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New dev blog: Unified inventory

First post First post
Author
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#481 - 2012-05-08 12:41:05 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
Our UI people have been on a tear lately, reshaping EVE's many interfaces and making the experience of using them a lot more pleasant.



Read the Sisi forum on this. 'Pleasant' is the last word that should be used here apparently.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900

Par'Gellen
#482 - 2012-05-08 13:21:32 UTC
I like this. Go!

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

nardaq
Orion Expeditions
#483 - 2012-05-08 16:51:21 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Oh man........ allright.... here we go again. I don't know where to begin. DON'T PANIC! We can fix this.... uhm

Allright... New Invetory. Yes. Ok, here it goes!

[....]

THIS!!!!
no need to say more
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#484 - 2012-05-08 18:37:10 UTC
Looks good to me. anything that reduces the amount of windows in this game is a good thing.

While you are at it, fix the industry window so we can resize it however we want.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#485 - 2012-05-08 18:41:18 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Looks good to me. anything that reduces the amount of windows in this game is a good thing.
…but anything that enforces a reduction below the useful amount is a bad thing. As long as the inventory system is multi-window-unaware, it kind of does that, and that needs to be fixed.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#486 - 2012-05-08 19:51:46 UTC
At the first glipse on sisi I tought, "WTF CCP Did!!!" and then I played on sisi for about 5 hours... now i fell unconfortable about the tranquility!!! This new item management sistem is verry god, people will fell unconfortable about it in the beguinning, but they will like it more and more as they will use it....

But I still have some doubts about it... expecialy about how it will work in the POS like:

1 - Can we now separate ower items from other corp members inside the hangars in diferent folders?

2- Can we now separate ower ships in the SMA from other corp members in diferent folders?
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#487 - 2012-05-08 22:22:14 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
...people will fell unconfortable about it in the beguinning, but they will like it more and more as they will use it....


I can guarantee to you that it may be case with you and many other people, but then there are people like myself and many more who are thinking just the opposite. It may be difficult to understand but it is the the cold truth to this.

If this goes to inferno without proper multi window support, there shall be plenty of tears and it will ruin good expansion from great many. If CCP fails to understand the feedback and fundamental issues behind the design of this thing at least I'm forced to think that they didn't learn anything from reasons behind failcarna.

The real question at the moment is do they have guts to pull this from the launch or shall we get some desperate last minute patch and nice speech how to adapt or die.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest

Blue Harrier
#488 - 2012-05-08 22:37:45 UTC
Having tried out the new UI a bit more today I’ve come to the conclusion that for people who stay in station docked most of the time it works. A bit clunky but it works, everything is there and you can open as many windows as you wish and access all your stuff from the one window.

Where it falls down with a resounding crash is flying in space, then the single window, shift click for everything is a disaster. It takes far too long to do things, nothing is consistent, you use shift click in one place, right click in another and double click somewhere else.

Windows open where you last opened the last window not where you last opened the actual window. If you shift click many windows they open in cascade format not tiled back to where you set them up and just as you need to see the ship firing at you, you click the cargo button and the screen vanishes under the inventory window.

Don’t get me started on trying to access the Orca bays in space, talk about a mess…

Sorry CCP, a good try but it just don’t work in practice unless you’re docked, and if you really want some fun, dock with a cargo hold full of assorted junk and try dragging and dropping it into multiple open cargo containers to sort while storing it, then try changing ships and fitting the ship from the same containers but after you closed them and have to re-open them.

"You wait - time passes, Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold." from The Hobbit on ZX Spectrum 1982.

