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Combat frigate changes for Inferno

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Ogopogo Mu
O C C U P Y
#321 - 2012-05-10 00:22:03 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
In what way is this at -all- consistent with Caldari gunboats? The Moa is not a brawler, nor is the cormorant, nor the eagle, nor the ferox. Some would argue this but I would also argue that the Harpy isn't, either.

You're shitting on Caldari ship philosophy. If the existing role doesn't work (And I would argue that no, certainly the current Merlin doesn't really work as a railboat) then fix that instead of trying to make it a Gallente ship. The biggest problem the current Merlin has is that it only has two turrets and no damage bonus which means it's not very usable by newbies and non-damage-bonused rails alone don't do enough damage.

Optimal + damage bonus with three turrets is a great idea. Merlin could still be used as a blasterboat, but the bonuses would reflect what other Caldari gunboats are. Three bonused rails could actually be very, very usable in frigate combat


Honestly I like the Merlin the way it is now, and the revised plan also has some promise. But the hybrids + optimal = caldari only results in these ships (much as I love them) being pretty gimpy and not often used. Best fitting for Moa = gas harvesters. Fixating on rangey rails as purist Caldari gunboat design philosophy excludes all brawling possibilities and simply makes Caldari boats more predictable, more easily countered, and never used. Especially in frigates. "I'll tackle in my kiting railmerlin wlololol..."

Inflexibility with gun bonuses already relegates most of the Caldari gun lineup to non-usability except by wackos like me who still get FC-shoved into a cane or blackbird or... hey, you know what kind of Caldari ship doesn't suck at tracking in facerange? A Drake! Everyone wants more of those out there, I'm sure.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#322 - 2012-05-10 06:58:06 UTC
Crazy idea: change 10% optimal bonus to hybrids in a 5% optimal, 5% falloff bonus.
Elenor Kharne
ergo optima
#323 - 2012-05-10 10:49:23 UTC
Ogopogo Mu wrote:
Fixating on rangey rails as purist Caldari gunboat design philosophy excludes all brawling possibilities and simply makes Caldari boats more predictable, more easily countered, and never used. Especially in frigates. "I'll tackle in my kiting railmerlin wlololol..."


I fit a reailmerlin on sisi yesterday and it flew pretty awesome. I dont think it will be useless, it's a good ship. Didn't fly caldari very much, hence I cannot tell much about if it's better or worse than the current one. A blaster merlin feels like shield gallente ship. Considering that gallente might have rockets instead, this change would be more awkward.

Now I have mixed feeling about the incursus. For 1on1 it's just overpowered, but as soon as some "friends" join the end is closing in damn fast. On the other hand, if active tanks are balanced to take on smaller groups and passive tanks are more useful in fleet/bigger gang fights than I am quite content with the changes. That said, wonder how huge the impact would be to buff the myrm rep boni to 10%.
Tested two fits with it, a dualrep fit which rocked all other frigs and a plated + rep which felt not very good.

The Tormenter is just lol. I remember them as bait ships and now they are becoming combat ready. fit scram/web and pop them at range with scorch =)

Not sure if a laser puni can now beat a autocannon punisher, because laser have still a hell of tracking issues. Fit them with 400mm plate, heat sink, dc2, web/scram, nos, dual light pulse and ab. The bigger damage is nice.

Anyway, I tested them almost exclusively in "made up" 1v1s and fit them all with an ab.. It would be a different story when you want to fly in 0.0 (eg. need mwd fits)
All in all, some movement in the game mechanics and balancing itself is freakin awesome. Opens the door for more variety and might prevent the tendency to stick to c&p fotm ships for a while.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#324 - 2012-05-10 11:13:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Honestly I like the Merlin the way it is now, and the revised plan also has some promise. But the hybrids + optimal = caldari only results in these ships (much as I love them) being pretty gimpy and not often used. Best fitting for Moa = gas harvesters. Fixating on rangey rails as purist Caldari gunboat design philosophy excludes all brawling possibilities and simply makes Caldari boats more predictable, more easily countered, and never used. Especially in frigates. "I'll tackle in my kiting railmerlin wlololol..."


the moa is goddamn awesome. Blaster moa doesn't have the range problems that other blasterboats do, but more importantly a rail-fit moa can run around at 40km dealing 315 DPS. or even further for marginally reduced damage. It's fantastic gang support. The only problem with Caldari gunboats as a whole is that, at the cruiser and up level, they specialize in uberlongrange...which is made useless by the 150km warp range. That's a problem with warping and probing mechanics, though, not with Caldari ship design.


