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New dev blog: Next Unified Inventory Update

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Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#381 - 2012-06-07 18:36:19 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
you wnat me to pick 4 corp hangers out of 10 and find 28 divisions of the 70 using a list. are you smoking crack?. go try it and come back to me.

Spot on!

I am glad i got out of the WH before the patch lol.
Untill a single corp hanger with only the tabs for that hanger showing gets implemented I will keep asking for it.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#382 - 2012-06-07 18:41:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Haifisch Zahne
REMOVED TO PROTEST CCP's Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP").
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#383 - 2012-06-07 18:44:58 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Salpun wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
Looting is STILL broken. Open a container in space, separate window (shift-click since dragging container off UI doesn't work), open another loot jetcan, press Loot ALL, window closes, and any further containers opened only open in main UI window. This broken behavior is still present after your June 7 "we saved up all the goodies and you won't have another for weeks" grand patch.

I will not re-subscribe for ONE MONTH for EACH WEEK that UI is broken.


If you opened all the containers in separate windows, they should maintain in separate windows. I have just done this so let me know exact steps if it's not working for you. Bug report would be best but here is fine in a pinch.

Its the steps exactly as stated verse old functionality. Old fuctionality would stack jet cans and wrecks with a tab showing what each was in the same window. Now you have to drag each new container/ wreck off the main inventory window to your looting window by your overview. We want a window we can lock which works this way "if I access wreck/container it opens here not in the main window.


Shift click the overview - opens in new window. You have the option to stack or handle new windows and the game will remember this by type (e.g. wreck, cargo container). Also in tree view, if you open them all, you can just rattle Loot All til they're all gone.


why can't we have a shift toggle? : (

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Maul555
Xen Investments
#384 - 2012-06-07 18:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Maul555
CCP Goliath wrote:


Shift click the overview - opens in new window. You have the option to stack or handle new windows and the game will remember this by type (e.g. wreck, cargo container). Also in tree view, if you open them all, you can just rattle Loot All til they're all gone.



That is only a temporary work around. When are you going to fix it? Shift+click open on wrecks is a bad implementation... and spamming the loot all button on the main window is also a bad implementation. Often people have limited space and must pick and choose. Also sometimes illegal items are in wrecks and must be avoided. I need mutiple windows, and to not have to worry about them being hijacked. And I need them to be as small as possible, so no tree please. Please fix all this shift+click stuff, replacing it entirely with our old functionality. Shift+click fumbles up my already very busy hands while doing major looting... I like to get a bunch of wrecks on my tractor beams, then have them all open in their own space, tabbed up... so I can then just hit loot all, or have the option of dragging some stuff out, then closing... all of this while setting new directions, targeting new wrecks, working the tractors on new ones, and the salvagers on old ones... and trying not to miss anything so I don't have a rouge can to deal with. all while spamming the d-scan for hostiles...

1 unified inventory window, scaled large enough to be useful with the tree open, takes up more space, and is harder to use than having 4 small windows up in the same place.
Maul555
Xen Investments
#385 - 2012-06-07 18:58:33 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
CCP Goliath,

Can you guys set the "open" button at the top of the overview to shift-doubleclick as its default action?

At minimum, it would give players a one-click, treeless workaround for opening wrecks in a new window.

That's how they opened before.

YK



Come on... THIS!
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#386 - 2012-06-07 19:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Yonis Kador
So the tree-view "isn't going anywhere" and shift-clickageddon was created as a workaround for people who don't like squinting and scrolling through dozens of entries on the tree? I can barely read that thing.

Opening the station hangar, ship hangar, and all 7 divisions of a corp hangar previously required three single clicks.
Now it takes 10 shift doubleclicks?
Same efficiency?

Until sufficiently iterated, industrialists have to deal with shift-doubleclicking and pvp'ers get a streamlined system perfect for their needs? Seems reasonable.

Why are we shift-clicking at all? Where were single click and doubleclick when these functions were being assigned. On break? Get my keyboard out of this mess.