Invisusira
Escalated.
Project Gungnir.
#489 - 2012-05-09 00:37:18 UTC
Please do take a moment to look through this thread:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=104539

which garners quite the opposite reaction over this new UI. A lot of very valid concerns about intuitive UI design - and how this new one is, in fact, a step backwards - are raised. (Shift click? Why not double click, like any normal human would expect since graphic UIs were first invented?)
Jackie Cross
MacGyver Communications
Minerva Exalt Holdings
#490 - 2012-05-09 01:59:34 UTC
I remember my first summer in EvE with this character. I was part of a mining op as a hauler, a Badger mk II with 7-8 GSC.
I spent about 80% warping, 15% moving to cans or looting them, 5% in station. Part of the time I spent in station was waiting for Scotty to get his arse into gear and let me undock. It was quick, easy and kind to me, even though I was stressed to the sun and back.
With this new system? I wouldn't agree to hauling.
I would spend perhaps 50% warping, 5% moving about in the belt; the rest of the time navigating the inventory. Be it shift-clicking to open new windows, be it moving within windows, be it cursing the person that coded it; I wouldn't be happy.

I don't even want to test how it'd work with an orca. I don't want to get angry enough to put my fist through the screen.

This is a fantastic system, for assets.
/bittervet?
Di Mulle
#491 - 2012-05-09 08:33:33 UTC
Ability for windows to stay where I put them and in what form I put them was always crucial for me. And CCP was messing with this like forever. Be it new patch, or just some glitch, bam - I need to redo everything from the scratch. And that was rather unintentional from their side, they just didn't understand the issue enough and not cared enough.

And that was a primary source for my hatred for CCP - even way bigger than crap like Incarna was.

Now they are doing that rather intentionally. What feelings I should have now ?

No amount of goodies and shinies (and they are also present in this new system, no sarcasm) are going to sell me that annoyance.

<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
Blue Harrier
#492 - 2012-05-09 10:59:16 UTC
First an instance of a problem with the new UI system, then what I think (may not be agreeable to others) might give everyone the best of both worlds and solve a lot of the problems.

First the problem;
Situation, I am docked in my Orca
Open the new Inventory window
Title bar shows ‘Inventory: ship name (active ship) (Orca)’
Leave the window open
Drag and drop a ship (my Helios), from the merged ‘Ships’ tab in the station services window
Ship changes in the background (fine, expected)

Inventory title stays the same ‘Inventory: ship name (active ship) (Orca)’
Highlight bar in the tree view moves down the list staying on the Orca
The Helios has now moved to the top of the list but is not highlighted, it is however shown in the tree view list as the active ship
The right hand window still shows the contents of the Orca’s cargo hold not the Helios’s.
I have to (scroll if a long list of ships) to the top of the tree view and click to highlight the active ship to display the contents of the cargo hold

The above change of active ships should change the contents of the ‘Active Window’ by default I should not have to click and highlight the selection myself.

Now what I consider would be most helpful and make the UI more consistent for everyone;

It stems from the fact that on TQ a right click, select and click an item, opens a new window. It does not matter if this is a container, new ship, cargo hold or the market.

This simple functionality should peculate over to the new UI. Right clicking any object, list, icon whatever, should give a selection and clicking it should just open a new window, be that the (default) inventory, or a last know position and settings for that object, window, whatever.

We then have the best of both worlds, those that want the new UI can open it with the new Neocom button, those that need single open windows can use the right click menus and it remains consistent with how TQ works at the moment.

"You wait - time passes, Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold." from The Hobbit on ZX Spectrum 1982.

Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#493 - 2012-05-09 11:05:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
I'm not trying to derail the topic too much here, but got to write this down...

For quite some time there has been certain pattern in way how these updates have been planned, created and delivered. Unfortunately it shows without any doubt that there is not enough, if any, research about player behaviour during the planning process and the will to change/fix usability issues after features have been delivered is rather limited.

I list some of the stuff here which probably explain what I'm talking about here.

Lets go back some time and start with the keyboard short cut update. It was really wonderful thing and still mostly is However there were severe problems during the implementation and several months, patches and tries were needed before it reached it's current state. Worst thing is that it still doesn't work how it should have been working and that this behaviour mirrored also some problems to overview update later.

So... what went wrong with that one? It is very simple. CCP didn't study the player behaviour enough and didn't quite realize that there are 2 completely different ways players use their short cut keys. Others hold them down while clicking some function - others select the function 1st and then press the short cut key.