Rail merlin is able to kite well outside the range of other t1 frigates. Its only problem right now is that it has a useless tank bonus (doesn't help at kite ranges) and no damage bonus (which, when added with rails, means it takes a year to kill something). If a three-turret, damage-bonused rail bonus still wasn't capable of doing that job properly then you could boost its speed/agility or something.

Quote:
Now I have mixed feeling about the incursus. For 1on1 it's just overpowered, but as soon as some "friends" join the end is closing in damn fast. On the other hand, if active tanks are balanced to take on smaller groups and passive tanks are more useful in fleet/bigger gang fights than I am quite content with the changes. That said, wonder how huge the impact would be to buff the myrm rep boni to 10%.


Except the incursus has no range to speak of. It better goddamn well be able to kill a Rifter in a straight slugfest, but the same rifter should win (and I bet it does) if it uses its superior speed and range.
Elenor Kharne
ergo optima
#325 - 2012-05-10 11:33:25 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:

Except the incursus has no range to speak of. It better goddamn well be able to kill a Rifter in a straight slugfest, but the same rifter should win (and I bet it does) if it uses its superior speed and range.


Kinda interested to test that. An mwd rifter might win if its able to tank. I dont have enough experience when it comes to a ab rifter.
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#326 - 2012-05-10 11:54:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
Before think about balancing T1 frigates, the first thing is to determine what purpose for each frigate and if we will find the same purpose in all races.
I think it would be easier to choose six base missions for each of the six different frigates in each race:

1- Long range attack fregate (30 - 50 km).
Bonus to Standard missiles, Beam lasers, Small artillery or Small railgun range or damage
Bonus to Beam lasers, Small artillery or Small railgun tracking or Bonus to Standard missiles velocity.
Kestrel / Inquisitor / Navitas / Breacher

2- Brawler frigate (0 - 15km) or Heavy Takler
Bonus to Rocket launcher, Small pulse, Small blasters or Small Autocanons damage
Bonus to Rocket launcher velocity or Bonus Small pulse, Small blasters or Small Autocanons tracking
Bonus to defence
Merlin, Punisher, Rifter, Tristan

3- Mid range combat ( 15 -30 km)
Bous to small weapon damage or range
Bonus to defence
Condor, Executioner, Slasher, Incursus

4- Fast transport or Mining or Salvage
Bonus to cargohold and 4 low slots minimum
Bonus mining laser yield
Bonus to salvage
Bantam, Tormentor, Burst, Navitas

5- Ewar support
Bonus to remote sensor booster or target painter
Bonus to remote repairer
Griffin, Crucifier, Vigil, Maulus

6- Scout /Probe
Bonus to probe strengh
Bonus to afterburner speed
Heron, Magnate, Probe, Atron

I know I Modified some ship purpose. It is because I think their look correspond better like that.
I choose to not use Drones as weapon base option. It is because I think drones should be seen as utility option opened to all races and not only for just gallente.
Amarr = Lasers
Caldari = Missiles (with bonus to velocity to increase range and reduce time between the shoot and the impact . Perharps on Rockets, Assaut missiles and Torpedoes)
Gallente = Hybrid
Minmatar = Projectiles

Give a second T2 Destroyer to all race for drones with different bonuses (Neutra for Amarr / Web for Gallente / Remote Shield for Caldari / Remote Armor repair for Minmatar and race damage drones )

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Melyor Le'line
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#327 - 2012-05-10 16:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Melyor Le'line
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • GALLENTE IS THE DRONE RACE, NO MISSILES!: As we move along and develop new lines, we will consider opening new options like further developing Drone ships for Amarr, or Missile ships for Gallente (Roden Shipyards, despite their lack of usefulness, are supposed to have missiles).

    • Can't say I like this idea.

