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New dev blog: Ship Balancing: Mining Barges

First post
Author
Ruareve
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#361 - 2012-08-08 18:24:12 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
Atum wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
The Hulk has enough space to bring 1 set of tech II crystals in his mining lasers plus 4 spare sets of crystals. On average, this should allow you to mine 1 type of ore for at least 25 hours or 5 types of ore for at least 5 hours each.

Assuming a "set" equals three, and should last approximately five hours, have I always just had really ****** luck with crystals, or has their volatility been reduced? If the former, I'd appreciate having my undocumented luck stat re-rolled. If the latter, I'm still quite displeased with not being able to carry a set of everything, but at least I won't need five of each crystal anymore.


And there's still a metric fsckton of other comments made by myself and others that need addressing.............


At risk of sounding like a broken record:

CCP Tallest you are sounding like a paper theory crafter warrior than someone who actually put the theory to use.

Breaking down crystals into how long they last just does not work, rock types vary in size and length of time to mine.

Used crystals last much less longer than the stated 5 hours.

In reality your numbers are a crock, so you are forcing us to break up our mining cycles to change out crystals, whether you have to head to a pos/dockup or arrange someone to deliver them to you..

Counting the set loaded in the lasers is false as well, as you can't load ammo while docked, so in reality, the selection of crystals to load up before heading out is 4 sets without spares.

Is that the intention of this change, for people to just say the hell with T2 lasers and mine less?


Pretty sure you can load ammo while docked, just drag and drop onto the laser and the crystal is loaded.

The Hulk is designed as a fleet miner, so there should always be support ships available. As for the "whose crystal is it" thing just have the orca toss in some medium containers and label them to avoid confusion.

The problem is the Hulk can either be the highest output miner and have a pitiful tank so that dessie's can gank them, or you drop below the other barges output but fit a tank. The Hulk will continue to be nothing but a free kill in high sec with the current EHP and design.

Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/

CCP Tallest
C C P
C C P Alliance
#362 - 2012-08-08 18:51:15 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
corestwo wrote:
My "math" is looking at a maxed out rorqual boosted Hulk in EFT and seeing that it gets 2857m3/minute in yield. 2857m3 x 60 minutes is 171,420m3 per hour, which means 1,171,420 units of veld per hour, which is in line with what the blog says after accounting for the fact that I didn't bother to plug implants into the miner profile in EFT.

So, assuming the information posted in the blog here is accurate, things don't change. If sisi has different information, then perhaps its running a slightly older version than what is going to push to live or something.


my maths has gone wrong somewhere, i've got 104.0625 second cycles with rorq bonuses, somehow i'm just getting more yield.

a hulk with...
t2 strips + t2 crystals, astrogeology, mining, mining barges, exhumers all at V, then 2x mlus and both the 5% highwall and the michi implant i'm getting 1961.03...m3 per cycle per strip, giving me 3392m3 per min.

**** knows, it's too late at night for me to be messing with this crap.

with orca bonuses it's 2898.5.. m3/cycle, giving 173,911m3 which is closer to dev blog numbers.

You are correct in this. I was using Orca bonuses when clearly the Rorqual bonus is superior. I have updated the blog to include both sets of numbers.

[b]★ EVE Game Designer ★ ♥ Team Super Friends ♥[/b]

Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#363 - 2012-08-08 19:02:16 UTC
I know you can't put 2 of the new rigs on at the same time, but was it possible to install one of each type onto the same ship?
marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc.
The Bastion
#364 - 2012-08-08 20:28:23 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
I know you can't put 2 of the new rigs on at the same time, but was it possible to install one of each type onto the same ship?



You cant put two Ice rigs on but you can put a medium ice harvester accelerator 1 (Only type available) Cry

Plus A Med Processor Overclocking Unit giving you a 7.1% boost to CPU,

Add in an EE 605 slot 6 implant and you should have enough CPU to fit a reasonable tank to the hulk for almost all Null sec spawns given good skills.



Humanity is the thin veneer that remains after you remove the baffled chimp.

Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#365 - 2012-08-08 20:44:22 UTC
I meant that 2 rigs being one ice and one mercoxit rig.
Sigras
Conglomo
#366 - 2012-08-08 20:51:13 UTC
theyre both 250 calibration so no.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#367 - 2012-08-08 21:09:13 UTC
Sigras wrote:
theyre both 250 calibration so no.


Dastardly, was hoping we could of went from 3 different dedicated mining ships to 2 dedicated mining ship types.
Sigras
Conglomo
#368 - 2012-08-08 21:11:55 UTC
how so? you still only need two ships since there is no rig that helps ore mining. you have one for ore/mercoxit and one for ore/ice
Sigras
Conglomo
#369 - 2012-08-08 21:49:16 UTC
One question I just thought of:

Are the invention requirements for the mining barges going to be changed? because as it stands, its quite a bit harder to invent a hulk than skiff.
Dave stark
#370 - 2012-08-08 22:01:12 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
corestwo wrote:
My "math" is looking at a maxed out rorqual boosted Hulk in EFT and seeing that it gets 2857m3/minute in yield. 2857m3 x 60 minutes is 171,420m3 per hour, which means 1,171,420 units of veld per hour, which is in line with what the blog says after accounting for the fact that I didn't bother to plug implants into the miner profile in EFT.

