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Incarna/WiS Disappointment

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Author
CCP Bayesian
#101 - 2012-06-28 15:39:30 UTC
Azula Borgia wrote:
I really like how passionate and excited CCP Bayesian is about the work he is doing.

This is all very good to hear.


I've been making games for seven years in a variety of companies and the last few months of prototyping work have been some of the most energizing I've ever done. I really want to make this into a reality for EVE and really want to make it well.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#102 - 2012-06-28 15:44:38 UTC
VanDam wrote:
I was also taking a break when players had a 'hissy fit' following Incarna. I am glad they did and couldn't care less if WiS was never touched again, it doesn't interest me at all.

Maybe you should ask yourself this. If that many players protested over the planned game progression at the time to cause CCP to completely change an 18 month+ development strategy, what makes you think it has any place in this game?

I reckon the vast majority of people, given the outrage and negative reaction following Incarna, do not even have the WiS environment turned on. I know I don't, and it isn't because I can't run it either.


The "hissy fit" was much less over having WiS at all and much more over how little WiS we got for the opportunity cost we paid. Sending back a badly cooked steak doesn't make one a vegetarian...

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

RAP ACTION HERO
#103 - 2012-06-28 15:49:00 UTC  |  Edited by: RAP ACTION HERO
Hey Team Avatar that's pretty cool what you guys are prototyping. I now hope for and anticipate wis as long as it is not just a bunch of dudes dressing up emoting each other /dance in a station. I mean you guys release very little info so I've been assuming the worst scenario for months.

vitoc erryday

Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#104 - 2012-06-28 15:53:19 UTC
You mean CCP let a handfull of loud mouth babies who were actually only mad because they couldn't get mommy to buy a monocle convince them to allow their game to stagnate and die?

When this game dies another will fill it's place, one with modern graphics, so I am not losing sleep over it.

This is the exact same mistake EA made with UO, they let their current customers talk them out of anything that was not "more of the same" till they had almost no new customers.

Then the current customers left.

I'm an American, English is my second language...

Atrocitus Parallax
Doomheim
#105 - 2012-06-28 15:56:50 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
I must ask that, Please for the love of God. Keep the true nature of EvE.

And let us shoot our own team members in the backSmile


This has already been happening in our playtests. Blink


You stop it now, your just toying with us, this is just cruel, but in a good way, like waiting ti your wife goes to sleep then secretly reading her copy of 50 shades.

FYI please don't stop...we've been waiting for so...so long, please, just another crumpet, just another log on the ole fire, we promise we won't tell anyone, if you can't trust a MMORPG game forum then who can you? Twisted
Oberine Noriepa
#106 - 2012-06-28 16:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Oberine Noriepa
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Azula Borgia wrote:
I really like how passionate and excited CCP Bayesian is about the work he is doing.

This is all very good to hear.


I've been making games for seven years in a variety of companies and the last few months of prototyping work have been some of the most energizing I've ever done. I really want to make this into a reality for EVE and really want to make it well.

This is a little unrelated, but are there any plans to improve Carbon visuals through DX11?

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2012-06-28 16:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
CCP t0rfifrans wrote:
While we await the dev blog, I can point to this unofficial shaky cam video of me showing off Team Avatar's prototype of exploration in abandoned structures as it was 2 months ago while I was at a player event in Moscow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajnxq65D220

It has changed somewhat, it has a fancy avatar now, more gameplay and a UI that resembles EVE more. Also, showing it off single player doesn't really tell you much because it's a very co-op experience.

edit:
Yes and it has turrets now, guns, hi-medium and low slot modules.


Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Smile

I like the idea of customizing characters kind of like we do with ships. You could create a new player market dedicated to character customization where people could replace their bones with alloys so they could carry more artifacts, infuse their skill with nano-machines to help reduce the effects of radiation, ect.

I'd be interested to hear your initial thoughts on what happens when two opposite groups are in the same structure. Lets say group A (3 pilots) enter the structure and then group B (10 pilots) later arrives at that same site. Group B might send in 5 of their pilots to kill the group A avatars in the structure while the remaining 5 pilots form group B wait outside...

Lets say group A manege to kill the 5 enemy avatars in the structure with them. Have you considered letting avatars take control of the structures defenses (like pos guns or maybe give them control of sleeper drones) so that they have some means of effectively fighting the guys outside?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-06-28 16:17:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Sending back a badly cooked steak doesn't make one a vegetarian...


GFT! Big smile
CCP Solomon
C C P
C C P Alliance
#109 - 2012-06-28 16:21:00 UTC
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Azula Borgia wrote:
I really like how passionate and excited CCP Bayesian is about the work he is doing.

