully boosted fleet with haulers and guards you are already giving up the yield, so WTF is the problem here? Upset that there's now a ship better suited to the task?

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#498 - 2012-08-14 15:53:49 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
And if you are mining in 0.0 in anything but a fully boosted fleet with haulers and guards you are already giving up the yield, so WTF is the problem here? Upset that there's now a ship better suited to the task?

You're late to the show, but in an earlier message (most likely ten pages back, if not more), I made the observation that every 0.0 miner I know already either fleets up with an off-grid booster, and/or multiboxes. They just don't all sit at the same asteroid field and circle-jerk (sing cumbaya, whatever). The rorq or orca sits in a pos (sometimes afk, especially if it's a deployed rorq) while the miners run around doing their thing. The multiboxing variant is often a max-yield hulk protected+boosted by a BC or command ship with gang links and a mining foreman chipped pilot who busies themselves chaining rats. In the first case, you're now penalizing the hulk pilot for .... what reason? They're part of a fleet, they're being social, they're just not all in the same field with ships that have "KILL ME!!! I'M SLOWER THAN FROZEN MOLASSES!!!" written all over them. In the second case, you're forcing an artificial limitation on efficiency for.... why? Maybe the BC/Command ship starts carrying crystals, so instead of limiting the crystal storage in the hulk, you're limiting the ammo/salvage storage in the fighter. Either way, you've nerfed what had previously been a perfectly functional system for no reason, and made miners' lives harder instead of easier.

Yeah, yeah, HTFU, adapt or die, whatever. If CCP wants war, they can't keep kicking the feet out from underneath the people who provide the materials for it. Eventually there'll be nothing left to fight with, and nobody (aside from botters) left who wants to do the grunt work of harvesting the materials for replacement.
Crexa
Ion Industrials
#499 - 2012-08-14 16:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Crexa
The changes to the various mining ships doesn't bother me too much its part of what happens in EVE and for that matter any MMO.

What bothers me, NO ANNOYS me is the unified inventory crap and its impact on the cargo hold/corporate hanger/ship maint./ore hold. etc. Navigating all this crap is annoying because it doens't work quite right nor do changes stick, and the cargo hold button on the hud takes me to what is now the least used storage location.

"F=ma, so obviously they're putting mouths against arses to produce a force." "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"

Infinite Force
#500 - 2012-08-14 19:44:25 UTC
Atum wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
And if you are mining in 0.0 in anything but a fully boosted fleet with haulers and guards you are already giving up the yield, so WTF is the problem here? Upset that there's now a ship better suited to the task?

You're late to the show, but in an earlier message (most likely ten pages back, if not more), I made the observation that every 0.0 miner I know already either fleets up with an off-grid booster, and/or multiboxes. They just don't all sit at the same asteroid field and circle-jerk (sing cumbaya, whatever). The rorq or orca sits in a pos (sometimes afk, especially if it's a deployed rorq) while the miners run around doing their thing. The multiboxing variant is often a max-yield hulk protected+boosted by a BC or command ship with gang links and a mining foreman chipped pilot who busies themselves chaining rats. In the first case, you're now penalizing the hulk pilot for .... what reason? They're part of a fleet, they're being social, they're just not all in the same field with ships that have "KILL ME!!! I'M SLOWER THAN FROZEN MOLASSES!!!" written all over them. In the second case, you're forcing an artificial limitation on efficiency for.... why? Maybe the BC/Command ship starts carrying crystals, so instead of limiting the crystal storage in the hulk, you're limiting the ammo/salvage storage in the fighter. Either way, you've nerfed what had previously been a perfectly functional system for no reason, and made miners' lives harder instead of easier.

Yeah, yeah, HTFU, adapt or die, whatever. If CCP wants war, they can't keep kicking the feet out from underneath the people who provide the materials for it. Eventually there'll be nothing left to fight with, and nobody (aside from botters) left who wants to do the grunt work of harvesting the materials for replacement.

QFT.

We've pretty much been beaten over the head by CCPs barge "update". As I've stated elsewhere - I like the changes -- for the most part.

There were 3 big issues that needed to be addressed (balanced) between the 6 Barges:
1. Tank
2. Ore Hold
3. Yield

So, what happened? (You should have read the Dev Blog & Patch Notes by now.)

Using the standard scale of 5 pts for Primary, 3 pts Secondary, and 1 pt for Tertiary abilities, we end up like this:
  • Tank - Skiff (5) / Mack (3) / Hulk (1)
  • Ore Hold - Mack (5) / Skiff (3) / Hulk (1)
  • Yield - Hulk (5) / Mack (3) / Skiff (1)


  • Mack: 11 points
    Skiff : 9 Points
    Hulk: 7 Points

    Each Barge has a primary 'role feature', but the 2nd & 3rd 'features' are what really makes or breaks these changes.

    For all 6 barges, 2 of these 'role features' should have been implemented - a primary and a secondary.

    It was pointed out in testing, over and over again, that the Mack would simply replace the Hulk if the balancing wasn't done right.

    The feedback was not listened to in general, so is it any wonder why the Mack is now "king of the Barges"?

    HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

    http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!