    For one, it would get us another armor tanked race with drone boats, imho if you want lasers on your armor tanked drone boat that badly, grab a MyrmidonBlink, developing the Winmatar more in that direction might make more sense (gives us shield tanked drone boats ... yay?).

    For another more missiles would add a third "main" weapons system to the Gallente (Drones for most races are just "utility", they're supposed to be more than that for Gallente, which doesn't really work out all that well in practice it seems, see below).

    Imho dump the missiles on the Tristan and turn it into a proper drone frig.

    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    I choose to not use Drones as weapon base option. It is because I think drones should be seen as utility option opened to all races and not only for just gallente.


    Quite unsurprisingly I really really (really) dislike this option (and that's putting it mildly!). I love the idea of drones and fixing them to make them a viable main weapons system, as they were obviously intended to be, would imho be a lot better than just taking the lazy way out by swiping them under the carpet as "utility for all races".

    TL;DR simplified "one weapons system per race" and "drones for everyone". DO NOT WANT!
    Ro Storm
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #328 - 2012-05-10 16:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ro Storm
    I'm not the most veteran player of EVE, but to all the posts out there that say things like CCP **** over again, notice this.
    If you want a good game, then you aught to have a GM that's willing to make better decisions, even at the last minute. The skill
    changes, to me seemed to be rumored, at least trying to find hard info on what Inferno will be as a final product. This is smarter, if ship changes are going to go on for a long time, you don't want to make drastic, unwise changes to the game, that will make
    for unbalancing.

     Ro  Storm
    Cardano Firesnake
    Fire Bullet Inc
    #329 - 2012-05-10 18:27:14 UTC
    The other option would to give all the races two main weapons:

    Amarr: Laser+Drones (drones instead missiles to balance missiles and drones among races)
    Galente: Hybrid+Drones
    Caldari: Missiles+Hybrid
    Minmatar: Projectiles+Missiles

    With a T1 ship based on each Weapon for each size.?

    Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
    Mira Lynne
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #330 - 2012-05-10 20:48:18 UTC
    Ogopogo Mu wrote:
    Hybrids + optimal = caldari only results in these ships (much as I love them) being pretty gimpy and not often used. Best fitting for Moa = gas harvesters. Fixating on rangey rails as purist Caldari gunboat design philosophy excludes all brawling possibilities and simply makes Caldari boats more predictable, more easily countered, and never used. Especially in frigates. "I'll tackle in my kiting railmerlin wlololol..."

    Inflexibility with gun bonuses already relegates most of the Caldari gun lineup to non-usability except by wackos like me who still get FC-shoved into a cane or blackbird or... hey, you know what kind of Caldari ship doesn't suck at tracking in facerange? A Drake! Everyone wants more of those out there, I'm sure.

    This. A Hundred Times This


    Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
    Crazy idea: change 10% optimal bonus to hybrids in a 5% optimal, 5% falloff bonus.

    I think this is something that should be considered, but at 10% to both optimal and falloff (Not just because I suggested that on page 15.... >.> <.<)

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    Recoil IV
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #331 - 2012-05-10 23:35:13 UTC
    i am dissapoint,i dont have gunnery skills except weapon up.but i do have max missiles skills,and only caldari ship skills.so what ships do i loose instanly because of ccp`s poor decisions,


    merlin (wont be able to fitt rocket launchers now)
    cormorant (only turret slots :( , i am very dissapoint about that,every other race has bonuses and slots for what they are focused on)
    ferox (no bonuses for missiles,altough i can fitt 5 missile launchers )
    rokh (do i really need to say??only 4 turret slots,and no bonus damage for them)
    raptor,eagle,naga etc.


    compared to minmatar : all their ships can use projectiles no matter what,and they have enough turret slots and bonuses to worth flying.

    compared to gallente : all gallente ships have turret slots no matter what,except for eris and lachesis,but they also have enough turret slots.

    compared to amarr : all t1 amarr ships will have only turret slots.some t2 ships are specialized on missiles like vengeance,malediction,sacrilege,damnation.<<----this doesnt really fair either.

    please ccp,restore balance,human kind will be greatefull for your workLol
    Kahega Amielden
    Rifterlings
    #332 - 2012-05-11 03:17:04 UTC
    Quote:
    compared to minmatar : all their ships can use projectiles no matter what,and they have enough turret slots and bonuses to worth flying.


