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EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion

 
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Ancillary Shield Booster use should be nerfed

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Author
fpshacker
Alpha Republic - Transcenders of Space and Time
Solyaris Chtonium
#61 - 2012-07-22 18:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: fpshacker
ASBs aren't the problem; Sleipnirs are. They benefit far too much from the ASB. Sleipnirs are too awesome compared to other command ships. They are fast, have monster tanks, good dps and are easy to fit in terms of grid/cpu.

The controlled AT environment works to make sleipnirs OP. Before the ASB was added they were great ships in the AT and were very commonly used, but now they have been blown completley out of proportion with how well they synergize with the ASB.
The Bazzalisk
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-07-22 18:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: The Bazzalisk
Grath Telkin wrote:

Anything else you attribute to the fight is arbitrary and of our own creation.
There's a reason I didn't specifically state Maelstroms in my OP - because I've barely (if at all) seen them used this tournament. Vargur and Sleipnir will get t2 resists, and Cyclones are just powerful BC support because of how effective they are with the ASBs.

My point is - the Sleipnir tanked for at least 45 seconds under the 3 Proteuses and the Sleipnir had no fleet behind it. Now think about the Sleipnir having two others to apply some damage to the Proteuses. Now add a logi into the equation to keep the Sleipnirs alive while they reload. At least 1, maybe 2 Proteuses will die before the first Sleipnir goes down.

If the Sleipnirs go and **** an Oneiros first and then come back to the Proteus, the Proteuses have no logi and they are just waiting to be killed. If the Scimitar dies, the Sleipnirs can still hold their own for a significant amount of time because of the ASBs and t2 resists.
ovenproofjet
Gallifrey Industries
#63 - 2012-07-22 18:08:01 UTC
I'd argue its one of the best mods CCP has come up with. In reality it just acts as a shield extender that just gives you your shield power in bursts
Lexa Hellfury
Perkone
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-07-22 18:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexa Hellfury
I really don't understand why CCP thought adding more tank to the game was a good idea. People keep talking about how it's a buff to solo/small gang (<5) PvP, which is not the case at all. It limits solo PvP/small gang PvP horribly. If you try to PvP in non-ASB setups, do you know what your targets are? Other non-ASB ships. It's not quite so pronounced in ATX because of the single ASB, but on TQ where double ASB is the current FoTM you cannot engage an ASB setup with a non-ASB setup.

Hell, a double ASB Myrm with a 3 slot tank tanks twice as much as a triple rep Myrm with a six slot tank and the Myrm gets a bonus to armor tanking. Anybody who thinks this is adding options to the game is a goddamn retard.

Edit: Triple rep Myrm actually requires 8 slots if you count cap boosters.
The Bazzalisk
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-07-22 18:11:09 UTC  |  Edited by: The Bazzalisk
ovenproofjet wrote:
I'd argue its one of the best mods CCP has come up with. In reality it just acts as a shield extender that just gives you your shield power in bursts
Which when used on a Sleipnir will give you over 15k extra HP in total. When taking resists into account, the dps on you significantly decreases - the same in calculations as your tank value significantly increasing. I would probably say you get about an extra 40k EHP - which you can use every 60 seconds after a reload - during which time your logi pilot can probably cover your back enough to stop you from dying.
Lugalzagezi666
#66 - 2012-07-22 18:13:55 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

What the hell are you even talking about, what does a 90%web have to do with a single rep vindi beating a dual xl asb maelstrom?

Ok guys, who is going to tell him about that angular velocity, sig radius and tracking stuff? Lol

The Bazzalisk wrote:
...

Dont bother mate.
If he wanted to post a fair example, he would be comparing mael and hype... but you know, that would lead only to one thing - that hype needs 7 slots (2x lar, 2x eanm, dc, 2 cap boosters) to get the same tank as xlasb mael can do with 4 (dc, invul, 2x xlasb). Not counting being neutproof and getting more tank per cap.

This ofc does not match with his "point of view", so he will just keep repeating, that asbs are ok, because highest dps pirate battleship can kill asb fitted tech 1 battleship.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2012-07-22 18:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Lexa Hellfury wrote:
I really don't understand why CCP thought adding more tank to the game was a good idea. People keep talking about how it's a buff to solo/small gang (<5) PvP, which is not the case at all. It limits solo PvP/small gang PvP horribly. If you try to PvP in non-ASB setups, do you know what your targets are? Other non-ASB ships. It's not quite so pronounced in ATX because of the single ASB, but on TQ where double ASB is the current FoTM you cannot engage an ASB setup with a non-ASB setup.