On day one of the design process, why was tethering players to the shift key a better choice than the mouse-only right click menus and single-click neocom buttons that were efficient and convenient? I've enjoyed EVE's gameplay being mouse-heavy for a very long time. It's a shame to see that go.

Since shift-doubleclicking 1000x a night just isn't a realistic option for me, that means my only recourse is to learn to love the tree. A tree I can barely read, that I constantly open the wrong divisions of, where I drop things into the wrong hangars frequently, and that has turned my game into a windows filing system. That tree. I can't even find my things using the tree half the time and when I do quickly, I still get a feeling of momentary accomplishment.

With so much to love, it could be a while.

Edit:

Took a break.

Had that ice cream, chocolate. (with hazlenut biscotti)


TL,DR: I look forward to the next patch on June 19.

Yonis Kador
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#387 - 2012-06-07 19:10:07 UTC
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
I just tested SHIFT-RIGHT CLICK. It "works" *laughs hysterically at the idea this is working*.

Oh, now, we ALSO have SHIFT-DOUBLE CLICK?!

CLICK, SHIFT-CLICK, SHIFT-DOUBLE CLICK, RIGHT CLICK, SHIFT-RIGHT CLICK.

Let me guess, SHIFT-RIGHT DOUBLE CLICK is next?!


It could be worse. We could have to press ALT with the neck, power button on computer + Shift reset and extract an USB key. Like those ancient Amiga easter eggs.

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Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#388 - 2012-06-07 19:10:19 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
functionality is not the same with this new ui as with the old.

4 corp hangers at a pos.

old system, right clcik 4 times all 28 hangers in 4 stacked windows. change to corp division 1, click each corp hanger wondow and you can see whats in all 4 hangers corp division 1 with 4 click, rinse repeat with all 4 corp hangers, division after division

new system shift click 28 times. 28 windows, now try to search through 4 corp hanger division 1's... go on, try.
now try division 2, 3 4, 5, 6 and 7...

oh it gets better, warp away( all 28 windows become your cargo window and dont auto close), come back.... do it again and again and again... i bet you jsut give up as its a nightmare

why have you removed right click menus that actually have a function ccp?


Ha.. ha.. ha... welcome to my world.
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#389 - 2012-06-07 19:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Haifisch Zahne
REMOVED TO PROTEST CCP's Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP").
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#390 - 2012-06-07 19:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
CCP Goliath wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
functionality is not the same with this new ui as with the old.

4 corp hangers at a pos.

old system, right clcik 4 times all 28 hangers in 4 stacked windows. change to corp division 1, click each corp hanger wondow and you can see whats in all 4 hangers corp division 1 with 4 click, rinse repeat with all 4 corp hangers, division after division

new system shift click 28 times. 28 windows, now try to search through 4 corp hanger division 1's... go on, try.
now try division 2, 3 4, 5, 6 and 7...

oh it gets better, warp away( all 28 windows become your cargo window and dont auto close), come back.... do it again and again and again... i bet you jsut give up as its a nightmare

why have you removed right click menus that actually have a function ccp?


I might be reading this wrong, but I don't see why you aren't using the tree view for this - it gives you the same functionality as before, but in one window (or 4 if you prefer one for each hangar) and you just 1 click to each division.


Because you don't want the tree view undocked by default ever, for anything. It wastes screen space and only allows for completely trivial shortcuts in very limited scenarios that only apply to very beginner players. Also the tree view takes too much space in both width and height and you have to scroll through it and resize the whole window to fit. It's quite fubar. When you have a POS with 6 equipment assembly arrays, 4 ship assembly arrays, 2 component assembly arrays and some labs with BPCs, you don't have any screen space for the ridiculous tree view that is completely unusable in small windows. And you want all positions saved for all and each single one of these assembly arrays to streamline operations (can't stress enough, saved means persistently saved, really persistently, as persistently as it gets, like in a Swiss bank).