This is all very good to hear.


I've been making games for seven years in a variety of companies and the last few months of prototyping work have been some of the most energizing I've ever done. I really want to make this into a reality for EVE and really want to make it well.

This is a little unrelated, but are there any plans to improve Carbon visuals through DX11?


There is an ongoing R & D project relating to DX11, no dates yet though.

CCP Solomon | Technical Producer | EVE Online @RoryAbbott

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2012-06-28 16:22:23 UTC
Ginseng Jita wrote:
Vaal Erit wrote:
By a 'bunch of players' you mean tens of thousands of accounts which caused the first ever slump in subs in EVEs existence that lost CCP millions of dollars and a significant decrease in CCP staff which is why we now have to wait over a week for a GM response.

Sorry but the players have spoken: WIS is cool, but not at the expense of the rest of EVE.

I dunno where the OP is getting his information, but it is a fact that WIS lost CCP millions of dollars while expansions focused on improving the base game and the war themed expansion gained CCP those millions back.


More like a couple of hundred with a **** ton of alt accounts.


NO, INCARNA had zero effect on eve in space. The Space game and the WiS game had zero connection. Even after station view was brought back, the subs droped another 20,000. People WANT Walking in stations, and when they made every single station minmatar with bad lighting and 80$ clothing items, we QUIT.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2012-06-28 16:24:37 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Azula Borgia wrote:
I really like how passionate and excited CCP Bayesian is about the work he is doing.

This is all very good to hear.


I've been making games for seven years in a variety of companies and the last few months of prototyping work have been some of the most energizing I've ever done. I really want to make this into a reality for EVE and really want to make it well.


Thank you ;_; I played WiS at fanfest 5 years ago. It's been really crazy waiting so long, just to get incarna. If you can take what little was put out, and refactor it into a real game, not second life, then you will be my hero.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-06-28 16:33:54 UTC
That prototype was quite interesting but I hope it won't be limited to groups and there is a "soloable" version. Not everyone has the time to spend forming a group for this kind of thing.

Also I hope its not just a thing for null and low but that it will be also available in high sec. Otherwise there will be a lot of disappointed people who have been waiting for WiS and then suddenly find the WiS content that is put in is unreachable for them.
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Oberine Noriepa
#113 - 2012-06-28 16:42:02 UTC
CCP Solomon wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Azula Borgia wrote:
I really like how passionate and excited CCP Bayesian is about the work he is doing.

This is all very good to hear.


I've been making games for seven years in a variety of companies and the last few months of prototyping work have been some of the most energizing I've ever done. I really want to make this into a reality for EVE and really want to make it well.

This is a little unrelated, but are there any plans to improve Carbon visuals through DX11?


There is an ongoing R & D project relating to DX11, no dates yet though.

Thanks for answering this. I'm really looking forward to seeing what you guys can do with DX11 features. Smile

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2012-06-28 16:45:38 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Gary Goat wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:

Just to be totally clear this has so far been prototype work and we need management support to move further on into the production of it. That lots of players and developers are actually quite excited about it is obviously a big plus point in that regard.



I think i remember this concept at one of the fanfests right? Tying it into the exploration system so you can actually dock at them nice looking stations you find and explore the inside in search of artifacts or an ancient computer to hack. It opens up so many possibilites and i'm extremely excited that this is being prototyped.

It does raise a lot of questions about how it will work in game though. What happens to a capsuleer if we die outside of our pod? What happens to our ship if we die inside a station where its docked? etc etc. I guess its way to early to think about these kind of things though.

Looking forward to the blog


This years fanfest trailer has something very similar to the idea we've been exploring. It's something of a sci-fi staple after all!

We have thought about some of those questions but ultimately have concentrated on getting the gameplay concept on a much more boots on the ground level.


I want to take part in flying up to a raided ammar freighter, dock with it to save a group of slaves left behind locked somewhere in the ship which is full of rooms with exposed hull, parts of it falling apart, areas of the ship still working where we can hack the computer to figure out which way to go, oh and i want to fight a slaver hound, becuase those things are badass

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Pipa Porto
#115 - 2012-06-28 16:51:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
MotherMoon wrote:
Ginseng Jita wrote:
Vaal Erit wrote:
By a 'bunch of players' you mean tens of thousands of accounts which caused the first ever slump in subs in EVEs existence that lost CCP millions of dollars and a significant decrease in CCP staff which is why we now have to wait over a week for a GM response.

Sorry but the players have spoken: WIS is cool, but not at the expense of the rest of EVE.

I dunno where the OP is getting his information, but it is a fact that WIS lost CCP millions of dollars while expansions focused on improving the base game and the war themed expansion gained CCP those millions back.