Hell, a double ASB Myrm with a 3 slot tank tanks twice as much as a triple rep Myrm with a six slot tank and the Myrm gets a bonus to armor tanking. Anybody who thinks this is adding options to the game is a goddamn retard.


It's a balance blunder as big as the nano era, just more boring. And yea, eventually the charges run out. In the nano era, if you didn't fit for speed you could not compete in solo/small gang. I think ASB will result in the ASB era - if you don't fit ASBs you cannot expect to be competitive in solo/small gang.
Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#68 - 2012-07-22 18:25:37 UTC
fpshacker wrote:
ASBs aren't the problem; Sleipnirs are. They benefit far too much from the ASB. Sleipnirs are too awesome compared to other command ships. They are fast, have monster tanks, good dps and are easy to fit in terms of grid/cpu.

The controlled AT environment works to make sleipnirs OP. Before the ASB was added they were great ships in the AT and were very commonly used, but now they have been blown completley out of proportion with how well they synergize with the ASB.


- said fpshacker before going back to couch, sitting down heavily, and once more thinking about how well he'd have done with his sleipnir had he not been kicked out for cheating.
ShenanigansBus
Light Red Unicorns
#69 - 2012-07-22 18:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ShenanigansBus
Before crying nerf remove the drool drip pan, close mouth and breath through nose... Now that you look like you're capable of coherent thought, observe how the teams that lost with it were beaten. It's a new module and it requires different tactics on effectively countering it. Exploiting its weaknesses and not playing into its strength is how you win. This one ain't as simple as approaching and trying to overwhelm it with DPS. Are they really good? Yes. Are they impervious? If they were you wouldn't see teams running anything else.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#70 - 2012-07-22 18:32:06 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
It offers a load of flexibility which I think makes it pretty damn awesome in terms of getting different setups.

obviously you don't have to nerf them into uselessness.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2012-07-22 18:33:04 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

What the hell are you even talking about, what does a 90%web have to do with a single rep vindi beating a dual xl asb maelstrom?

Ok guys, who is going to tell him about that angular velocity, sig radius and tracking stuff? Lol

.


Hey dumbass, we're talking about 2 bs duking it out, those two factors dont really come into play when dealing with 2 bs standing toe to toe using close range weapons, hope this helps.


In fact at that range you come into negative tracking so standing perfectly still is your best bet.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

fpshacker
Alpha Republic - Transcenders of Space and Time
Solyaris Chtonium
#72 - 2012-07-22 18:35:29 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

What the hell are you even talking about, what does a 90%web have to do with a single rep vindi beating a dual xl asb maelstrom?

Ok guys, who is going to tell him about that angular velocity, sig radius and tracking stuff? Lol

.


Hey dumbass, we're talking about 2 bs duking it out, those two factors dont really come into play when dealing with 2 bs standing toe to toe using close range weapons, hope this helps.


In fact at that range you come into negative tracking so standing perfectly still is your best bet.


yo you insulting this man because you don't understand angular displacement?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#73 - 2012-07-22 18:39:34 UTC
fpshacker wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

What the hell are you even talking about, what does a 90%web have to do with a single rep vindi beating a dual xl asb maelstrom?

Ok guys, who is going to tell him about that angular velocity, sig radius and tracking stuff? Lol

.


Hey dumbass, we're talking about 2 bs duking it out, those two factors dont really come into play when dealing with 2 bs standing toe to toe using close range weapons, hope this helps.


In fact at that range you come into negative tracking so standing perfectly still is your best bet.


yo you insulting this man because you don't understand angular displacement?


im reminded of an episode of that 70's show:


No Eric, I'm insulting him because he's a dumbass

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

fpshacker
Alpha Republic - Transcenders of Space and Time
Solyaris Chtonium
#74 - 2012-07-22 18:41:58 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
fpshacker wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

What the hell are you even talking about, what does a 90%web have to do with a single rep vindi beating a dual xl asb maelstrom?

Ok guys, who is going to tell him about that angular velocity, sig radius and tracking stuff? Lol

.


Hey dumbass, we're talking about 2 bs duking it out, those two factors dont really come into play when dealing with 2 bs standing toe to toe using close range weapons, hope this helps.


In fact at that range you come into negative tracking so standing perfectly still is your best bet.


yo you insulting this man because you don't understand angular displacement?


im reminded of an episode of that 70's show:


No Eric, I'm insulting him because he's a dumbass


+1 because that was a good episode
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#75 - 2012-07-22 18:49:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanth
ASB should not be removed, what should be done is to tone it down to armor reps (MAR + LAR) levels.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Lugalzagezi666
#76 - 2012-07-22 18:50:49 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Hey dumbass, we're talking about 2 bs duking it out, those two factors dont really come into play when dealing with 2 bs standing toe to toe using close range weapons, hope this helps.
In fact at that range you come into negative tracking so standing perfectly still is your best bet.


Hey, dumbass. Vindi has like 50m/s advantage, 100m sig radius advantage and 0.15-0.20 ang/s tracking advantage. Assuming mael has web fittted - most dont. Thats not counting using 5th mid of vindi for something like tracking disruptor... (actually fun fact - xlasb in that mid without any resist mods bar dc tanks as much dps as lar with 2x eanms). And this will make noticeable difference in quality of hits...
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#77 - 2012-07-22 19:15:46 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Hey dumbass, we're talking about 2 bs duking it out, those two factors dont really come into play when dealing with 2 bs standing toe to toe using close range weapons, hope this helps.
In fact at that range you come into negative tracking so standing perfectly still is your best bet.


Hey, dumbass. Vindi has like 50m/s advantage, 100m sig radius advantage and 0.15-0.20 ang/s tracking advantage. Assuming mael has web fittted - most dont. Thats not counting using 5th mid of vindi for something like tracking disruptor... (actually fun fact - xlasb in that mid without any resist mods bar dc tanks as much dps as lar with 2x eanms). And this will make noticeable difference in quality of hits...


You're one of those people who argues from crazy land then i see, while ignoring the obvious

Who cares how much faster one is than the other or what the sig is? Do you not understand that those 2 ships both get the most service from their guns by sitting nearly dead still blasting on one another? And then you break into crazy dual tanked fits and tracking disrupting Vindis...


Oh, and yea, the now standard Dual XL ASB Mael fit has a web, not that it really matters.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2012-07-22 19:32:12 UTC
how do you beat an ASB sliep team: Field 7800 dps.



and hope they don't have 2 bhaalgorns....












that kite the hell out of you.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Lugalzagezi666
#79 - 2012-07-22 20:00:05 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Who cares how much faster one is than the other or what the sig is? Do you not understand that those 2 ships both get the most service from their guns by sitting nearly dead still blasting on one another? And then you break into crazy dual tanked fits and tracking disrupting Vindis...

Oh, and yea, the now standard Dual XL ASB Mael fit has a web, not that it really matters.


You does not seem to understand the best position for vindi is to use its superior tracking, lower sig radius and speed advantage to mitigate as much dps as possible while not losing its own dps. Not just sitting still like a tard (but I agree that even hitting ctrl + space is great pvp achievment for some people).

And yes, I made a crazy point - xl asb with just damage control tanks the same amount of dps as lar with dc and 2x eanm (while needed to be powered by heavy cap booster and vulnerable to neuts).

Funny how no one uses active repped vindis in tornament when they are so strong. Teams with them would have it so easy considering dual asb tanks are not permitted.Lol
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-07-22 22:12:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dez Affinity
Lexa Hellfury wrote:
I really don't understand why CCP thought adding more tank to the game was a good idea. People keep talking about how it's a buff to solo/small gang (<5) PvP, which is not the case at all. It limits solo PvP/small gang PvP horribly. If you try to PvP in non-ASB setups, do you know what your targets are? Other non-ASB ships. It's not quite so pronounced in ATX because of the single ASB, but on TQ where double ASB is the current FoTM you cannot engage an ASB setup with a non-ASB setup.

Hell, a double ASB Myrm with a 3 slot tank tanks twice as much as a triple rep Myrm with a six slot tank and the Myrm gets a bonus to armor tanking. Anybody who thinks this is adding options to the game is a goddamn retard.

Edit: Triple rep Myrm actually requires 8 slots if you count cap boosters.


Quoting this.

ASBs fit easier than regular shield boosters and boost twice as much, are immune to neuts, if your ship has capless guns, you don't even really need to fit a cap booster at all.

I for one will abuse ASBs until they get nerfed.