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Barge Fairy Tale

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1601 - 2012-07-28 03:28:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Then CCP clearly doesn't follow their own stated intent as exhumers are T2 ships and are therefore supposed to be specialized.
I agree insofar as T1 barges are concerned.

The ganker places an unwritten value on what they're willing to spend, regardless of if they gank for the profit or for the lulz.
This is the trade off and it's different for each person. The fact remains that the higher total cost of a gank, the less gankers there will be. Miners could do this themselves, but they've whined and cried and now CCP is caving and has decided to coddle the hisec carebear masses.

This is probably not so much about specialization (beyond tank, self sustainability and yield being specializations of a type) as it is about addressing a lack of utilization for certain hulls, something they have been advocating since fanfest. The issue also lies in that the exhumers, as specialized evolution of T1 barges, would be expected to retain whatever differentiation the T1 variants have.

Basically if the T1 barges need it to be comparatively relevant, the T2's get it by default.
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1602 - 2012-07-28 03:30:49 UTC
Boxless wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/x7d0o.jpg Just look at that tank. for the tier 1 mining barge.


Excuse me while I theorycraft an hilarious doctrine.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1603 - 2012-07-28 03:53:06 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

No need to be an expert to realise a simple buff to some "pixels" will not and suddenly make bots be smarter.
Thinking or pretending the other way around is just being idiot, paranoid, lacking totally of software knowledge (this is harder than be able to count up to 3) and talking out of an hairy pubbie arse.


Since you're such a smart hairy assed pubbie does buffing the most easily botted profession make botting easier or harder? You haven't explained why the bot argument is a bad one yet either internet security expert who graduated from MIT magna *** laude.

Penalizing bots should not be prioritized over giving non-botting players (AFK or otherwise) wider and more relevant choices.


How exactly does homogenizing mining ships give non-botting players wider more relevant choices? Its like saying you can pick door 1, 2, 3, or n but the same thing is behind each one.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1604 - 2012-07-28 03:56:45 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

No need to be an expert to realise a simple buff to some "pixels" will not and suddenly make bots be smarter.
Thinking or pretending the other way around is just being idiot, paranoid, lacking totally of software knowledge (this is harder than be able to count up to 3) and talking out of an hairy pubbie arse.


Since you're such a smart hairy assed pubbie does buffing the most easily botted profession make botting easier or harder? You haven't explained why the bot argument is a bad one yet either internet security expert who graduated from MIT magna *** laude.

Penalizing bots should not be prioritized over giving non-botting players (AFK or otherwise) wider and more relevant choices.


How exactly does homogenizing mining ships give non-botting players wider more relevant choices? Its like saying you can pick door 1, 2, 3, or n but the same thing is behind each one.

I wasn't aware that considerable differences in tank yield and hold were the same thing behind each one.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1605 - 2012-07-28 03:57:56 UTC
rodyas wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

No need to be an expert to realise a simple buff to some "pixels" will not and suddenly make bots be smarter.
Thinking or pretending the other way around is just being idiot, paranoid, lacking totally of software knowledge (this is harder than be able to count up to 3) and talking out of an hairy pubbie arse.


Since you're such a smart hairy assed pubbie does buffing the most easily botted profession make botting easier or harder? You haven't explained why the bot argument is a bad one yet either internet security expert who graduated from MIT magna *** laude.


Its mostly, cause we don't care about the bots. We want to mine, not worry about bots. You should pick up mining, would close off some of that free time you have to worry about bots so much.


You are incredibly stupid, bots make the game worse for everyone.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1606 - 2012-07-28 04:00:00 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

No need to be an expert to realise a simple buff to some "pixels" will not and suddenly make bots be smarter.
Thinking or pretending the other way around is just being idiot, paranoid, lacking totally of software knowledge (this is harder than be able to count up to 3) and talking out of an hairy pubbie arse.


Since you're such a smart hairy assed pubbie does buffing the most easily botted profession make botting easier or harder? You haven't explained why the bot argument is a bad one yet either internet security expert who graduated from MIT magna *** laude.

Penalizing bots should not be prioritized over giving non-botting players (AFK or otherwise) wider and more relevant choices.


How exactly does homogenizing mining ships give non-botting players wider more relevant choices? Its like saying you can pick door 1, 2, 3, or n but the same thing is behind each one.

I wasn't aware that considerable differences in tank yield and hold were the same thing behind each one.


Except for there isn't considerable differences in any of those. The mac/hulk/proc/skiff have it all already, look at the first 5 or so pages of the thread for the math on it.

E: I'm feeling generous so here's the math shamelessly stolen from the S&I forum.

Ship - Strips * modifiers = effective # of strip mining modules

Hulk (no MLUs) - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Hulk (1x MLUs) - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) * 1.09 = 4.3245
Hulk (2x MLUs) - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) * 1.09 * 1.09 = 4.7137


Mackinaw (No MLUs) - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
Mackinaw (1x MLUs) - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) * 1.09 = 3.4335
Mackinaw (2x MLUs) - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) * 1.09 * 1.09 = 3.7425
Mackinaw (3x MLUs) - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) * 1.09 * 1.09 = 4.0793


Skiff (No MLUs) - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15
Skiff (1x MLUs) - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 * 1.09 = 3.4335
Skiff (2x MLUs) - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 * 1.09 * 1.09 = 3.7425


Covetor - 3 strips * 1.2 (barge V) = 3.6
Retriever - 2 strips * 1.5 (role bonus) = 3 strips
Procurer - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) = 3 strips

Very similar yields, similar tanks with the skiff/proc being tankiest, and similar holds with the mack having the biggest.

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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#1607 - 2012-07-28 04:24:31 UTC
^You should cut down on the time recruiting and add more time to reading the barge changes. That is some nice number, but the cargo holds are anything but similiar. As for tanks, the macks and retrievers are decent, the proc is too much propably, but who cares.

Its not as beautiful though these changes as you had hoped for (as well as me hoping for better as well), but its not as bad as you are saying it is either.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1608 - 2012-07-28 04:26:54 UTC
rodyas wrote:
^You should cut down on the time recruiting and add more time to reading the barge changes. That is some nice number, but the cargo holds are anything but similiar. As for tanks, the macks and retrievers are decent, the proc is too much propably, but who cares.

Its not as beautiful though these changes as you had hoped for (as well as me hoping for better as well), but its not as bad as you are saying it is either.


Post the numbers then prove your point.

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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#1609 - 2012-07-28 04:30:16 UTC
Hulk gets like what, 7k for ore hold compared to mack 30k or so?

For someone who hates bots so much, surely you would know what barge they would pick to bot in.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1610 - 2012-07-28 04:31:38 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Hulk gets like what, 7k for ore hold compared to mack 30k or so?

For someone who hates bots so much, surely you would know what barge they would pick to bot in.



Post the numbers then prove your point.

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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#1611 - 2012-07-28 04:33:05 UTC
Not gonna, don't have a bot to do that with.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1612 - 2012-07-28 04:34:15 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Not gonna, don't have a bot to do that with.


Post the numbers then prove your point.

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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#1613 - 2012-07-28 04:36:30 UTC
Fine, the numbers are, ............1.........2..........3..........4..........and 5.

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Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1614 - 2012-07-28 04:37:53 UTC
Oh, just what we needed, another miner crying about... WAIT, WHAT THE **** IS THIS???
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#1615 - 2012-07-28 04:42:15 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
rodyas wrote:
Not gonna, don't have a bot to do that with.


Post the numbers then prove your point.


I forgot to prove my point after posting the numbers. The point is, that you only brought up mining yeild. And yes they are vastly the same. Which is glorious. The other glorius thing is that the mack get an ore hold the size of a jet can. That is the part you do not believe in. Also proc gets alot more armor, but who really cares, besides the happy go lucky cyno people.

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nomlet
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1616 - 2012-07-28 04:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: nomlet
Maybe it would be easier to swallow if the ships themselves had a battleship hull instead of being a cruiser class hull.

EDIT: Then leave the tankability to fitting. Those miners who didnt tank before still wont tank.
As a miner, the ore hold is stupid. I think letting darwin allow people to sacrifice tank for a higher yield was just.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1617 - 2012-07-28 04:45:04 UTC
rodyas wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
rodyas wrote:
Not gonna, don't have a bot to do that with.


Post the numbers then prove your point.


I forgot to prove my point after posting the numbers. The point is, that you only brought up mining yeild. And yes they are vastly the same. Which is glorious. The other glorius thing is that the mack get an ore hold the size of a jet can. That is the part you do not believe in. Also proc gets alot more armor, but who really cares, besides the happy go lucky cyno people.


You know I ask for you to provide some simple data so that you can prove that they are significantly different and you can't seem to do that. I even went to the trouble to post a set of data that shows in yield that they are not significantly different. I'm just not going to bother anymore.

Before:
http://imgur.com/xOKRp
After:
http://imgur.com/lqp8t

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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#1618 - 2012-07-28 04:50:34 UTC
^I have always agreed with the numbers you posted. But there are just more numbers then yeild.

I mostly brought it up, since you said all barges were the same, since they mine the same amount. Which I disagreed with.

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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#1619 - 2012-07-28 04:54:48 UTC
nomlet wrote:
Maybe it would be easier to swallow if the ships themselves had a battleship hull instead of being a cruiser class hull.

EDIT: Then leave the tankability to fitting. Those miners who didnt tank before still wont tank.
As a miner, the ore hold is stupid. I think letting darwin allow people to sacrifice tank for a higher yield was just.


You must only mine in fleets then, or perhaps mulit-accounts. The ore hold is nothing to sneeze at so easily. You sound more like a tank then a miner. Since apperently Darwin says it is normal for miners not to mine. That is what nature indended here. Also normal for police, not to police. Normal for writers not to write. O Darwin what a genius.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1620 - 2012-07-28 05:15:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Going from initial stats:

HP: Shield/Armor/Hull

Hulk: 2500/2300/2700 < Between cruiser and BC lvl shield w/ 4 mid slots
Mackinaw: 4000/3700/4300 < Ferox level shield w/ 4 mids
Skiff: 6500/5500/6000 < Shield values similar to a Scorpion w/ 5 mids

Similar fitting constraints, but the higher base HP of the smaller ships ensures that the benefits are proportionally greater from skills and resist mods, widening the gap. Also add to that the fact of not needing additional miners to count against fitting costs for the smaller ships.

Cargo/Ore bay
Hulk: 500/7500
Mackinaw: 350/25000 (+10% ore hold per mining barge skill level, so an automatic 37.5k by the tome you can board the ship)
Skiff: 350 / 17500

The skiff can hold more than twice that of a hulk, and the mack 5 times as much as a hulk including bonuses necessary to train the ship. These are significant differences rivaling those of many T1 hauler line upgrades proportionally.

Edit: All that said I think we're being rather premature as these numbers reek of unbalanced, non-final seed values, though they give a good indication of the intended direction and quite possibly proportional benefits of each hulls feature attribute.