    Minmatar have to train armor and shield tanking skills. Caldari just need shields.

    Quote:
    compared to gallente : all gallente ships have turret slots no matter what,except for eris and lachesis,but they also have enough turret slots.


    Even the Gallente turret ships have healthy dronebays. Flying -any- Gallente ship absolutely requires both drone and hybrid skills


    Quote:
    compared to amarr : all t1 amarr ships will have only turret slots.some t2 ships are specialized on missiles like vengeance,malediction,sacrilege,damnation.<<----this doesnt really fair either.


    Amarr are the only race whose primary ship lines only have one theme (Armor tank, lasers)...but they have specialized lines that both rely on drones -and- missiles.
    Tobiaz
    Spacerats
    #333 - 2012-05-11 15:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
    KEEP THE MERLIN AS SNIPER PLATFORM!!!

    Seriously! It has the capability to perform a unique role and CCP takes it away?! OMG WAKE UP!!! There already are plenty of ships in that role, don't add another one if you want Tiercide to be actually successful!

    The fact people are using the Merlin mostly (though not exclusively!) as a brawler is because the Caldari don't HAVE another ship that can fulfill that role! The fact it's plenty used right now, means it's already pretty good as it is, both as optional brawler and as sniper (in which role it has almost no competition).

    Much better to give the Kestrel the ability to function as a rocket-based Caldari brawler with the option to go medium ranged with light missiles. Up it's EHP, CPU and Grid and give it a fourth med slot for tank&tackle.

    Edit: Also the reason why Merlins currently aren't used often as sniper outside RvB, is because frigate snipers really suffer from not being able to speedtank cruisers or even battleships that have enough range to fire back. This is an inherent problem behind CCP's design philosophy converning snipers, not giving them enough sig-tank to compensate for the lack of a EHP buffer, tank and speedtank.

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    Fidelium Mortis
    Minor Major Miners LLC
    #334 - 2012-05-11 17:13:24 UTC
    Tobiaz wrote:
    KEEP THE MERLIN AS SNIPER PLATFORM!!!

    Seriously! It has the capability to perform a unique role and CCP takes it away?! OMG WAKE UP!!! There already are plenty of ships in that role, don't add another one if you want Tiercide to be actually successful!

    The fact people are using the Merlin mostly (though not exclusively!) as a brawler is because the Caldari don't HAVE another ship that can fulfill that role! The fact it's plenty used right now, means it's already pretty good as it is, both as optional brawler and as sniper (in which role it has almost no competition).

    Much better to give the Kestrel the ability to function as a rocket-based Caldari brawler with the option to go medium ranged with light missiles. Up it's EHP, CPU and Grid and give it a fourth med slot for tank&tackle


    Currently the Kestrel is a much better ranged option than the Merlin, and both are hampered by the tradeoff required in managing their low slots (ie. fitting for speed means you need to give up damage). Overall, the Merlin tends to be a better ship due to it's flexibility and tanking ability (also versatile with active or passive tanking options). People use the Merlin as a brawler because it makes a pretty damn good brawler for a T1 frigate no matter which race. For a sniper option, I would hardly consider the Merlin to be unrivaled, since there are other T1 frigs that do a better job of dictating range and doing ranged dps.

    ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
    Lunkwill Khashour
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #335 - 2012-05-11 18:07:43 UTC
    Fidelium Mortis wrote:
    Tobiaz wrote:
    KEEP THE MERLIN AS SNIPER PLATFORM!!!

    Seriously! It has the capability to perform a unique role and CCP takes it away?! OMG WAKE UP!!! There already are plenty of ships in that role, don't add another one if you want Tiercide to be actually successful!

    The fact people are using the Merlin mostly (though not exclusively!) as a brawler is because the Caldari don't HAVE another ship that can fulfill that role! The fact it's plenty used right now, means it's already pretty good as it is, both as optional brawler and as sniper (in which role it has almost no competition).

