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EVE Online: Inferno 1.2 to be deployed on August 8

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Lord Vyper
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#481 - 2012-07-31 02:18:14 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
You can call me an aggressive debater that responds personal to personal attacks, but that is about it.


Your argument is invalid but I don't frequent the forums enough to carry on with you. +1 epeen points to you. Everyone else who has read your numerous posts will draw their conclusions. Don't ever presume you have a clue as to what enlisted military life is. You enlist live the life then you get the right to an opinion otherwise your answer should be "I don't know" and your lips close tightly. Many other things could be said but would only continue this endless cycle.

Anyway this convo is not the purpose of this thread so were done.





Hulk ore bay could be increased to hold at least 3 cycles of ICE (9000 m3) since this seems to be a very large concern from people. Also perhaps increasing the cargo hold to 500 m3 for crystal storage. my 2 cents.
Jonuts
The Arrow Project
#482 - 2012-07-31 02:53:38 UTC
Kirin Intarca wrote:

The flaming these forums give to the Devs sickens me. The work that goes into even a small patch like locking pinned windows. Is many man hours of programmers behind a desk operating on coffee, spending a lot of time away from their families. Just to make us, the players, a little more happy about our game.


/sigh. They do it for a PAY CHECK. I wonder how many dev's would show up to work if they didn't get paid? And the flaming is because they tried to fix what wasn't broken, and broke the **** out of it. Since they out of hand ignored all reasonable feedback, we stopped being reasonable.

CCP Explorer wrote:
Some of these changes are live on SiSi, others are still only on CCP Punkturis' computer (CCP Optimal is on paternity leave so Punkturis is temporarily stepping in to make those changes).


That, oddly, fills me with a measure of of hope. HUZZAH! Hopefully that isn't just blind optimism turning me into a fool. I hope Punkturis isn't going to make me go to her office and give her the most devastating puppy dog eyes I can pull off >.>

CCP Arrow wrote:
We have been moving more towards having a separate Settings tab located in the window / interface itself that the settings are affecting. That way all options available in that Settings tab are for the window / interface it resides in only. The Esc Menu should preferably be mostly for global settings that affect the whole client.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't such customization options be in a separate menu so they aren't taking up screen space on every window? Moving all the options (and there should be a LARGE number of options involved with your current incarnation of an inventory) to the window itself just sounds wasteful. You can't make it customizable to any notable degree without drowning us in clutter.




ANYWAYS! Any word on returning right click access and neocom shortcuts? Such a better method of using the inventory than the tree ever will be.
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#483 - 2012-07-31 06:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Callidus Dux
CCP Arrow wrote:
Callidus Dux wrote:
CCP Arrow wrote:

The 'Shift' Setting discussion is to get a better idea of what solves the problem for most. In this case, having a separate 'Shift' setting that only applies to the Inventory would be optimal.


Yeah! You have hit it! Shift+click is for me just a problem for the inventory. All other SHift+Clicks are acceptable and can stay as it was till 22.05.2012.


So with the setting turned on, these things would work without holding Shift:

  • Clicking on the Cargo button in the HUD, would open up a new secondary cargo window.
  • Double-click on wreck in Overview, would open up a new secondary cargo window.
  • Double clicking on the name of a tab in the Index tree of the Inventory, would open up the content of that tab in a new secondary inventory window.


Is this accurate for how the setting would function?

This would change the behavior of double-click in the index tree, when the setting is turned off, double-click would expand the tree (if there is one) when double-clicking on the name of a tab in the index tree.

With it turned on however, it opens up the content of the tab in a new secondary inventory window. That means that if it has a sub-tree, the user would need to click on the sub-tree arrow to collapse it. Would that be acceptable?