Or make the tree view adaptive at least to the current subcontainer type, so that the tree view for an equipment assembly array only displays, what? thats right things that only apply to that partiicular container duh, which is what? Corp divisions thats right. Uh, oh, sounds just like what we had before doesn't it?

For the love of god, reconsider roll back.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#391 - 2012-06-07 19:20:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
CCP Goliath wrote:

Which I assume you mean to be that you do not want to use the tree view at all on basic principle? The team are doing everything they can to make this of minimal impact to you, but the tree view itself is not going anywhere so I hope that you can come to terms with it in some way.


There's a reason why MANY softwares have moved the hell away from tree views and implemented tabs.

It's called basic, simple sense.

Writings are horizontal (western ones). That is, they take lots of horizontal real estate.

Tree views make already large windows unnecessarily larger by putting horizontal information to the left of the window.
Tabs make large windows functional because they take small vertical real estate and zero horizontal real estate.

The very fact you are going against all the accepted modern UI designs and find it good enough to "not going anywhere" is worrysome.

You are implementing outdated and unpractical concepts. The day the UI is bug fee, it will still be conceptually wrong.

See, many times I wanted to send CCP my curriculum but with decision makers taking this kind of directions and then sticking to them, I would feel embarassed. I would probably be bound to some "you won't publicly state your superiors borked grand time" legal agreement as well so I'd be put together the same people who can think these kinds of designs.

No way.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Meytal
Doomheim
#392 - 2012-06-07 19:20:39 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
It could be worse. We could have to press ALT with the neck, power button on computer + Shift reset and extract an USB key. Like those ancient Amiga easter eggs.

Good heavens don't give them any ideas!
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#393 - 2012-06-07 19:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
CCP Goliath wrote:
Par'Gellen wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
To open a container via overview you double click it under the old system. Now that opens it in the tree view. If you want it open in a separate window, shift double click it.
Swap that around and some of us would be happy. Why does this abominiation of a UI try to take control of everything I do unless I hold up the holy cross (shift key)?


The default behaviour is now to use the tree view. For people that are not a fan of this, shift click is implemented to enable them to use separate windows. If you like I will ask the team if mapping these as shortcuts that individual users can customise is an option? (Note, even if this is possible, it will not change the default behaviour)


Yes that would help a ton. Every single function should map to individual shortcut. Repeated shortcut application to open/close as usual. Real, tested window persistence please. People will customize for their specific usage. All less frequently used functions like fuel bay, corp divisions 1-6 (preferrably those would stack in the same window by default i think but with undock option), ship maint bay, ore hold, drone bay, etc etc
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#394 - 2012-06-07 19:29:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Haifisch Zahne
REMOVED TO PROTEST CCP's Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP").
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#395 - 2012-06-07 19:32:30 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:

Which I assume you mean to be that you do not want to use the tree view at all on basic principle? The team are doing everything they can to make this of minimal impact to you, but the tree view itself is not going anywhere so I hope that you can come to terms with it in some way.


There's a reason why MANY softwares have moved the hell away from tree views and implemented tabs.

It's called basic, simple sense.

Writings are horizontal (western ones). That is, they take lots of horizontal real estate.

Tree views make already large windows unnecessarily larger by putting horizontal information to the left of the window.
Tabs make large windows functional because they take small vertical real estate and zero horizontal real estate.

The very fact you are going against all the accepted modern UI designs and find it good enough to "not going anywhere" is worrysome.

You are implementing outdated and unpractical concepts. The day the UI is bug fee, it will still be conceptually wrong.

See, many times I wanted to send CCP my curriculum but with decision makers taking this kind of directions and then sticking to them, I would feel embarassed. I would probably be bound to some "you won't publicly state your superiors borked grand time" legal agreement as well so I'd be put together the same people who can think these kinds of designs.

No way.



Yes. Tabs are better than trees for reasons outlined. Good reasoning here, worth paying good attention to this one.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#396 - 2012-06-07 19:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
To be totally honest, at this stage I'd probably just be happy with being able to shift-click on the new inventory button on the Neocom to simply open up a new seperate instance of the inventory.