    Much better to give the Kestrel the ability to function as a rocket-based Caldari brawler with the option to go medium ranged with light missiles. Up it's EHP, CPU and Grid and give it a fourth med slot for tank&tackle


    Currently the Kestrel is a much better ranged option than the Merlin, and both are hampered by the tradeoff required in managing their low slots (ie. fitting for speed means you need to give up damage). Overall, the Merlin tends to be a better ship due to it's flexibility and tanking ability (also versatile with active or passive tanking options). People use the Merlin as a brawler because it makes a pretty damn good brawler for a T1 frigate no matter which race. For a sniper option, I would hardly consider the Merlin to be unrivaled, since there are other T1 frigs that do a better job of dictating range and doing ranged dps.

    Kestrel is better sniper with 40k missiles. Cormorant is way better sniper with 100k spike.
    Fidelium Mortis
    Minor Major Miners LLC
    #336 - 2012-05-11 19:24:51 UTC
    Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
    Fidelium Mortis wrote:
    Tobiaz wrote:
    KEEP THE MERLIN AS SNIPER PLATFORM!!!

    Seriously! It has the capability to perform a unique role and CCP takes it away?! OMG WAKE UP!!! There already are plenty of ships in that role, don't add another one if you want Tiercide to be actually successful!

    The fact people are using the Merlin mostly (though not exclusively!) as a brawler is because the Caldari don't HAVE another ship that can fulfill that role! The fact it's plenty used right now, means it's already pretty good as it is, both as optional brawler and as sniper (in which role it has almost no competition).

    Much better to give the Kestrel the ability to function as a rocket-based Caldari brawler with the option to go medium ranged with light missiles. Up it's EHP, CPU and Grid and give it a fourth med slot for tank&tackle


    Currently the Kestrel is a much better ranged option than the Merlin, and both are hampered by the tradeoff required in managing their low slots (ie. fitting for speed means you need to give up damage). Overall, the Merlin tends to be a better ship due to it's flexibility and tanking ability (also versatile with active or passive tanking options). People use the Merlin as a brawler because it makes a pretty damn good brawler for a T1 frigate no matter which race. For a sniper option, I would hardly consider the Merlin to be unrivaled, since there are other T1 frigs that do a better job of dictating range and doing ranged dps.

    Kestrel is better sniper with 40k missiles. Cormorant is way better sniper with 100k spike.


    ... and the Corm is a destroyer.

    ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
    Cygnet Lythanea
    World Welfare Works Association
    #337 - 2012-05-11 19:55:45 UTC
    You know what would make frigs and dessies more useful? LOS.

    As far as the re-balance goes, it's most likely doomed from the get go. Sure, we switch things up. And that solves....what? People are not flying fewer frigs because they're bad, they're flying fewer frigs because we don't have the sort of new player influx we used to.

    But CCP isn't going to address the underlying issues of that, it might cause another Incarna style backlash in the established community.
    Tobiaz
    Spacerats
    #338 - 2012-05-11 20:34:17 UTC
    Fidelium Mortis wrote:


    Currently the Kestrel is a much better ranged option than the Merlin, and both are hampered by the tradeoff required in managing their low slots (ie. fitting for speed means you need to give up damage). Overall, the Merlin tends to be a better ship due to it's flexibility and tanking ability (also versatile with active or passive tanking options). People use the Merlin as a brawler because it makes a pretty damn good brawler for a T1 frigate no matter which race. For a sniper option, I would hardly consider the Merlin to be unrivaled, since there are other T1 frigs that do a better job of dictating range and doing ranged dps.


    A Merlin can easily kite and outsnipe a Kestrel. A reason why the Kestrel is used at range is because it just hasn't got the tank nor do rockets enough DPS to function as a decent brawler.

    A reason why Merlins are more used as brawlers is because of the fact that frigates don't have enough sig-tank against cruiser or even battleships sniping back, ships like Dramiels and interceptors can close the distance too quickly. Ofcourse Destroyers are lethal as well. but that's not an issue since that is their supposed role.

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    Kaikka Carel
    Ziea
    #339 - 2012-05-12 04:45:40 UTC
    Now if I have 4 low slots in incursus give me a reason not to fit them full-gank?
    Tobiaz
    Spacerats
    #340 - 2012-05-12 10:46:38 UTC
    Kaikka Carel wrote:
    Now if I have 4 low slots in incursus give me a reason not to fit them full-gank?


    Stacking penalty?

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