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You can't take the sky from me

Author
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-05-31 12:50:58 UTC
Now that I think about it.
EVE appears to filled with dogs that have been beat.

They will snap at anything.
Just a bunch of angry people in game now, all you can do is feel sorry for them.


Elena Melkan
Magellanic Itg
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2012-05-31 12:58:18 UTC
If you look at the General Discussion and threads where people complain about something, you can pretty soon find "not-so-nice" replies in those threads. But a good rule of a thumb is, that these forums don't represent the whole EVE community. There are plenty of people who have never logged into forums, or bother posting in here. That's why claiming that EVE has become less friendly community is probably a bit exaggerated point of view. Internet culture changes, as more and more people delve into the mysteries of social media and gaming: in internet you are pretty much anonymous, free to write anything you would even think of without necessarily getting any consequences which could reflect into your real life.

Most of the time newbie-forums here are quite helpful. You could add some other forum parts in this category of rather friendly forums, those places where you go to ask or share your thoughts about the gameplay (market and mission forums for example), rather than thoughts about the community or recent events. But General Discussion, where you just posted your thread, hardly is friendly or helpful. Perhaps it's because people have different opinions and when they crash somewhere, the result can be pretty harsh.
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#43 - 2012-05-31 13:05:01 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
You guys could just post a roster instead of making us read the same, tired, one-liners. Posts like this OP attract the same mentally challenged every time. Proof of the challenged part? Read what they say post to post. Same thing every time. What's funny is, they don't remember they already said it. It's a new thought in their minds every time!

What they also fail to realize; we see them IRL every day. Ain't it funny how they all seem to look the same?


Thanks for saying something completely different to the other bilge that you normally spew here on the forums...oh wait

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.

Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#44 - 2012-05-31 13:12:18 UTC
+1 for the OP, while I wont be un subbing in the vain hope that those times return again, I do miss those days.

Tal

Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#45 - 2012-05-31 13:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ten Bulls
Good post, CCP has let casual and solo gameplay rot, yet they are a huge market.

EDIT: came here expecting something about firefly.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2012-05-31 13:19:22 UTC
I play both EVE and Tanks and IMHO they're very complementary. I love being able to login and get fair balanced fights with instant gratification.

But if someone in a match pisses you off, you can't just pitch up in his home system and gank him; you can't make a profit buying lots of Type 59s for cheap and reselling them for an absurd markup, you can't manipulate the market in consumables, there's no out of match intelligence or spying or subterfuge or backstabbing, which is what the half the fun in EVE is about. It's the lead ups to the confrontations that are fun, not trying to fight the enemy 15 vs 15 with two balanced teams.

The freedom and opportunity are what sets EVE apart Smile

Best of luck in Tanks though, it's tons of fun.

(My condolences if you ever have to grind through PzKpfw 38 nA though)
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#47 - 2012-05-31 13:20:20 UTC
James 315 wrote:
The only people trying to "degrade the community" are the highsec miners who want to remove all risk from their EVE experience and who believe they are entitled to an endless series of buffs and nerfs because they can't fit a hulk properly.



As apposed to all the self entitled, up their own ass, leet PVP'rs who get there kicks out of fu*king other ppls games up, shooting unarmed targets (even if badly fitted) for no challenge, then crowing on the forums about how great they are and harvesting tears. Then trying to dictate to the rest of Eve how they should play the game.


Tal


Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#48 - 2012-05-31 14:05:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
People were whining about the same stuff in 2007


People were also whining about the exact same stuff in 2005.

0.0 space was run by major alliances, high-sec dwellers were screaming about getting ganked, low sec still sucked and miners were everyone's favourite targets. In 7 years the only thing that has changed game play wise is that we now have more choices.

If EVE has truly ever had a Golden Age, I would say it is happening right now.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.

Price Check Aisle3
#49 - 2012-05-31 14:09:04 UTC
Mussaschi wrote:
Do you remember this video the butterfly effect? “A group of miners calling for help in local ...”. Well truth is, the miners would be probably ganked before they even finished typing, not mentioning flying there, locking the enemies

Why aren't you out there fighting the good fight instead of whining on the forums?
  • Karl Hobb IATS
Kno Bodeesbitch
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-05-31 14:30:44 UTC
Mme Pinkerton wrote:
This thread touches upon an important point that gets neglected in most of the current discussions:

The problem that miners currently complain about is primarily a problem of culture, not a problem of game mechanics.
However, if culture does not improve it will inevitably be "fixed" by way of game mechanics (which would be to the detriment of everyone, I think).

Activities like suicide ganking, scamming, corp theft, ... add a lot to the game as long as only a small minority actively pursues them. In that case they add some spice to an otherwise bland high-sec experience without seriously impacting the game overall.

However, when/once these activities become mainstream they will quickly stop being an enhancement to the game and become a detriment.

I think most of us know a similar problem from other pvp games - imbalances in classes/builds are generally unproblematic and can often be a boon to the game as long as they are not widely exploited.
But once every drooling idiot starts to use the "overpowered" FotM the game becomes unplayable until the next patch (some games have draft/ban systems that can act as a short-term bandaid in such cases).


Imagine you are a corporation CEO in EVE - one corp theft every few months should generally not be a huge problem. Sure it does hurt and it will make you reevaluate the procedures you had put in place to limit the impact of such thefts - but it should not put the continued existence of your corporation into question as long as you have managed it well. In fact, you might see such events as one opportunity to set yourself apart from less competent CEOs (who will get hit that much harder).
The game rules that allow corp theft work very well in this case - the thief can feel smug about the theft, the corpmembers can feel morally superior to the thief and the CEO can live his dream of being a corp CEO. ^^

Now imagine that instead of one corp theft every few months, you have a corp theft every few days - regardless of whether there is anything worth stealing or not. Free T1 frigates and some stashes of cheap modules? why not steal it when you can?
All material losses aside the morale among the honest member of your corp will drop really fast in such a case - suspicion and paranoia will take over.
In that case you can either lock down everything - don't hand out any assets, do extensive background checks on new recruits, ... - or shut down the corporation. Either way not only do your corpmates and you suffer, all budding corpthieves in the EVE universe suffer as well as there will be one less target for them.


Now, according to regular predator/prey dynamics we would expect that at some point there aren't any corporations left that the thieves could steal from and the number of predators will start dropping.
But this point of view omits that we are talking about a real-life business that needs continued cashflow to operate and has a reputation to maintain (which is not easily restored once it has been destroyed).
The game master has to intervene long before the "natural" return towards equilibrium would set in and when appeals to reason "Can't you see that you are hurting yourself by overfarming your prey?" prove to be fruitless he can only respond by changing the rules.

There is no black/white distinction between "good" and "bad" game mechanics - strict application of the categorical imperative does (in my experience) generally not result in games that are fun to play, imbalances and small exploits are perfectly fine as long their use doesn't spiral out of control - and whether that happens or not is very much a question of community culture. Do you have gamers who just want to pwn using the latest fotm or do you have gamers who share some concern about the state of the game as a whole?


tl;dr suicide ganking, corp thefts, scams, ... are great for EVE - as long as only a few people engage in these activities.
Once they become popular these "good" game mechanics become problematic and CCP would be forced to change them (for business reasons) long before any natural return towards equilibrium could set in - ultimately reducing the scope of the sandbox to the detriment of everyone.


This!

The fact that Miners vs. Gankers is dominating the forums means something is out of whack.

Both "professions" were formerly at the ass-end of the food chain, now it is all that people talk about.

IMO it is because there is nothing else happening in the game.

If suicide ganking becomes the pinnacle of achievement in Eve then we have truly fallen.

People say that the problem is the "new crop" of players that want a "theme park". I say the problem is a lack of players that think and play on a grand scale. ( that includes both miners and gankers, me and most likely you)
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#51 - 2012-05-31 14:38:36 UTC
James 315 wrote:
The only people trying to "degrade the community" are the highsec miners who want to remove all risk from their EVE experience and who believe they are entitled to an endless series of buffs and nerfs because they can't fit a hulk properly.


You can't fit a hulk to avoid a gank. Gankers will gank you no matter what you fit, so this line of reasoning is bull. Gankers just want better loot to salavage, that's why they all parrot this tripe.
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#52 - 2012-05-31 14:50:11 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:
James 315 wrote:
The only people trying to "degrade the community" are the highsec miners who want to remove all risk from their EVE experience and who believe they are entitled to an endless series of buffs and nerfs because they can't fit a hulk properly.


You can't fit a hulk to avoid a gank. Gankers will gank you no matter what you fit, so this line of reasoning is bull. Gankers just want better loot to salavage, that's why they all parrot this tripe.


Heres a helpful tip, paying attention, using your dscan and warping off before the gankers get there will save you every time. Cant shoot whats not there after all.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#53 - 2012-05-31 14:58:21 UTC
Mussaschi wrote:
“A group of miners calling for help in local ...”. Well truth is, the miners would be probably ganked before they even finished typing


That's the problem, right there. The miners should never have been in the belt without combat support already ready to begin with. If you look back at the first three-four years of EVE, miners usually had combat pilots fleeted with them already, and there was incentitives for the combat pilots to do so (production of t1 items, as you couldn't just get them cheap on market, and making isk for a combat pilot wasn't that easy).

The day we (yes, all players) stopped working their PvE in groups, mining, industrialism, missions, etc.. that's when the non-PvP focused pilots started to struggle. Combat pilots can now supply their needs easily by shooting a couple of NPCs and buy stuff from market. We don't need miners or builders. Miners tho, they still need combat pilots, but they too want everything to be 'solo-able'.

TL;DR mining should be profitable - but dangerous. Miners should want to pay for combat support. Combat pilots should want to defend the miners. Players should want to interact a bit more with the 'other side', and solo less.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Clyde Barrows
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2012-05-31 15:09:20 UTC
Mussaschi wrote:
When I started with eve some years ago, eve was almost perfect, lot's of clear sky, an extremely helpful community, and this wild mix of things you could do according to your mood.
Going into low and 0.0 if you need some adrenalin to kick in, missions if you had to fill up an hour of free time, mining if you wanted to do something in the middle of something else.
It was this heritage from elite that got me. If I look at eve now, the picture becomes quite sad. Technically eve get's better and better. The visuals are still stunning, and a lot of the stuff that was annoying in the past have been dealt with. Than eve lost something important to me. Do you remember this video the butterfly effect? “A group of miners calling for help in local ...”. Well truth is, the miners would be probably ganked before they even finished typing, not mentioning flying there, locking the enemies … 0.0 has become so small that you can not dream of getting a piece of that pie, unless you play but monkey for a big alliance. WH space is quite ok at the moment, but looking at the decisions before I am sure that they will find a way to nerve them too. The forums are filled with people as helpful as rattlesnakes and with about the same attitude or IQ, and if I check the posts in my alliance I see that they have been robbed the 3rd time now, by trusted long time members. The community degraded and it seems that the developers at CCP share their vision of death match unlimited. Not that death match unlimited has to be a bad game, but it will not be the game I dedicate a lot of my time, and I guess it would be WOT in this case for me.
From what I see future eve will be played only by full time eve professionals, gankers and masochists. Since none of that apply to me, guess I will let my subscription run out. I am sure eve will not die, and I applaud the CCP game designers that stick to their vision of the game to a point, that it even risks their jobs (or at least the jobs of some more colleagues).
So good luck to all who decide to stay. Go down fighting. Hope that I will find reason again to revisit eve.


Great post . I agree 100% . I am just waiting for my sub to run out too.
Twulf
Order of the Eagles
#55 - 2012-05-31 15:19:41 UTC
Morganta wrote:
you know WOT is full of people who have played the game longer and or paid more than you to be better than you

are you sure that's really a step up?


Clearly you have never played WOT. Gold tanks are not that OP and can be killed without Gold tanks or ammo. The game is way more balanced then EVE will ever hope to be. WOT is real PVP.

I have played since WOT was in Beta in North America. Great game, still play it but your so wrong about paid = better. Player Skill and knowledge of the tanks is the only thing that will make you good or bad. Its that simple.

Eyup Mi'duck
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-05-31 15:29:16 UTC
Entropic Doom.

It gets everything in the end, even EVE is not immune...

I am me.         I am not you.     I have my own thoughts.     I am very happy with this situation.

Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#57 - 2012-05-31 17:42:31 UTC
Twulf wrote:
Morganta wrote:
you know WOT is full of people who have played the game longer and or paid more than you to be better than you

are you sure that's really a step up?


Clearly you have never played WOT. Gold tanks are not that OP and can be killed without Gold tanks or ammo. The game is way more balanced then EVE will ever hope to be. WOT is real PVP.

I have played since WOT was in Beta in North America. Great game, still play it but your so wrong about paid = better. Player Skill and knowledge of the tanks is the only thing that will make you good or bad. Its that simple.




Goodbye enjoy WOT,


Tal
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2012-05-31 17:45:18 UTC
Kno Bodeesbitch wrote:
Harnessing the stupidity and short attention span of the lowest common denominator.


Not all miners have short attention spans or are dumb.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#59 - 2012-05-31 17:51:07 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Ana Vyr wrote:
James 315 wrote:
The only people trying to "degrade the community" are the highsec miners who want to remove all risk from their EVE experience and who believe they are entitled to an endless series of buffs and nerfs because they can't fit a hulk properly.


You can't fit a hulk to avoid a gank. Gankers will gank you no matter what you fit, so this line of reasoning is bull. Gankers just want better loot to salavage, that's why they all parrot this tripe.


Heres a helpful tip, paying attention, using your dscan and warping off before the gankers get there will save you every time. Cant shoot whats not there after all.


Of course.

Now let me know how that works out for you when the gankers warp to the cloaked ship that fingered you, and there's a point on you before you can act.

Due dilligence is always great, and for the record I have never been ganked while mining. I do use the d-scanner, I take note of who's in system, I choose my mining locations and times accordingly to avoid peak times etc etc etc...and my Hulk is tanked.

None of this will save me from a determined ganker. This is my point. If somebody wants to punk your Hulk, they can. Simple as that, and there's nothing you can do against this kind of determination except not mine.

I've been mining in a Covetor lately, just in case.
Price Check Aisle3
#60 - 2012-05-31 17:54:11 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:
Now let me know how that works out for you when the gankers warp to the cloaked ship that fingered you, and there's a point on you before you can act.

So you actually weren't spamming the d-scan, staying aligned, and watching local for the scary yellows, like you claimed...
  • Karl Hobb IATS