Hm.. CCP Arrow you have to know that I do not like to use the tree view. My proposal would be to set this checkbox to be able to open new windows as default without the need of a tree view, if possible. I mean doubleclicks at ships in stations, wrecks in space, station containers in my station hangar etc. Simple all thinks, associated to the inventory, open in a new window. I would like to be able to turn off / hide the tree view complete but be able to open new windows via doubleclick at the responding icons again.
I do not use the integrated filters to search for any assets. I use named containers. But now it is a little bit weird to navigate through them and back.
I have no idea what should be the behavior of this "AutoShift" if you click at the tree. Because I do not like the tree very much. If you just implement the option to open new windows via doubleclick I do not need to use the tree anymore. I would simple doublecklick again to open seperate windows again. That would be enough for me. I do not need more options. Smile
I could drag & drop things around between my two windows and I would be happy again.

I am not an native english speaking person. So I have to say sorry for some strange wordings. What?

Addition: OK I think you know what I mean...
CCP Arrow wrote:
Olga Ivanovna wrote:
Yes! But also: Double-click on container (not only wreck) in Overview, would open up a new secondary cargo window.


Yes, that would work as well, everything that currently needs holding in the Shift key to open up a secondary window would do so with this Settings option.
Olga Ivanovna
Doomheim
#484 - 2012-07-31 10:39:52 UTC
Also please: Double-click my own ship in space should open the cargo hold!

Right now it's a hassle... if I open my inventory in space it's the Uni. Inv that opens, not the cargo hold window (the window I configured and positioned earlier when I was docked).
CCP Arrow
C C P
C C P Alliance
#485 - 2012-07-31 11:14:21 UTC
Olga Ivanovna wrote:
Also please: Double-click my own ship in space should open the cargo hold!

Right now it's a hassle... if I open my inventory in space it's the Uni. Inv that opens, not the cargo hold window (the window I configured and positioned earlier when I was docked).


Currently on TQ, if you hold the Shift key while Double-clicking your own ship you will open up a secondary inventory window which should be as you configured it before, if you however do not hold Shift, you open up the primary inventory window (Unified Inventory) which does also persist, but only in the location of the primary window, and not the cargo hold that you expected.

So this does currently work, if you open up a secondary type window, but that only happens by holding in the Shift key.. So this setting that we are adding will make this the primary behavior, so there would not be a need for holding the Shift key to get the secondary windows.

CCP Arrow   |   Director of User Experience   |   EVE Online   |   @CCP_Arrow

Lord Helghast
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
#486 - 2012-07-31 12:59:28 UTC
CCP Arrow wrote:
Olga Ivanovna wrote:
Also please: Double-click my own ship in space should open the cargo hold!

Right now it's a hassle... if I open my inventory in space it's the Uni. Inv that opens, not the cargo hold window (the window I configured and positioned earlier when I was docked).


Currently on TQ, if you hold the Shift key while Double-clicking your own ship you will open up a secondary inventory window which should be as you configured it before, if you however do not hold Shift, you open up the primary inventory window (Unified Inventory) which does also persist, but only in the location of the primary window, and not the cargo hold that you expected.

So this does currently work, if you open up a secondary type window, but that only happens by holding in the Shift key.. So this setting that we are adding will make this the primary behavior, so there would not be a need for holding the Shift key to get the secondary windows.


Silly question here arrow...

Has CCP considered adding some sort of differentiating character to the "primary" inventory window, as it can get a bit confusing, even a small icon or something to just denote "hey i'm the the primary window", or leave the primary window as is, and the secondary windows add a small "hey i'm a secondary window" icon or something.
Lord Helghast
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
#487 - 2012-07-31 13:02:41 UTC
Jonuts wrote:

CCP Arrow wrote:
We have been moving more towards having a separate Settings tab located in the window / interface itself that the settings are affecting. That way all options available in that Settings tab are for the window / interface it resides in only. The Esc Menu should preferably be mostly for global settings that affect the whole client.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't such customization options be in a separate menu so they aren't taking up screen space on every window? Moving all the options (and there should be a LARGE number of options involved with your current incarnation of an inventory) to the window itself just sounds wasteful. You can't make it customizable to any notable degree without drowning us in clutter.


I like this, as long as the "tab/popup botton" is small and consisten, like a little wrench in the corner of said window that toggles the settings mode / popup whatever... And not a giant tab strip across the top of the damn window lol... just add a small wrench next to the minimize/maximize or something.
CCP Arrow
C C P
C C P Alliance
#488 - 2012-07-31 13:21:41 UTC
Lord Helghast wrote:
CCP Arrow wrote:
Olga Ivanovna wrote:
Also please: Double-click my own ship in space should open the cargo hold!

Right now it's a hassle... if I open my inventory in space it's the Uni. Inv that opens, not the cargo hold window (the window I configured and positioned earlier when I was docked).


Currently on TQ, if you hold the Shift key while Double-clicking your own ship you will open up a secondary inventory window which should be as you configured it before, if you however do not hold Shift, you open up the primary inventory window (Unified Inventory) which does also persist, but only in the location of the primary window, and not the cargo hold that you expected.

So this does currently work, if you open up a secondary type window, but that only happens by holding in the Shift key.. So this setting that we are adding will make this the primary behavior, so there would not be a need for holding the Shift key to get the secondary windows.


Silly question here arrow...

Has CCP considered adding some sort of differentiating character to the "primary" inventory window, as it can get a bit confusing, even a small icon or something to just denote "hey i'm the the primary window", or leave the primary window as is, and the secondary windows add a small "hey i'm a secondary window" icon or something.


Currently the difference is that all secondary windows open up with the Index Tree minimized. If users keep the primary with the Index Tree visible, they will always know if they are opening a primary or secondary window.

CCP Arrow   |   Director of User Experience   |   EVE Online   |   @CCP_Arrow

Morugnir
Negotiatores Aeter
#489 - 2012-07-31 13:45:00 UTC
http://s2.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2012/07/284d639d3f1fd2182c0a5fc745838f8f.jpg
Translate from russian:
From now they looks like...
Crush me totaly!

Let the butthurt flow through you...

Olga Ivanovna
Doomheim
#490 - 2012-07-31 14:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Olga Ivanovna
CCP Arrow wrote:
Olga Ivanovna wrote:
Also please: Double-click my own ship in space should open the cargo hold!

Right now it's a hassle... if I open my inventory in space it's the Uni. Inv that opens, not the cargo hold window (the window I configured and positioned earlier when I was docked).


Currently on TQ, if you hold the Shift key while Double-clicking your own ship you will open up a secondary inventory window which should be as you configured it before, if you however do not hold Shift, you open up the primary inventory window (Unified Inventory) which does also persist, but only in the location of the primary window, and not the cargo hold that you expected.

So this does currently work, if you open up a secondary type window, but that only happens by holding in the Shift key.. So this setting that we are adding will make this the primary behavior, so there would not be a need for holding the Shift key to get the secondary windows.


Confirmed: But now I can see why I didn't figure it out before... have you tried it yourself? Half of the time I'm double-clicking the ship, it's actually a click into space and the ship goes there. It's important that you click exactly on the right spot. If you single-click the ship first, a marker shows up and shift + double-clicking on it does the trick. Also, it's not possible to open cargo while warping - which it should be.

It shouldn't be this hard. I would also like to see a right-click option on the ship with "open cargo" if it's this tricky to hit exactly with the shift + double-click...
Scaugh
Bank Robbers
#491 - 2012-07-31 14:50:49 UTC
CCP Arrow wrote:
Lord Helghast wrote:
CCP Arrow wrote:
Olga Ivanovna wrote:
Also please: Double-click my own ship in space should open the cargo hold!

Right now it's a hassle... if I open my inventory in space it's the Uni. Inv that opens, not the cargo hold window (the window I configured and positioned earlier when I was docked).


Currently on TQ, if you hold the Shift key while Double-clicking your own ship you will open up a secondary inventory window which should be as you configured it before, if you however do not hold Shift, you open up the primary inventory window (Unified Inventory) which does also persist, but only in the location of the primary window, and not the cargo hold that you expected.

So this does currently work, if you open up a secondary type window, but that only happens by holding in the Shift key.. So this setting that we are adding will make this the primary behavior, so there would not be a need for holding the Shift key to get the secondary windows.


Silly question here arrow...

Has CCP considered adding some sort of differentiating character to the "primary" inventory window, as it can get a bit confusing, even a small icon or something to just denote "hey i'm the the primary window", or leave the primary window as is, and the secondary windows add a small "hey i'm a secondary window" icon or something.


Currently the difference is that all secondary windows open up with the Index Tree minimized. If users keep the primary with the Index Tree visible, they will always know if they are opening a primary or secondary window.


I don't use the tree AT ALL... I just want to know what is classed as a secondary window and how and from where it is opened.
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries
SONS of BANE
#492 - 2012-07-31 15:44:59 UTC
CCP Arrow wrote:
With it turned on however, it opens up the content of the tab in a new secondary inventory window. That means that if it has a sub-tree, the user would need to click on the sub-tree arrow to collapse it. Would that be acceptable?


Yes, I didn't know I could double-click to expand it to begin with.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#493 - 2012-07-31 16:06:52 UTC
CCP Arrow, I was wondering if you could also add the ability to open Ships Hangar and Items Hangar directly from the neocom in a secondary window?

Reason I am asking for this is to bring one of the old functionalities back (where you had items hangar and ships hangar just above the undock icon) This way the people who still dislike the new inventory have the option to never see it... (win win for everyone)

I really think the removal of these shortcuts was one of the major issues (besides the removal of right click shortcuts on ships)
When you remove something that is used by almost everyone, people become annoyed and angry :) so adding back these will help alot!... I will basicly not have anything to complain about in the new Unified Inventory then...

TL;DR
Give us back ships and items hangar shortcuts on the neocom, (while still keeping Inventory shortcut) and make these open as secondary windows.

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Resgo
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#494 - 2012-07-31 16:34:35 UTC
CCP Arrow And while he's talking about abilities while right clicking on ships could we please please please get the ability to remotely save ship fits from inventory. It's impossible to link a fit for a ship that someone did not link to you or in which you cannot which is pretty silly.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#495 - 2012-07-31 16:41:29 UTC
what if we have two windows open with the tree view expanded?

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

OlRotGut
#496 - 2012-07-31 17:04:12 UTC
Siyis Rholh wrote:
The inferno feature pages are so useless. Every time I go to them (I'm a slow learner, ok) I automatically assume I should click on them for more info... but there isn't any, just another feature page with a picture mildly relevant to the topic and a one sentence article telling us what we already knew from what the link said.

Add more info to them or scrap them because as they are now any 5 minutes spent making a "feature" page is 5 minutes wasted.

If you can't take the time to add info yourself, at least throw in some links to the work people in the community have done, like image galleries for the new Angel ships or datamined ship changes.



I wanted to point out for feedback, that I agree with this poster about the inferno feature pages.

We're eve players; we want real information, details, specifics; the current iteration leaves much to be desired.
CCP Arrow
C C P
C C P Alliance
#497 - 2012-07-31 17:18:16 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
CCP Arrow, I was wondering if you could also add the ability to open Ships Hangar and Items Hangar directly from the neocom in a secondary window?


Yes, I want to add it to the Neocom again. Originally the plan was to only have items in the Neocom that could always be there both in station and in space because new users got confused when Items hangar and Ship hangar disappeared from the Neocom on undock. We also got feedback from players not wanting these two buttons being locked at the bottom and so close to the Undock button so we had decided to make them behave like other Neocom buttons, that users could move around in the icons list. However, when we tried that we saw that managing their location was quite tricky when they would disappear from the Neocom Menu on undock, the list would shift making icons below it move upwards and change their position (if users didn't have them at the bottom of the icons list). If users would then change the position of other icons in the Neocom, perhaps put a new Icon at the bottom, knowing where the Items hangar and Ship hangar should appear again on docking was tricky. Some players remember the position of certain Neocom icon instead of the look of the icon itself.

It became something that wasn't trivial to find a graceful and consistent solution to and we thought the shortcuts to open the Ship hangar and Items hangar directly as secondary windows would be sufficient along with the ability to open them from the Unified Inventory, but it was a wrong call and for that I'm sorry.

So, an idea I want to throw out there: If we would add them into the Neocom again, would it be OK if the Items hangar and Ship hangar would be greyed out in the Neocom when they are not accessible? (while in space). That way you can still know where they are located compared to other Neocom icons, but also know that you can't click them at that time.
This would mean that these two icons would behave differently from everything else in the Neocom, so kind of inconsistent, but I'm guessing you would be fine with that?


TL;DR: Users that want to have Items hangar and Ship hangar in the Neocom (even though they disappear (or grey out) on Dock/Undock) should be allowed to do so and it is in our iteration plan to allow players to move them to the Neocom root again.

Until this is fixed you can use Alt-N for Ship hangar and Alt-G for Item hangar to open them up directly as secondary windows, and because they are secondary windows, they remember their state, position, size etc. individually.

CCP Arrow   |   Director of User Experience   |   EVE Online   |   @CCP_Arrow

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
SLYCE Pirates
#498 - 2012-07-31 17:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
CCP Arrow wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
CCP Arrow, I was wondering if you could also add the ability to open Ships Hangar and Items Hangar directly from the neocom in a secondary window?


Yes, I want to add it to the Neocom again. Originally the plan was to only have items in the Neocom that could always be there both in station and in space because new users got confused when Items hangar and Ship hangar disappeared from the Neocom on undock. We also got feedback from players not wanting these two buttons being locked at the bottom and so close to the Undock button so we had decided to make them behave like other Neocom buttons, that users could move around in the icons list. However, when we tried that we saw that managing their location was quite tricky when they would disappear from the Neocom Menu on undock, the list would shift making icons below it move upwards and change their position (if users didn't have them at the bottom of the icons list). If users would then change the position of other icons in the Neocom, perhaps put a new Icon at the bottom, knowing where the Items hangar and Ship hangar should appear again on docking was tricky. Some players remember the position of certain Neocom icon instead of the look of the icon itself.

It became something that wasn't trivial to find a graceful and consistent solution to and we thought the shortcuts to open the Ship hangar and Items hangar directly as secondary windows would be sufficient along with the ability to open them from the Unified Inventory, but it was a wrong call and for that I'm sorry.

So, an idea I want to throw out there: If we would add them into the Neocom again, would it be OK if the Items hangar and Ship hangar would be greyed out in the Neocom when they are not accessible? (while in space). That way you can still know where they are located compared to other Neocom icons, but also know that you can't click them at that time.
This would mean that these two icons would behave differently from everything else in the Neocom, so kind of inconsistent, but I'm guessing you would be fine with that?


TL;DR: Users that want to have Items hangar and Ship hangar in the Neocom (even though they disappear (or grey out) on Dock/Undock) should be allowed to do so and it is in our iteration plan to allow players to move them to the Neocom root again.

Until this is fixed you can use Alt-N for Ship hangar and Alt-G for Item hangar to open them up directly as secondary windows, and because they are secondary windows, they remember their state, position, size etc. individually.



That would work.
Could they disappear if you have the ships and items hanger stuck to the Station Services panel.
Including the option to sticky them to the station services panal as a option for the neocom icon and not having the option hid in the esc window would be pure win.

Any word on when the secondary window icon will be changed and what it icon will look like.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Murashu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#499 - 2012-07-31 17:37:44 UTC
CCP Arrow wrote:

So, an idea I want to throw out there: If we would add them into the Neocom again, would it be OK if the Items hangar and Ship hangar would be greyed out in the Neocom when they are not accessible? (while in space). That way you can still know where they are located compared to other Neocom icons, but also know that you can't click them at that time.
This would mean that these two icons would behave differently from everything else in the Neocom, so kind of inconsistent, but I'm guessing you would be fine with that?


Greying them out would be better than not having them at all. While you are fixing the Neocom, any chance we could get our date back?
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#500 - 2012-07-31 17:40:54 UTC
whats wrong with putting the ships and items button above the undock ? though not as close as last time, a spacer in there would be nice.

putting it back there or having the option to have it back there.
seriously this is all sisi stuff, not tq.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.