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Does the 'PvPers are Sociopaths' argument bother anyone else?

Author
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#81 - 2012-06-06 14:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
I would not call all PvPer sociopaths, but some people who suicide gank to "collect tears", yes their behavior borderlines on sociopathy, it also makes them very sad human beings who should seek out professional counsel.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-06-06 14:13:04 UTC
Sarina Berghil wrote:
There is however a small segment of mostly hi-sec PvP'ers/gankers who seem to be driven mostly by schadenfreude, ...


There's a rather large group that at least portrays themselves to be so motivated.
Lustralis
Doomheim
#83 - 2012-06-06 14:16:30 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:

How about thwacking miners with Darwin's Hammer, because they refuse to evolve. I'm a huge fan of Hulkageddon and the mayhem and chaos it is causing in EVE's Whoville.
Does this make me a sociopath?


The problem with using Darwin's Hammer is you don't know what you're selecting for, only what you're selecting against. For example, CONCORD didn't used to exist in Eve near the very beginning. Darwin's Hammer forced its introduction. And now you rail against the supposed "safety" of High Sec? It's safer because Darwin's Hammer selects thoughts in CCP Developer and Accountant heads, not because it changes the mining population significantly.
Otebski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-06-06 14:17:16 UTC
It never ceases to amaze me why people who apparently dont want to get shot play PvP games. There are dozens of titles on the market which limit PvP to at least consensual activity. EVE is not such a game. It's advertised as harsh and unforgiving.
Calling people sociopaths on grounds of engaging in activity that makes the core of the game is just plain ret......
It's like playing COD and whining that people shoot you when all you want to do is collect ammo.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#85 - 2012-06-06 14:19:24 UTC
Knus'lar wrote:
I see this quite a bit in the rage threads lately. From my perspective, i see a lot of carebears mud flinging, and calling anyone who ganks or does pvp a sociopath. Because apparently only a sociopath would do such a thing. But really, it just seems like a vain attempt at taking the moral high ground.

For real, do some people honestly believe people act the same in game as they do in real life?


If you choose to behave a certain way the location does not change the behavior, virtual or real world, how many of these behavior traits do you see in your behavior? I don't find most griefers to be Glib or Charming, Manipulative and Coning, Check.; Gradiose sense of self, Check.; Pathological Lying, well that varies; Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt, Check; Shallow Emotions, varies; Incapacity for Love, unobserved; Need for Stimulation, Check; Callousness/Lack of Empathy, Check; Poor Behavior Control/ Impulsive nature, Check; Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency, unobserved but wouldn't surprise me; Irresponsibility/Unreliability, Check; Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity, unobserved; Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle, Check; Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility, Check. I'd say griefers hit on 9 out of 15 character traits of a sociopath with some of the none hits being gray areas.

Glibness and Superficial Charm


Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.


Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."


Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.


Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.


Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.


Incapacity for Love


Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.


Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.


Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.


Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.


Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.


Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, **** and sexual acting out of all sorts.


Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.


Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.
Sarina Berghil
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2012-06-06 14:20:45 UTC
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
Sarina Berghil wrote:
There is however a small segment of mostly hi-sec PvP'ers/gankers who seem to be driven mostly by schadenfreude, and some hi-sec dwellers get the wrong impression of PvP because of those. I think thats a shame because it drives people away from better communities and the game in general.

Smacktalk and mocking your opponent is not exclusive to Eve and is a part of many competetive online games.


A few games, and I personally stay clear of those.

There is a distinction between friendly mocking/rivalry and the intent to cause emotional grief.

Lustralis
Doomheim
#87 - 2012-06-06 14:26:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lustralis
Otebski wrote:
It's like playing COD and whining that people shoot you when all you want to do is collect ammo.


Naaaa, it's nothing like that at all. COD is pure FPS isn't it. Like TF 2. There are little social rules even in these games you know, although COD is far worse for people paying attention to them than TF 2 is because TF 2 attracts an *average* older age crowd than COD does. Anyway the point is that in a game like TF 2 pretty much everyone agrees what constitutes anti-social behaviour and players can easily be kicked by admins when they engage in it. Even pubs are relatively well behaved.

When it comes to Eve things are different. It's *possible* to have different groups of people, or different areas of space where what constitutes anti-social or "immoral" behaviour is different. This is where the apparent clash in play-styles comes from. You are convinced you are right and The Other is convinced he is right. This is simply a cultural difference.

The only problem AFAIK is that on this occasion one "culture" has decided it doesn't like the other and is actively trying to grief it out of the game. And it is griefing especially as it generally involves recycled one week old alts, which btw are a bannable exploit, although difficult to petition for various reasons.
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#88 - 2012-06-06 14:27:27 UTC
Lustralis wrote:
Virgil Travis wrote:

It's actually attitudes like this being waved around that has made so many want to gank hulks in the first place and I understand the sentiment so well.


What attitude? Let's face it the reason you want to gank Hulks is for the giggles and to get points in your peer group. It's nothing to do with what The Other is doing in his Hulk. I mean why would you care one little bit what some other guy half way across the game galaxy is doing in his little barge? Just admit it and we can move along and start talking about something more interesting, because these Hulk/Mining threads are getting really boring.


The attitude where people join a game that is primarily based around conflict, competition and never being 100% safe anywhere and then complaining because they lost some space pixels to valid game play and in doing so throwing generalisations about like those in the post I quoted.

It's the fact that that one guy half way across the game galaxy in his little barge has the mindset that he shouldn't be affected by anyone or anything else in the game while he continues to be a part of the game by affecting the economy that is probably the basis for some of the reactions to miners and the like. They don't seem to understand that by logging in they can create ripples within the game, even by simply sitting in their little barge all day and then have the blinkered view that they shouldn't suffer any consequences and be left alone. I say no, if you want to be in EVE, you be prepared to be not left alone, get used to it or don't bother logging in.

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.

Lustralis
Doomheim
#89 - 2012-06-06 14:30:10 UTC
Virgil Travis wrote:

The attitude where people join a game that is primarily based around conflict, competition and never being 100% safe anywhere and then complaining because they lost some space pixels to valid game play


Again, to be clear game-play is invalid if it's performed by recycled one week old alts. Dress it up anyway you like, but that's where most of the butt-hurt is coming from. So all other arguments are kind-of moot here. Behaviour that is petitionable and bannable is what we're mostly talking about.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#90 - 2012-06-06 14:31:08 UTC
People who get pleasure from causing other people misery are sociopaths. That's different than just wanting to PVP, defeart another player, or pad your killboard. There are some people in this game who do really get off on dominating and humiliating somebody else. Call it "collecting tears" or whatever you want. That's being a sociopath, not a game competitor.
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#91 - 2012-06-06 14:37:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Virgil Travis
Lustralis wrote:
Virgil Travis wrote:

The attitude where people join a game that is primarily based around conflict, competition and never being 100% safe anywhere and then complaining because they lost some space pixels to valid game play


Again, to be clear game-play is invalid if it's performed by recycled one week old alts. Dress it up anyway you like, but that's where most of the butt-hurt is coming from. So all other arguments are kind-of moot here. Behaviour that is petitionable and bannable is what we're mostly talking about.


Actually no it's not, I was talking about the attitude that you should be left alone which has nothing to do with what you're talking about at all, so my argument is not moot at all, it's just you trying to change it to suit yourself. I'm not talking about game mechanics at all so if you wish to discuss that fine, but I'm talking about that fact that some people feel they should be allowed to be completely separated from the rest of the game, which is utterly fallacious thinking.

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.

Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#92 - 2012-06-06 14:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ten Bulls
Jalabaster wrote:
I think it is fair to say that most of the people ganking and performing various unsavory space acts would in fact NOT act the same way in real life if things were anonymous.


Anonymity gives people freedom from consequences of their actions

Checkout the "Stanford Prison Experiment" to see how savage we all are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkmQZjZSjk4

EDIT: actually, the Milgrim experiment was the one i was after, 'teachers' willing to give lethal electric shocks to 'students' who makes mistakes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f6LLV3fkXg
Potrondal Morrison
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-06-06 14:41:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Potrondal Morrison
Do people who play Grand Theft Auto all go and steal cars, murder prostitutes and run people down in RL?

That would make them murderers

Do people who play Skyrim kill dragons in RL?

That would make them dragon slayers

And are they?.....................of coarse not.


If your called a sociopath for shooting people for fun in a game that involves shooting people for fun, then i say those who say this:
a) are in the wrong game
b) need to get a grip on reality
c) need to realise that is just roleplaying interwebs spaceships game and not RL

THIS IS A GAME, NOTHING MORE!!!
Horus Ernaga
Doomheim
#94 - 2012-06-06 14:45:02 UTC
Many things that happen in this game no longer make sense to me... well this game and many others. It's getting about the same everywhere, the whole wanting to ruin someones day thing, and other various actions. In a combat situation, in low/null sec or not against a war target, if I am the winner your pod is always free to go. Why? Killing your pod produces no income for me, in fact it slows it down. The guy is going to want to go buy new implants first typically, then buy his new ship, which he has less ISK for due to buying implants. Meaning less valuble loot for me. Miners in low sec? Pay me X amount and I'll leave you alone this time. Pay me Y amount and I'll leave you alone all week/month.Then I hold my end of the bargain. Much better than the scraps they generally drop. I fire on a newbie/badly fit pvp ship, I'll completely stop at hull and tell them to get lost also with a bit of advice as to how they can do better. Why? Later when they come back they just might have better built ship for me to loot.

As for the gankers being sociopaths well, probably not no. Lack of foresight? Logic? In my opinion yes. In some of them something isn't ticking right for sure, the "whole for the tears" thing, but same can be said for some so called "carebears". Then again I doubt many if any of us have ever lost a ship or pod with out getting even the slightest bit irritated. Especially at a inconvenient or unexpected time. During my time as miner if even half the ganking attempts were successful I'd probably go nuts in this game too. Lack of understanding and confusion are major triggers for emotional outbursts. Miners don't understand why you want to pick on them and not actually fight someone. Compounded with the frequency of these attacks it is easy to see why miners are in a outrage.
Widow Cain
#95 - 2012-06-06 14:45:22 UTC
It is a symptom of games where PvE and PvP is tossed together. If your PvPers are farming your PvEers of course they will complain.

Most game designers are smart enough to segregate them, but CCP uses its PvE players as a commodity.

So it is what it is.

OMG You are sooo pixel macho...

Lustralis
Doomheim
#96 - 2012-06-06 14:45:53 UTC
Virgil Travis wrote:

Actually no it's not, I was talking about the attitude that you should be left alone which has nothing to do with what you're talking about at all, so my argument is not moot at all, it's just you trying to change it to suit yourself. I'm not talking about game mechanics at all so if you wish to discuss that fine, but I'm talking about that fact that some people feel they should be allowed to be completely separated from the rest of the game, which is utterly fallacious thinking.


It is moot, because what are you arguing here? If another player wants to be left alone to engage in whatever activity in Sandbox Eve, where ganking his ass is one possible choice of many and by no means compulsory, who are you to say he's "playing it wrong"? It's really none of your business what he does with his time! Why do you even care?

I honestly have no idea where the fun is in doing something like that. If he's in field with 9 other Hulks all called ChingChongChang0x, then yes, I can see the point. But if it's OldeBob and his alt mining Velspar, what is the point? It's just, you know, being an ass for the hell of it.

I have a nephew who likes to be an ass just for the hell of it. He's a lovely lad out of game, but a complete twonk inside of it. I try to teach him a little self-respect and tell him that even though it's a lot of space pixels, there are other people, some of whom suffer from a surfeit of emotion, out there on the other end of the line. He pays no attention. I'm sure that he'll grow out of it.

Anyway, don't get me wrong, suicide ganking is fine if you aren't doing it with recycled alt. It's just called Gameplay. If you are doing it with recycled alt it's totally not fine and is an exploit. I would be interested to know what proportion of ganks are of the latter form. If it's a significant number CCP has a problem.




Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
#97 - 2012-06-06 14:53:15 UTC
Sarina Berghil wrote:
There is a distinction between friendly mocking/rivalry and the intent to cause emotional grief.

Please give an example of what you consider to be smacktalk/mocking/rivalry and what you consider to be a statement designed to cause 'emotional grief'.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#98 - 2012-06-06 14:55:57 UTC
Ten Bulls wrote:
Jalabaster wrote:
I think it is fair to say that most of the people ganking and performing various unsavory space acts would in fact NOT act the same way in real life if things were anonymous.


Anonymity gives people freedom from consequences of their actions

Checkout the "Stanford Prison Experiment" to see how savage we all are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkmQZjZSjk4



Welcome to the player driven sand box. Big smile


Tal

Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#99 - 2012-06-06 14:58:49 UTC
I have had my GF times lately still, mostly on WHs and HS wars, so at least from my point of view, pvp rocks, even tho i often lose. but i enjoy having the adrenaline rush.
Svarek
#100 - 2012-06-06 15:00:06 UTC
Widow Cain wrote:
It is a symptom of games where PvE and PvP is tossed together. If your PvPers are farming your PvEers of course they will complain.

Most game designers are smart enough to segregate them, but CCP uses its PvE players as a commodity.

So it is what it is.


This is really the heart of the issue.
The PvE-ers seclude themselves from the rest of the world of Eve, and yet they're still part of the same world.
PvP-ers see them as fair game, and PvE-ers are obviously distressed because they don't want that.

To be honest, I'd have to side with the PvP-ers on this one, despite being generally more PvE myself. A world without player/player interaction like PvP would be completely flat and false, and the entire aspect of the player-driven world - to which PvP is absolutely vital - is what makes Eve Eve and not some other, generic MMORPG like Star Trek Online.

Whoops.