At least there'd be an easy way to have multiple windows then.

Sometimes CCP, less isn't more.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#397 - 2012-06-07 19:39:04 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:

Which I assume you mean to be that you do not want to use the tree view at all on basic principle? The team are doing everything they can to make this of minimal impact to you, but the tree view itself is not going anywhere so I hope that you can come to terms with it in some way.


its the basic reduction in functionality thats the problem, plus the introduction of many extra steps to get the same things done thats the problem.

i have come to terms with you blindly ignoring mass negative feed back. and pushing on with broken design.

16 June 2012 - 1:07 pm (in 8 days), thats when my 3 indy accounts run out, may they rest in peace.

OMG when can i get a pic here
mrpapageorgio
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#398 - 2012-06-07 19:39:16 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
RasKarpas wrote:
ZaBob wrote:


Developers ALWAYS hate to roll back stuff. Myself included.



This is precisely why it's not the developer's decision. There are control mechanisms for quality developing, which obviously fail time after time.


Yep. This. Good devs and managers need to learn to admit their mistakes and bury their egos. Team/company success should be the driving force always, and customer satisfaction ultimately determines that.


I feel that mistakes have already been admitted, and I don't feel that anyone is really showing ego about this.


I'd like to hear that from CCP Hilmar.
Par'Gellen
#399 - 2012-06-07 19:40:21 UTC
mrpapageorgio wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
RasKarpas wrote:
ZaBob wrote:


Developers ALWAYS hate to roll back stuff. Myself included.



This is precisely why it's not the developer's decision. There are control mechanisms for quality developing, which obviously fail time after time.


Yep. This. Good devs and managers need to learn to admit their mistakes and bury their egos. Team/company success should be the driving force always, and customer satisfaction ultimately determines that.


I feel that mistakes have already been admitted, and I don't feel that anyone is really showing ego about this.


I'd like to hear that from CCP Hilmar.

As would I.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#400 - 2012-06-07 19:51:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Rock Kicker wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Salpun wrote:
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
I seriously hope you are not saying there is a SHIFT-RIGHT CLICK menu vs a RIGHT CLICK menu. Not to mention this inane SHIFT-CLICK nonsense?

Salpun wrote:
Bug report/ missing features. 138040
With out a shift click fuction showing in the right click menu shift click fuctionality is not apperant to open wrecks or cargos, there is no way to open wrecks in a secondary window from the overview.
Wrecks are not show ing up in the index any more if they are in range so you have to open then via a right click menu and then open them via the shift click right click menu.
Opening a second wreck using the shift click fuctionality or right click drop down fuctionality closes the prevousely open window which has a wreck in it. It does not open that wreck in the same window as the prevous wreck.

Shift double click works but is not documented well. Every thing put out by the new devblogs is shift single click


No while all the fuctionality on the new Inventory window is shift single click. All like fuctionality is shift double click when useing the overview. There is not a shift double click line in the overview right click menu or a loot all icon in the right click drop down menu so people do not have to move there mouse a million miles while looting.


Pretty much this. It's the exact same functionality as before, except you hold down shift if you want it in a separate window as oppose to using the tree view.


Except Shift-clicking on a pos array structure, either visually or from the overview does nothing. Shift-double-click causes you to approach the array only. Shift-click (and shift-dbl-click) from the tree on an array either expands or collapses the divisions.

Only way I have found to open multiple inventory windows is to shift-double-click cans I carry in my cargobay. So I get an inventory window for my ship caargo, and then one for each can. Then I have to keep the damn tree active (or expand it out each time) on each one so i can change divisions as I move minz, etc around between arrays to run jobs. I generally have a minimum of 4 windows open at one time when sitting at my tower doing work.

This UI has made working at a pos an absolute PITA.



I think this would actually be very handy to open corp hangars on shift-click for POS structures. With horizontally spaced Tabs, not Tree views for corp divisions. It really wasn't broken. Really it wasn't. It was better, believe it.

Correction - didn't realize i can shift-click on open cargo. Lame still.