More like a couple of hundred with a **** ton of alt accounts.


NO, INCARNA had zero effect on eve in space. The Space game and the WiS game had zero connection. Even after station view was brought back, the subs droped another 20,000. People WANT Walking in stations, and when they made every single station minmatar with bad lighting and 80$ clothing items, we QUIT.


That is the wrong lesson to take from last summer. The effect that Incarna had on EvE was causing CCP to neglect EvE, using Dev time (paid for by Subs) to make items that we'd have to pay for again. The single station and price point were bovine icing on the fecal cake that was Incarna.

At the time, I think there was 1 team at CCP working on EvE because of Incarna.

CCP is taking the right lesson from last summer, by the way. If the summer was really about being pro-Incarna, you'd expect a continued hemorrhage through last winter rather than the start of a recovery.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2012-06-28 17:04:18 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

CCP is taking the right lesson from last summer, by the way. If the summer was really about being pro-Incarna, you'd expect a continued hemorrhage through last winter rather than the start of a recovery.


Not to turn this thread into an argument but... You talk at if Incarna is some conscious entity controlling the CCP staff. The problems caused were down to miss management and a failure to deliver on plans.
Boober Fraggle
#117 - 2012-06-28 17:13:58 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Supposedly there is a "Team Avatar" (5 people) working on something, and a Dev blog about it that is finished, but its publishing got delayed by the UI mess.

The few Dev comments we have gotten is it will involve cooperative game play in a hostile environment. Something like we saw in one of the trailers with people in space suits exploring ruins. I presume part of the "cooperative" part is having protection so your ship does not get stolen while you are walking about.


This is still en-route and I'm currently trying to unclog the pipes that are holding the dev blog up. It's been delayed for so long now I'm going to update the pictures on it to something that's more representative of the current state of things!

You're correct though the gameplay we've been prototyping is based around cooperative gameplay in a hazardous environment. You'd be cooperating both in space and in the structure you were all walking around in though and there would still be the potential for conflict with other people in the structures you are exploring.

We're pretty excited about what we've come up with internally.


I dont know how to say this without sounding condescending, so please accept that, and if you can, answer 2 questions I have.

Did you work for CCP in 2008?

I ask because that was the first time I was told "soon" on WiS.

I understand that you are working on the project currently, so I accept your enthusiasm.

So I have to ask, in all seriousness, would you be exited about it if the tables were turned and you had been waiting 4 years?

I sincerely desire a response to that, but thank you for your time either way.
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Doomheim
#118 - 2012-06-28 17:16:36 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
You mean CCP let a handfull of loud mouth babies who were actually only mad because they couldn't get mommy to buy a monocle convince them to allow their game to stagnate and die?

When this game dies another will fill it's place, one with modern graphics, so I am not losing sleep over it.

This is the exact same mistake EA made with UO, they let their current customers talk them out of anything that was not "more of the same" till they had almost no new customers.

Then the current customers left.


Yeah, like all the new content EvE gamers needed was RMT for avatar clothing.
Afaik UO died because EA changed it to be a shiny and colorful world safe for unicorns to be, different from what it was before.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#119 - 2012-06-28 17:38:15 UTC
CCP t0rfifrans wrote:
While we await the dev blog, I can point to this unofficial shaky cam video of me showing off Team Avatar's prototype of exploration in abandoned structures as it was 2 months ago while I was at a player event in Moscow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajnxq65D220

It has changed somewhat, it has a fancy avatar now, more gameplay and a UI that resembles EVE more. Also, showing it off single player doesn't really tell you much because it's a very co-op experience.

edit:
Yes and it has turrets now, guns, hi-medium and low slot modules.


I actually like this idea a lot. I like exploration in general and EVE could use more different types of co-operative PvE activities. Add to that the possiblity of meeting competing individuals and groups and it's starting to sound really good with a sweet PvP frosting. As a nice bonus the plot and dialogue in that demo was better than in prometheus.
Pipa Porto
#120 - 2012-06-28 17:45:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Rek Seven wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

CCP is taking the right lesson from last summer, by the way. If the summer was really about being pro-Incarna, you'd expect a continued hemorrhage through last winter rather than the start of a recovery.


Not to turn this thread into an argument but... You talk at if Incarna is some conscious entity controlling the CCP staff. The problems caused were down to miss management and a failure to deliver on plans.


If you don't like the agency I gave Incarna, replacing most instances of the word with "the Incarna project" should work ok.

I talk about Incarna as separate from EvE because until we can stab each other with knives in it, it's not EvE. Luckily, it looks like that glorious day is coming.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto