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You can't take the sky from me

Author
Mathias Hex
#81 - 2012-05-31 21:19:45 UTC
Take my love take my land take me where I cannot stand, I don't care I'm still free they can't take the sky from me...Your post does not do any justice to the title.

I recall one night in a nightclub called the matrix, there I was... Mother of god there I am! Holy f**k.

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2012-05-31 21:23:40 UTC
Again another one bites the dust.

Always saddens me to see these types of threads constantly being posted every day now. This has definitely been the trend for the past couple of years, especially in this year alone. Obviously this is a major problem now due to unbalanced game mechanics being exploited on a large scale which seriously needs to be addressed by CCP asap. If there wasn't a problem, this sub-forum wouldn't be filled with threads about the topic of ganking.


DMC
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#83 - 2012-06-01 05:15:01 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Eve attracts a unique permanent crowd. Those that enjoy the suffering of others (never understood this mentality myself) and those that can be victimized but pick themselves up and keep going. Both groups can be classed as strong personalities. The frothing lunatic psychopath that will kill without remorse and think it's funny and the stalwart law-abiding citizen that will never break no matter what hardships come their way.

These are opposite ends of the spectrum and really the only true core of the long-time playerbase. A good balance is needed between the two groups for the game to be fun for everyone. Unfortunately CCP themselves unbalance the equation by maintaining game mechanics that enourage asshattery and rewarding such activities with praise at fanfests and on the forums etc.
Most people do not fall on the extreme ends of this personality scale and I believe this is why Eve Online has never become a mainstream MMO.


Why did you then choose only those minority groups from the extreme ends, hisec miners and hisec gankers? Contrary to the common delusions, vast majority of EVE players are pretty normal guys who can make a difference between a game and die Endlösung.

As can be seen, hisec miners come and go, their EVE experience is as shallow as it is to the professional gankers. The players who stay like the long-term challenge of EVE, not the grind or griefing aspects.


Quote:
Many of my friends from other MMO's and in real life have tried Eve and hated it. The reason is always the same. Griefing. I try to give them advice and show them how to avoid or minimize it but it's usually too late to reverse their opinion.


Once again, false expectations created by other games ruined their EVE experience. Me and my RL friends who have tried EVE absolutely loved it (two of them valued their RL more, one loves the game but it seems to be too complicated for him) and we've never even heard the word "griefing" before.

If you really get the core idea of EVE, you understand that there is no griefing. Getting blown up and blowing things up is natural for a real MMO focused on intergalactic spaceship violence. "Griefing" implies that one party doesn't understand the nature of the game and becomes sad for losing virtual pixels, and the other party enjoys these tears. Why not suck the loss up like a man, accept it's a part of the game, most often your own mistake and change your operation model to avoid such losses in the future?

This continuous cycle of adaptation is the true lure of EVE, it's challenge and the thing that attracts the core playerbase. People create the evolving world, and people create ways to deal with it. AI can't yet offer this much complexity.

Quote:
Mining in a cruiser and training for weeks to buy and fly a nice shiny barge, only to have it all blown to bits under supported game mechanics is a sure fire formula for making a new person ragequit. 95% of the time they will not be back and I can promise you they do not praise the game to their peers.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8374664 from my first day. (I did a trial in 2009, had to put it on hold due to work) My first thought was "wtf just happened, there was nobody" :D and so I learned about cloaking devices. I was mad, but instead of hiding under my bed to cry, I wanted revenge, and I had to know what to do to avoid that until I grew enough to get my revenge.

Mining in a cruiser for a week is a failure to think.

Quote:
A buddy from work once said it perfectly. "If I have to work that hard just to play the game what's the point?" I had no answer for that, and actually started wondering why I keep playing Eve myself.

Honestly? I don't know.


Do they work hard in life just to get on vacations? I prefer to enjoy my work as well.

Quote:
CCP, I do have a suggestion though that I think would help rebalance the equation without making high sec "safe". Revisit the barges' stats. Maybe double their armor and shields and give them another mid and low slot. Make them more than ore pinatas anyone with a stick can walk up and start smacking around.

Actually, you know what I would LOVE to see that even involves MORE PvP? Barges that can actually defend themselves. If done properly (maybe a defensive-only system of some kind to avoid abuse) how would that be a bad thing?

I'd love to hear some opinions on this.


I'm not against buffing barge stats. 50% more HP spread across hull, armor and shields, one more low slot. Why not? They already have drones, I find that quite enough for defense.

.

Roime
Shiva Furnace
#84 - 2012-06-01 05:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Again another one bites the dust.

Always saddens me to see these types of threads constantly being posted every day now. This has definitely been the trend for the past couple of years, especially in this year alone. Obviously this is a major problem now due to unbalanced game mechanics being exploited on a large scale which seriously needs to be addressed by CCP asap. If there wasn't a problem, this sub-forum wouldn't be filled with threads about the topic of ganking.


DMC


The problem is mismanaging expectations. People coming from other MMOs seem to think they are on a PVE server, where they can happily grind quest after quest, gather materials and craft. It should be made clearer that there is only one server with full PVP rules.

This is a sandbox, if you are unhappy about what others are doing to you, you need to come up with a strategy to avoid the situation, or find a counter strategy.

.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#85 - 2012-06-01 07:05:55 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
I could always look after your stuff and give what didn't blow up back to you if and when you return.




MST3K!!! Took a minute to realize.



OK this degradation of the player base... is it this game in particular, or MMOs in general or...


society?


It's rough out there. Joblessness, tyranny, wars, and in the USA, more women are fatter than ever.

(I had to put something on the end of that but statistically it is true)


Collapsing societies breed assholes. Period.

Now, what does "CCP" mean? It means "Crowd Control Productions". And it just might be a service to the world when internet space pixels are being destroyed instead of cars being keyed, dogs being poisoned, and houses being burned down. Sometimes I wonder if it was planned (and I have the patent for the deluxe grounding strap made for tin foil hats).

Whatever the case, it's global. The world sucks. it's full of people. People play games. They are going to makes those games suck. They at least make it interesting.

Chances are, everybody could enjoy the game if they would stop taking themselves too darned seriously. And I do mean EVERYBODY.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Kylon Parltri
Task Force MK7
#86 - 2012-06-01 07:08:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kylon Parltri
Im still pretty new to eve but everything I have seen indicates that this is one of the better gaming communities. This "degradation" you speak of is happening, but it is far more widespread than you make it sound. It is an undercurrent of general dissatisfaction that can be found from a growing number of malcontents across ALL large gaming communities. I have played many different online games and MMO's in the past few years and the general outrage over just about everything and anything is there and visibly growing.

My theory is that things like F2P, cash shops and RMT has become so pervasive in online games that it is slowly driving consumers insane to the point it is even damaging game communities that do not utilize such measures.
Ludi Burek
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#87 - 2012-06-01 07:27:45 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
You guys could just post a roster instead of making us read the same, tired, one-liners. Posts like this OP attract the same mentally challenged every time. Proof of the challenged part? Read what they say post to post. Same thing every time. What's funny is, they don't remember they already said it. It's a new thought in their minds every time!

What they also fail to realize; we see them IRL every day. Ain't it funny how they all seem to look the same?



In total contrast to all those threads they're replying to? Each and every whine thread is unique and post worthy Lol
Yolanta Geezenstack
GWA Corp
#88 - 2012-06-01 07:51:17 UTC
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
Yes, I agree. Everything was perfect when I was younger, too.


This. It always makes me nervous when people talk about the "good ol' days". Most of the times it's you that has changed, not the environment.

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" (Hesiod, 8th century BC).
Par'Gellen
#89 - 2012-06-01 14:32:55 UTC
Roime wrote:
Some good points. More than the post limit allows me to quote.

I know you do not think so but your responses actually prove my points.

"Why did you then choose only those minority groups from the extreme ends, hisec miners and hisec gankers?"
Because I explained that in the post. Those are the ones that stick around for good. Most of the others do not. Eve is tiny compared to other MMO's. Some of them would close their doors if they had subscription numbers as low as Eve's.

"Once again, false expectations created by other games ruined their EVE experience."
I disagree. Other MMO's have nothing to do with it. If there were no other MMO's on the planet I seriously doubt Eve's subscription numbers would improve. What do you think would happen to them if there was another Eve-like MMO on the market that didn't cater to asshattery? Eve's limited success boils down to the fact that they have no real competition. Internet spaceships is a lot of fun if you can get past the griefing. Many people can't. Find me another MMO like Eve that isn't run by a company that is borderline insane (please!).

"If you really get the core idea of EVE, you understand that there is no griefing."
That is the biggest design flaw of the entire game if you care at all about your income. A defensless new miner getting popped by a veteran in a disposable ship for lulz is not griefing? Maybe not by CCP's standards but pretty much the rest of the MMO world (devs and players alike) disagree.

""Griefing" implies that one party doesn't understand the nature of the game and becomes sad for losing virtual pixels, and the other party enjoys these tears."
You said it. Do you mean this doesn't happen? I've seen it since 2003.

"Why not suck the loss up like a man, accept it's a part of the game, most often your own mistake and change your operation model to avoid such losses in the future?"
I'll use a term from the pro-griefing crowd to explain why. "It is just a game". Most people don't consider being killed repeatedly or having to do research on setups that won't keep them alive anyway much fun. Even a 32k EHP tanked Hulk setup won't keep you alive long enough to run away if the ganker has a partner. This isn't rocket surgery.

"This continuous cycle of adaptation is the true lure of EVE, it's challenge and the thing that attracts the core playerbase. People create the evolving world, and people create ways to deal with it. AI can't yet offer this much complexity."
Here we agree... to a point. PvE could provide those things if it weren't tacked on as an afterthought. A dev once explained how the normal NPC AI works in a post back when Sleepers were being added to the game. It boiled down to "they look for something to shoot and then shoot it until it's dead or they're dead." Sleepers are better but unfortunately you have to expose yourself to WH space to even see them. Incursions are meh and remind me of raiding in other MMO's. There's always a guy in charge that will lose his ever-loving mind over the slightest thing (real or imaginary). There are no real options for the things you mentioned for people that aren't interested in PvP. CCP knows this so they try to trick or force those people into situations that require them to PvP (low/null sec and WH space). This will fail every time because nobody can force anyone to play a game that they do not think is fun. Well.. maybe in China but they have their own server.

"http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8374664 from my first day. (I did a trial in 2009, had to put it on hold due to work) My first thought was "wtf just happened, there was nobody" :D and so I learned about cloaking devices. I was mad, but instead of hiding under my bed to cry, I wanted revenge, and I had to know what to do to avoid that until I grew enough to get my revenge."
Exactly my point. You stayed. Most people don't.

"Mining in a cruiser for a week is a failure to think."
In 2003 I mined for 3 weeks in a Bestower to buy a Thorax. Man, you guys have it easy these days.

"Do they work hard in life just to get on vacations? I prefer to enjoy my work as well."
Yes but you are missing the point. Eve is a game played for enjoyment and therefore matches up to the vacation part, not the work part. Would most people take a vacation from their RL jobs to do something that isn't fun?

"I'm not against buffing barge stats. 50% more HP spread across hull, armor and shields, one more low slot. Why not? They already have drones, I find that quite enough for defense."
Drones are no defense when you are dead before they can reach their target. The griefers have all the advantages. If a miner tries to get proactive about his own defense then he's the one getting the visit from CONCORD. Miners can't formulate an attack that involves CONCORD. Griefers can.

When a plan to kill someone includes the very entity meant to punish it then at best that system is broken and at worst is being explioted.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2012-06-01 14:35:42 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:

When a plan to kill someone includes the very entity meant to punish it then at best that system is broken and at worst is being explioted.

"when a plan takes into account something that is 100% guaranteed to happen it is an indication that something is wrong"

if this is how you plan i can see why you die repeatedly
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#91 - 2012-06-01 14:37:40 UTC
James 315 wrote:
The only people trying to "degrade the community" are the highsec miners who want to remove all risk from their EVE experience and who believe they are entitled to an endless series of buffs and nerfs because they can't fit a hulk properly.


+1 to learning how to fit a hulk properly.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-06-01 14:42:56 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
If there were no other MMO's on the planet I seriously doubt Eve's subscription numbers would improve.


But there is other MMO's on the planet & subscription numbers continue to improve. Every. Single. Year.

Par'Gellen wrote:
What do you think would happen to them if there was another Eve-like MMO on the market that didn't cater to asshattery?


It wouldn't be like EVE if it didn't accept asshattery.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#93 - 2012-06-01 14:43:24 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:

I'll use a term from the pro-griefing crowd to explain why. "It is just a game". Most people don't consider being killed repeatedly or having to do research on setups that won't keep them alive anyway much fun. Even a 32k EHP tanked Hulk setup won't keep you alive long enough to run away if the ganker has a partner. This isn't rocket surgery.

eve is a game where information matters

if you can't be bothered to gather basic information you will lose, repeatedly and painfully

"having to do research" is a basic feature of the game and if it's too hard for you might i suggest a nice game of tic-tac-toe
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-06-01 14:47:36 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Chances are, everybody could enjoy the game if they would stop taking themselves too darned seriously. And I do mean EVERYBODY.





Just for you EVERYBODY KNOWS
Par'Gellen
#95 - 2012-06-01 14:54:58 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
But there is other MMO's on the planet & subscription numbers continue to improve. Every. Single. Year.
True. Some more people feebly trickle in each year I'm sure. Maybe I should have said "improve significantly".

Mallak Azaria wrote:
It wouldn't be like EVE if it didn't accept asshattery.
You said it. Actually I've recently found a game that reminds me a lot of Eve but doesn't cater to asshats. It's called Perpetuum Online. It isn't internet spaceships but it's still quite fun. I've been playing the crap out of it lately.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-06-01 14:59:32 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
But there is other MMO's on the planet & subscription numbers continue to improve. Every. Single. Year.
True. Some more people feebly trickle in each year I'm sure. Maybe I should have said "improve significantly".


CCP seems to be the sort of company that values players who are actually dedicated & enjoy the game, over sheer numbers of people playing. Slow, steady growth is better than an explosion of growth quickly followed by an equally massive slump.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Par'Gellen
#97 - 2012-06-01 16:04:24 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
CCP seems to be the sort of company that values players who are actually dedicated & enjoy the game, over sheer numbers of people playing. Slow, steady growth is better than an explosion of growth quickly followed by an equally massive slump.

That would depend on your viewpoint but I understand what you mean.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#98 - 2012-06-01 20:34:38 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
But there is other MMO's on the planet & subscription numbers continue to improve. Every. Single. Year.
True. Some more people feebly trickle in each year I'm sure. Maybe I should have said "improve significantly".

Define "improve significantly". Eve playerbase could increase by 50% every year and whiny little ***** would still use the "this will bring more people" argument to push their ****** idea of balance.
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-06-01 21:13:33 UTC
Mussaschi wrote:
Pisov viet wrote:
That's real fuckin neato, but I joined the game because of the cuthroats storys about it. I dont care how you're missing the good old days of collective boringne-ZzzzZZzzzZZzzzzzzz


Congratulation, it seems that the lead developers will evolve this game specially to fulfil your needs for cutting throats, even from the back if required. This is your game now.

Sounds cool, thanks a lo-ZzzzzZzzZzzzzzzz
Cheeks For Weeks
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2012-06-03 01:07:51 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
I could always look after your stuff and give what didn't blow up back to you if and when you return.




MST3K!!! Took a minute to realize.



OK this degradation of the player base... is it this game in particular, or MMOs in general or...


society?


It's rough out there. Joblessness, tyranny, wars, and in the USA, more women are fatter than ever.

(I had to put something on the end of that but statistically it is true)


Collapsing societies breed assholes. Period.

Now, what does "CCP" mean? It means "Crowd Control Productions". And it just might be a service to the world when internet space pixels are being destroyed instead of cars being keyed, dogs being poisoned, and houses being burned down. Sometimes I wonder if it was planned (and I have the patent for the deluxe grounding strap made for tin foil hats).

Whatever the case, it's global. The world sucks. it's full of people. People play games. They are going to makes those games suck. They at least make it interesting.

Chances are, everybody could enjoy the game if they would stop taking themselves too darned seriously. And I do mean EVERYBODY.




I live in the city of Philadelphia and i can see where this post is coming from.

Quote:
in the USA, more women are fatter than ever.


Best line.

Took a drive today and saw 12 women along 2 blocks. All hot, flabby steaming POS messes, and all wearing something they shouldn't.


People in this game are quite... meh , but other people can't just play a game and not understand the rules.

Anyone recall a game called RF Online? That game had neutral zones where PVP was open and rampant. It had a "Concord" system where a giant muppet protected miners of the race who won the chip war within a specific map. The problem was that if you rushed enough people into the mines you could effectively kill everyone inside because the muppet could only target one person at a time and his attacks were AOE attacks that grew weaker the further one stood from the center of impact. The "entitled" miners cried foul and it became a bannable offense to treat the game like a sandbox.

Guess where that game is now? Sure as hell in a state of obscurity.