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First Impression of Faction Warfare -- post inferno patch

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Jones Bones
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2012-05-26 02:33:20 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
From EVE-Kill.net it's quite obvious I have no actively played EVE in over a year.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#102 - 2012-05-26 05:53:09 UTC
Capitol One wrote:
...To each their own, you just seemed to me like you cared a great deal, with how much you lamented over our "defeat and imminent destruction/eviction". Also, I'd like to think it was our [Amarr] beliefs and spirit that made us prevail where others would've fallen :)...

Been there done that. Where was everyone in the first 40 months of the war when we were ~20 people fighting the uphill battle against the odds in the plexing game .. for zero rewards?

Four years have come and gone, CCP has been dutifully notified of all bugs and potential exploits I have come across and ideas for improvements have been posted by entire FW community since day one (almost) .. bug present at FW launch is still there, blatant exploits are ignored because their logs show nothing (ie. can't tell if accidental .. all umpteen times in a row) and practically all ideas/concepts has been ignored in favour of whatever they consider good end-game content (ie. null crap).

FW will survive, no doubt, participants are too damn stupid and stubborn for any other outcome .. but will it be fun?

Post-patch mentions seem to show by far the most fun is had on the snowball sides as they have a waaaaay easier time with infini-LP and docking everywhere .. half of the playes having fun is good right?
Jones Bones wrote:
Troll

Funny how that coincides with T3 alts maturing thus completely breaking the game for all pew enthusiasts who don't meta-game or alt spam. Been playing, just stayed away from the neutral boosted blobbo-rama that FW turned into.
Also coincides with all the high and mighty promises of :awesome: improvements for FW to be included in Incursions only to be axed when CCP realised it would actually require work.
Alyna Stormwind
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#103 - 2012-05-26 06:13:09 UTC
Why do these threads turn into so much hate and mud slinging?
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#104 - 2012-05-26 09:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Capitol One wrote:
Stuff


The right attitude.

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Stuff


The wrong attitude.


Pretty much :this:

I've seen in the last couple of weeks that the Amarrian Faction is quite capable of putting up one hellova fight when it needs to but it suffers from a lot of vocal naysaying and defeatist claptrap. I can only imagine how annoying it would be to try to organize in that environment and be told by one's allies "it can't be done", "its impossible" "no chance!" all the time.

Players like Veshta did absolutely nothing to fight for their side on the run up to Inferno and spent the entire time prepping for evac while posting complaints on the forum is the brutal reality.

And even now I think the single biggest problem facing the Amarr is too much negativity and not enough "can do" as demonstrated effectively by those of their comrades who did actually fight last week,

The Faction Warfare "as was" mythologised by Veshta was about pointing lone war targets in defensive plexes with navy slicers and letting the npcs do much of the kill. This happy hunting time was always going to come to an end when people started caring about plexing on the strategic level and fighting for the things in earnest.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Jones Bones
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2012-05-26 11:25:41 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Funny how that coincides with T3 alts maturing thus completely breaking the game for all pew enthusiasts who don't meta-game or alt spam. Been playing, just stayed away from the neutral boosted blobbo-rama that FW turned into.
Also coincides with all the high and mighty promises of :awesome: improvements for FW to be included in Incursions only to be axed when CCP realised it would actually require work.


You sound like you don't enjoy EVE. Why bother playing?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#106 - 2012-05-26 11:47:28 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Players like Veshta did absolutely nothing to fight for their side on the run up to Inferno and spent the entire time prepping for evac while posting complaints on the forum is the brutal reality.

So you perfectly fine with the massive imbalances when it comes to plexing? For the record, I started my evac immediately after the FF presentation because it was pretty evident that everything there was set in stone .. was hoping not, but decided to err on the side of caution.
Jade Constantine wrote:
And even now I think the single biggest problem facing the Amarr is too much negativity and not enough "can do" as demonstrated effectively by those of their comrades who did actually fight last week

Gee, wonder if that ferocious fighting might have had something to do with the ability to reship/repair on-site .. if that sort of fighting continues I'd be beyond surprised. It will at best be in fits and starts and not the continues slug fest that happened in Kourm ..
Jade Constantine wrote:
The Faction Warfare "as was" mythologised by Veshta was about pointing lone war targets in defensive plexes with navy slicers and letting the npcs do much of the kill...

Say what? Pretty sure I never did such a thing .. brawler Slicers don't exactly lend themselves well to that kind of thing .. perhaps you are confusing it with some of your own "heroics".

The changes are :awesome:, or rather would have been had the four year old imbalances been addressed first or in conjunction with them .. now it seems you are lucky if FW gets fixed this coming winter judging by the "feedback" thread on NPCs. Apparently the last years numerous posts on just that topic never happened as CCP wants to start from scratch on the subject.

So tell me oh wise one, how is Amarr militia supposed to make any sort of meaningful headway without blobbing the crap out everything .. much harder offensive plexing, no docking and no income to speak of (LP are worth less than 1/2 of similar LP in high-sec).
It is bad for the game when things are allowed/designed to be so lop-sided .. there is a reason why pro sports have seeding's and whatnot to make sure that there is at least a semblance of competetion.
Jones Bones wrote:
You sound like you don't enjoy EVE. Why bother playing?

Because I keep hoping beyond all reasonable hope that CCP will wake the **** up and actually look at and think about what they doing instead of ticking boxes in the database after consulting nothing but metrics.
Can you imagine the ****-storm that would arise if they pulled something like Inferno on the NPC null regions .. no docking based on standings/sovereignty with one party being able to achieve said standings/sovereignty 3-4 times easier than everyone else? .. yeah, that would go down smooth like Roll
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#107 - 2012-05-26 12:17:04 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Capitol One wrote:
Stuff


The right attitude.

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Stuff


The wrong attitude.


Pretty much :this:

I've seen in the last couple of weeks that the Amarrian Faction is quite capable of putting up one hellova fight when it needs to but it suffers from a lot of vocal naysaying and defeatist claptrap. I can only imagine how annoying it would be to try to organize in that environment and be told by one's allies "it can't be done", "its impossible" "no chance!" all the time.
.



The minmatar keep cheerleading and misrepresenting the amarrs views. Saying we can't match the minmatar numbers on certain nights is just a statement of fact. I know you want us to have a unrealistic can do attitude and through our smaller numbers at your blobs. But that won't happen.

Most people I deal with in amarr are experienced enough in this game where we will take a fight if we have a shot and won't take one when we won't. Your emotional words won't change that. Whether we fight on any given night has nothing to do with whether we think the amarr can or can't do anything in a general sense. Its really just a matter of what numbers and shiptypes does your fleet have and what can we bring. I am not interested in trying to do a bunch of recruiting to get more numbers in our blob. If I wanted to play that, I would be in null sec.

The amarr being up or down has nothing to do with my view of this expansion. I didn't see we had anything close to the numbers on teamspeak last night to stop the fall of raa. Does my stating that mean I am not good cheerleader? Does stating a fact, make me defeatists?

I would be against this expansion if i saw it was driving hordes of minmatar further from the fighting and forcing them to blob up to survive.

Can amarr turn the tables? Sure. But it will involve allot more button spinning and a lot less pvp. I'm not interested in doing that. It will also depend on recruitment drives, or on large alliances to come in and save us. Neither is not really the gameplay I like.

Nor do I really care for the "spying" of null sec etc. Just my own views. I'm not interested in any of the drama in the other thread. I just want to pvp, and have wanted ccp to make faction war more conducive to pvp for years. Instead we get drama, politics, blob or die, with a handfull of htfu thrown in.

The thing I am most upset about is having to move so many ships and modules that I had set up in the war zone - out and further away from the fighting. Yes its not so much the work involved in moving ships but the fact that I have to move them further from the pvp. My corp and a certain amarr corp in Auga are pvp corps. That is why we based in systems that the minmatar base in. (you may not know this but auga used to be a minmatar base)

The problem with these changes is now we can either spend allot of our eve time moving our stuff from system to system or grinding plexes even when no enemy is there to fight. (which most in my corp prefer not to do.) Or we can move outside the warzone so we don't have to not have every hour of gameplay moving ships all the time and/or button spinning. I don't see how people think this is good for pvp.

My corp made good efforts to try to take our base system Arzad. And it was not in the pipe that wolfsbrigade was talking about in Zeero's post. We almost took it a few times but were stopped due to bugged timers. We did take some systems right next to our base. But by and large the bugged timers were pretty discouraging so we stopped with the plexing efforts in general.

But even if the timers were not bugged we did not have the manpower to take that system at the time. We only have about 10 active pilots and really at that earlier date I doubt we had any idea of wolfbrigade's intentions. (although I am not a director so I don't know) Would they have been able and willing to pitch in substantial forces to help us take Auga and Arzad? I don't know. They certainly have allot more resources than we do and I don't know the extent of them.

Faction war used to be something where you could run small gangs and you didn't have to "coodinate" every ship into the same fleet to have fun. Now if you don't want to or can't form the huge fleets you should expect to be kicked out of the area. What area of space does that sound like?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
marketjacker
Mr. Clean Corp..
#108 - 2012-05-26 12:29:17 UTC
Quote:

Because I keep hoping beyond all reasonable hope that CCP will wake the **** up and actually look at and think about what they doing instead of ticking boxes in the database after consulting nothing but metrics.
Can you imagine the ****-storm that would arise if they pulled something like Inferno on the NPC null regions .. no docking based on standings/sovereignty with one party being able to achieve said standings/sovereignty 3-4 times easier than everyone else? .. yeah, that would go down smooth like Roll


Sounds like someone is very mad.
Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#109 - 2012-05-26 14:00:07 UTC
Congrats wolfs brigade for letting raa flip.
I know no matter what's said about it you guys will claim it as a win.
Just like wen we took all them systems pre patch u guys somehow won.

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#110 - 2012-05-26 14:54:33 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
FYI, logged in this afternoon... picked up ship in Nenna. Straight away Fight No. 1:
5 Thoraxes in Medium Plex

Then we started moving to Tama . Low and behold, a nano-Zealot wanted to engage on gate in Hikk (under protection of gate guns). (He had a Gila and another buddy who chickened out)

Well, we might as well keep going. A Loki wanted the same sort of protection in Kedama on the Hirri gate:
Loki+Purifier, plus there was another fight we weren't involved in.

After losing drones to gate guns I dock up in Nisuwa and added to the wealth of the excellent fellow in SoTF who sells drones on market, and then head back to Nenna and our boys point a Drake.

We move to Aivonen to run some guys out of a plex, but there's another Drake.

Nonstop action all within an hour. Greatest expansion ever!



I have been getting allot of kills in short times too. It is sometimes like shooting fish in a barrel. So my anecdotal experience matches yours on that count and I am very happy about that.

How many plexes did your fleet actually capture in that 1 hour time?

The reason I ask is because although I am getting more pvp in general due to more newer players coming into the area, I still find that plexing does not yield as many fights as the traditional "roaming." Therefore to some extent I still have to choose if I want to pvp or if I want to plex. There is still this divide between plexing for occupancy, and pvp.

How much of a divide is something I am trying to track as I play this game.

Ideally CCP would design faction war so that the best and fastest way to get quality pvp is to plex. Once that happens then I think faction war will be awesome.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#111 - 2012-05-26 15:05:16 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
From EVE-Kill.net it's quite obvious I have no actively played EVE in over a year.



According to the Amarr Killboards:

Veshta is the top killer of the player corp with the 3rd highest number of kills in amarr faction war. 2772 faction war kills.

Muad 'dib is the Ceo of the player corp with the 2nd highest number of total kills in amarr history and has 2189 individual faction war kills recorded with that corp.

People who are upset with certain of these changes know the faction war mechanics.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Jones Bones
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2012-05-26 16:08:16 UTC
Silence iKillYouu wrote:
Congrats wolfs brigade for letting raa flip.
I know no matter what's said about it you guys will claim it as a win.
Just like wen we took all them systems pre patch u guys somehow won.


I told you guys to drop the Logi and I'd get together a group of BCs to brawl mode. If you wanted a fight in late night USTZ like that you wouldn't have had brought all dem Guardians.
Gunnyt31
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#113 - 2012-05-26 17:21:29 UTC
Hmm fw seems like fun now
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#114 - 2012-05-26 18:00:51 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
Silence iKillYouu wrote:
Congrats wolfs brigade for letting raa flip.
I know no matter what's said about it you guys will claim it as a win.
Just like wen we took all them systems pre patch u guys somehow won.


I told you guys to drop the Logi and I'd get together a group of BCs to brawl mode. If you wanted a fight in late night USTZ like that you wouldn't have had brought all dem Guardians.


Confirming two Guardians is "all dem Guardians". Confirming open militia fleet with half the #s being newbs in crap-Thrashers is very "frightening".

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Duke Dantez
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2012-05-26 18:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Duke Dantez
Cearain wrote:
Jones Bones wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
From EVE-Kill.net it's quite obvious I have no actively played EVE in over a year.



According to the Amarr Killboards:

Veshta is the top killer of the player corp with the 3rd highest number of kills in amarr faction war. 2772 faction war kills.

Muad 'dib is the Ceo of the player corp with the 2nd highest number of total kills in amarr history and has 2189 individual faction war kills recorded with that corp.

People who are upset with certain of these changes know the faction war mechanics.




You missed the point of this thread. It's about first impression of FW post-Inferno.

http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_ext_id=960693087&view=recent

No activity for over a month means that Veshta Yoshida's opinion means nothing. This thread is about first impressions of FW post patch. How does someone with lots of FW experience and yet no activity in the last month have any right to try to crap people out of trying FW.

The Amarr are getting lots of new pilots (a lot more then have quit). Yes they are new and naive. But so is everyone who joins FW at first. Give them a couple months and the Amarr will have more than enough to try and push us back a few systems. At least they are giving FW a shot and having fun.

Open your mind. This patch is here to stay and you should actually try it out or just quit already.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#116 - 2012-05-26 18:56:54 UTC
4 years as opposed to your 4 months .. that is why my opinion matters more than yours .. nublet.

The only thing I am saying, ie. repeating ad nauseum, is that FW balance is broken and has been for as long as I remember .. it should have been so high up on the list that crap like incentives/consequences were but dots on the horizon.

Until the fundamentals are addressed there can be no push-back at all .. it is quite literally not theoretically possible .. Amarr would need 3-4x the Mime numbers to offensive plex with no repair/dock available.
We are talking plus 3-400 actives across times-zones to be able to deal with logistics, NPCs, Mimes, Neutrals et. al. at the same time .. and no, a swarm noobs will not make much of a difference against what will likely be 100% faction fitted faction hulls flown by multi-year veterans.

So if you want that mythological push-back you speak of, then go convince a medium sized null alliance to join up to a side where ISK is scarce, you have to fight with no immediate support available (docking) and enemy has equal numbers and devastatingly broken NPCs on their side.
Jones Bones
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2012-05-26 19:00:38 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:

Confirming two Guardians is "all dem Guardians". Confirming open militia fleet with half the #s being newbs in crap-Thrashers is very "frightening".


::shrug::

We had 15 in fleet and you had over that just in BCs. Again, without Logis I would have suicided a fleet into you. But you got to shoot a structure while I spun my ship sooooooo faaaaaast.
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#118 - 2012-05-26 19:42:33 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:

Confirming two Guardians is "all dem Guardians". Confirming open militia fleet with half the #s being newbs in crap-Thrashers is very "frightening".


::shrug::

We had 15 in fleet and you had over that just in BCs. Again, without Logis I would have suicided a fleet into you. But you got to shoot a structure while I spun my ship sooooooo faaaaaast.


Oh, welp. vOv Will keep in mind for next time. <3

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Duke Dantez
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2012-05-26 23:06:23 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
4 years as opposed to your 4 months .. that is why my opinion matters more than yours .. nublet.

The only thing I am saying, ie. repeating ad nauseum, is that FW balance is broken and has been for as long as I remember .. it should have been so high up on the list that crap like incentives/consequences were but dots on the horizon.

Until the fundamentals are addressed there can be no push-back at all .. it is quite literally not theoretically possible .. Amarr would need 3-4x the Mime numbers to offensive plex with no repair/dock available.
We are talking plus 3-400 actives across times-zones to be able to deal with logistics, NPCs, Mimes, Neutrals et. al. at the same time .. and no, a swarm noobs will not make much of a difference against what will likely be 100% faction fitted faction hulls flown by multi-year veterans.

So if you want that mythological push-back you speak of, then go convince a medium sized null alliance to join up to a side where ISK is scarce, you have to fight with no immediate support available (docking) and enemy has equal numbers and devastatingly broken NPCs on their side.


You Did not read my original post? Or the title of this thread? This thread is about first impressions on the new FW mechanics. How does your 4 years of experience (of the old FW mechanics) apply to the new patch when everything has changed..

We are all 3 day old noobs to the new patch you idiot.

I admit that I am fairly new to FW (7 months not 4, Duke is my main but i have multiple accounts). It doesnt matter how experienced you are. You could be an 2003 toon for all i care, but you are a veteran who is not playing eve right now and complaining on the sidelines.

Like I said before the time to debate about the features of the new patch is over. It is here to stay. get with the program and maybe you wont be such a noob to the new FW mechanics when you finally decide to log on and play Eve again.
Target Painter
Minmatar Appreciation Society
#120 - 2012-05-27 00:18:14 UTC
I've pretty much retired from posting here and only semi-active at best on my main but...

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
So if you want that mythological push-back you speak of, then go convince a medium sized null alliance to join up to a side where ISK is scarce, you have to fight with no immediate support available (docking) and enemy has equal numbers and devastatingly broken NPCs on their side.


See, this is an entirely reasonable set of goals for Amarr FW themselves. All of EVE saw Pinked. grind through for their Geminate space under the threat of SOLAR (and others) retaliation, but despite being a rather terrible alliance PvP-wise and having nowhere near standard blob numbers, managed to carve out space for themselves, without income, without docking against an opponent who had more numbers, more supers, more income and who were known for being some of the most competent in sov nullsec. br1ck sQuAd did the same, fighting under the constant threat of NCdot supercapital escalation and rarely having more than 35 in fleet and frequently less than half that. And Geminate is worse for grunt pilots compared to even Amarr's current position. Just to sum it up, they fought harder, against longer odds for less rewards.

Especially with regards to docking rights, docking rights are a complete non-issue for sov-roaming groups like Team Liquid, DarkSide., Black Legion., Gorgon Empire, Stain Empire, etc. How is this so? They got good at the game. They don't need to dock up when the odds are against them.

All of this is easily, so very easily, achievable by current Amarr FW. They just need people to step up to the plate in the USTZ and at least contest the Minmatar USTZ dominance. And less people complaining that the load is too heavy. It's not, those people are just too weak.