So, assuming the information posted in the blog here is accurate, things don't change. If sisi has different information, then perhaps its running a slightly older version than what is going to push to live or something.


my maths has gone wrong somewhere, i've got 104.0625 second cycles with rorq bonuses, somehow i'm just getting more yield.

a hulk with...
t2 strips + t2 crystals, astrogeology, mining, mining barges, exhumers all at V, then 2x mlus and both the 5% highwall and the michi implant i'm getting 1961.03...m3 per cycle per strip, giving me 3392m3 per min.

**** knows, it's too late at night for me to be messing with this crap.

with orca bonuses it's 2898.5.. m3/cycle, giving 173,911m3 which is closer to dev blog numbers.

You are correct in this. I was using Orca bonuses when clearly the Rorqual bonus is superior. I have updated the blog to include both sets of numbers.


good to know i managed to puzzle it out correctly. thanks for the confirmation.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#371 - 2012-08-08 22:11:09 UTC
Sigras wrote:
how so? you still only need two ships since there is no rig that helps ore mining. you have one for ore/mercoxit and one for ore/ice


One hulk requires cargo rigs so I can carry spare crystals.
Sigras
Conglomo
#372 - 2012-08-08 22:30:38 UTC
because one cargo rig isnt enough for you? assuming you're mining in a hulk which is what youve been whining about all this time, each cargo rig will allow you to fit one extra set of crystals . . . is it really worth buying another ship so you can mine one additional type of ore at a time?
Dave stark
#373 - 2012-08-08 22:35:26 UTC
pro tip; stop putting cargo rigs on your hulk, it was a bad idea before, however now it's just pure ******* ********.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#374 - 2012-08-08 22:47:05 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
pro tip; stop putting cargo rigs on your hulk, it was a bad idea before, however now it's just pure ******* ********.


QFT

A cargo-maxed Hulk was always a failfit. It's just more so now.
Mos7Wan7ed
Hardcore Industries
#375 - 2012-08-08 23:43:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed
CCP Tallest wrote:
The Hulk has enough space to bring 1 set of tech II crystals in his mining lasers plus 4 spare sets of crystals. On average, this should allow you to mine 1 type of ore for at least 25 hours or 5 types of ore for at least 5 hours each. If you absolutely have to be able to mine more types or mine for longer, then you will need to either go to a place where you store more crystals or have a fleet member supply you with them. I would also like to point out that a strip miner with no crystals in it can mine any type of ore. It is far less efficient than using a mining crystal, but if you really want to clear out a small asteroid that you do not have crystals for, this is always an option.


CCP wants a Hulk to be a fleet ship. A fleet ship flies in a fleet. When a fleet of Hulks shoots an asteroid that takes hours to mine solo then it doesn't take hours to mine it takes minutes. A Large Gravimetric Complex that would take 34 man hours to clear ends up being less then 4 when you put 10 hulks on it. Suddenly only the beefiest asteroids in the plex take more then 10 - 20 minutes to pop.

_________________________________

I mine in 0.0 and I am not happy with cargo holds for the Hulk... Empire dwellers could care less cause they only normally get 4 roid types. The added need to micro manage is purely aimed at 0.0 pilots and is beyond annoying. There is no useful game mechanic or role specific need for it other then another stat that distinguishes a Hulk from a Mackinaw.

The fact the Hulk has high yields and a cargo hold that can only carry one cycle means it has always been a fleet ship. CCP changes to Exhumers have not change that fact. Forcing 0.0 pilots not willing to fly a skiff in to the micro management of crystals, especially for multi-boxers, is rather disrespectful to 0.0 miners and industry pilots in general.

Nothing would change about the Covetor or Hulk requiring fleet support if it was also capable of carrying a full set of crystals.

______________________________

Playing with fits for standard ore:

Skiff 4,448.48 m3 per cycle
Hulk 5,602.95 m3 per cycle

Setup was t2 strips, t2 crystals, 2x t2 mining yield upgrades, 5% yield implanton the pilot, and fleet booster with mindlink.

20% yield drop for switching to a Skiff... Why would I do this? To save on the need to macro manage mining crystals?

____________________________

For some reason you can fit standard mining crystals in to a deep core strip miner witch is weird, but you cant fit a mercoxit crystal into a strip miner II.

Fitting Screenshot of a Skiff with Deepcore Strip Miner II and a Arkonor Mining Crystal II loaded
____________________________
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#376 - 2012-08-09 00:11:27 UTC
Sigras wrote:
because one cargo rig isnt enough for you? assuming you're mining in a hulk which is what youve been whining about all this time, each cargo rig will allow you to fit one extra set of crystals . . . is it really worth buying another ship so you can mine one additional type of ore at a time?


Since I have 10 hulks, I have no need to buy extra's, just working out setups for my 3 mining toons.

I do like my crystal options (so maybe I am stubborn, old, cranky and set in my ways), so 3 hulks are rigged for cargo, 3 will be rigged for tank/mercoxit and 3 for ice/tank.

It may turn out that I just end up using the mercoxit ship for most ore mining, but when I have to hit multiple rocks, the cargo rigs are going to be the way to go I think.

Some have had cargo rigs in the past, others I never had a real need to fit for tank, as the rats get dealt with in a timely fashion.

So I am changing some of the macs for tank and the skiffs not sure if I will use them but will play with them a bit, cause they certainly are beasts now.

Mos7Wan7ed
Hardcore Industries
#377 - 2012-08-09 00:17:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed
Jake Rivers wrote:
Sigras wrote:
because one cargo rig isnt enough for you? assuming you're mining in a hulk which is what youve been whining about all this time, each cargo rig will allow you to fit one extra set of crystals . . . is it really worth buying another ship so you can mine one additional type of ore at a time?


Since I have 10 hulks, I have no need to buy extra's, just working out setups for my 3 mining toons.

I do like my crystal options (so maybe I am stubborn, old, cranky and set in my ways), so 3 hulks are rigged for cargo, 3 will be rigged for tank/mercoxit and 3 for ice/tank.

It may turn out that I just end up using the mercoxit ship for most ore mining, but when I have to hit multiple rocks, the cargo rigs are going to be the way to go I think.

Some have had cargo rigs in the past, others I never had a real need to fit for tank, as the rats get dealt with in a timely fashion.

So I am changing some of the macs for tank and the skiffs not sure if I will use them but will play with them a bit, cause they certainly are beasts now.



They are forcing players to take compromise that reduced yield and that's not how it should be. You should be able to rig for tank or for mercoxit yield and not be forced to rig for cargo to eek out enough space for a few more sets of crystals. You should not be forced into considering going to a skiff and take a 20% reduction in overall yield just to deal with the situation either.

Hulks can still fit a faction\deep space tank and perma-tank any NPC spawn out there including drones. Unless you are mining in empire that is all you will ever need.
Artemus Dak
RED SUN RISING
#378 - 2012-08-09 00:47:19 UTC
Regarding the mining barge changes The millions of isk spent on "cargo optimization rigs" are now useless. They were bought to increase ore amount capability, not to make more cargo space. And of course they can't be removed without destroying them. The amount of ore I can haul with my Hulk is half of what it was before ! But I have lots of cargo space I don't need.
Mos7Wan7ed
Hardcore Industries
#379 - 2012-08-09 00:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed
Artemus Dak wrote:
Regarding the mining barge changes The millions of isk spent on "cargo optimization rigs" are now useless. They were bought to increase ore amount capability, not to make more cargo space. And of course they can't be removed without destroying them. The amount of ore I can haul with my Hulk is half of what it was before ! But I have lots of cargo space I don't need.


Wait to remove them. CCP is making changes to ship fits that when done may allow you to unfit rigs. Read the UI changes talked about in the CSM minutes. Changes posted in there are scheduled for winter expansion.
Uthgaard
Because ISK
#380 - 2012-08-09 00:51:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Uthgaard
One needs to consider the point at which a change goes from tuning and balance, and crosses over into the realm of different design. The amount of tank on a barge has typically been an irrelevant factor in the decision to steal a ship's ore. In particular this is less of a factor when the ship is no longer capable of holding more than a single cycle. Simply put, no one attacks a barge for isk.
While the decision to reduce the tank available on certain ships may have been made with certain intended results, the consequences of that decision have not been carefully evaluated. Barges are now being suicide ganked in high sec for no purpose other than their destruction, since the cost of doing so has been reduced to the point of triviality.
As I said initially, this becomes a design change when the allure of mining in high sec (low, steady, relatively low risk income) is altered to the extent that an individual who had invested in the skills to pursue that goal based on those factors will regret that decision, and newcomers with that goal in mind would not choose to mine.
There is never any shortage of trolls who prefer to prance around ivory towers with holier-than-thou mocking tones, telling individuals the idealistic 'shoulds'. They should expect this, they should do that.
However fine these statements sound while being trumpeted out of the ivory towers, they are limited to theory. In practice, this will lead to the abandonment of mining as a profession by many who were hit by the unforeseen consequences of the balancing (that was an effective role redesign); and the lack of new miners entering the mining profession.
Ultimately this will have a butterfly effect and result in a dramatic increase in ore prices, and the cancellation of accounts of those who are now skeptical of investing considerable time and money into future goals in EVE.