This would have been really easy to take into account while planning the feature update. It would had taken only one esc menu option to separate these 2 playing styles entirely, but that is not what happened. Instead thing got released broken, patched, patched and finished product efficiently tries to combine these 2 playing styles under one short cut mechanism fits to all feature.

In itself there is nothing wrong in this as long it would actually work as well it did before and do nothing you don't expect it to do. However as many are aware this actually wasn't the case and those who were using method to "hold down short cut key + click function" know, that all in one solution is much worse for them than the original usability ever was. In other words new system still causes accidental activations of functions they don't want to activate.

--- continued in next post ---

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest

Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#494 - 2012-05-09 11:06:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
--- continued from previous post ---

Then as I said - there is the indirect ramification factor in these things. Overview update which took place not so long ago was really nice - mostly. It followed pretty much the same pattern than keyboard SC-update. The way people select their targets and want the overview to lock was still not researched and taken into account properly. Feature was pushed to tranq and damage control took place in form of several patches when stuff was partially researched afterwards.

Again end result was one size fits for all solution, ignoring that there are 2 ways how people lock and interact with targets. Others hold some keyboard short cut key down,. expect that overview gets locked then, and click target they want to interact with. Then there is the another half who want to select targets 1st and and interact with them later. They obviously expect that their overview gets locked when scrolling the overview up and down with keys and might want it to lock also when mousing over it (just like it does now). Then again both players would most likely want to have/set optional short cut key to manually lock the overview when that key is held down/toggled.

End result with overview update was, that usability is worse again for the same group of people who got boot to the head during the keyboard short cut update. Performance of that thing increased and many other stuff looks better, but usability is not the same. It works - yes. Is it what it could have been with couple options in esc menu? Not even close.

Then we hop to neocom project. I've talked a lot about this recently and probably will continue to do so for quite obvious reasons. This was 3rd major example what happens when user interaction and reasoning behind clients functions is not researched before going for the complete overhaul of existing feature.

I'm not going to go too deep with this one as this post is very big wall already. I'll just do some listing about part of the issues which are still worse than they were before the entire neocom update. I'm sure you can draw your conclusions from there.

- There is no task bar in bottom of the screen any more. This makes using multible chat windows and information/blinking in their labels much more inconvenient/impossible.
--> People used to like their single chat windows blinking in bottom bar. This gave clear indication when there was new chatter waiting in any of them. You could bring the correct chat up with one click if you wanted to do so and still have choice to ignore the other unimportant blinky ones if preferred to do so.
--> You could see member amounts in minimized windows, for example how many members in local or when new people log into corporation chat.
--> Minimize buttons all together in windows are pretty useless now. Before you could minimize "work in progress" windows to bottom bar, keep track and cycle between them easily. Now they minimize to neocom bar and it is pretty hard/impossible to even start figuring which one is open and what does their label say.
- Blinking doesn't work properly and is really annoying. It activates on event, but no longer blink only couple times and leave icon highlighted. It doesn't re-blink after each new event any more either.
--> the chat button blinks for all the chats and distracts even there wasn't anything important going on in the chats you need to follow in that particular moment. In other words entire button is horrible idea.
--> blinking windows stop blinking when you briefly mouse over them. In other words when you press for example character sheet button at top of the neocom bar and move your mouse to undock button, none of your windows blink any more. Blink should stop after small delay when tool tip appears or when icon is accessed instead (and as I said constant blink is bad thing to start with).
- Date is missing from clock. May sound like minor issue but it is still an issue well known by the developers.
- Char name is missing and making multi client users life little harder if portrait icons look the same.
- Generic "zero use" icons are appearing to bar when doing various tasks or opening windows. They are also missing labels which we had when stuff could be minimized to bottom bar.

...so all in all - what to expect to get from unified inventory after this. It doesn't take much to see the picture and probably explains why I'm having some negative mood and expectations.

There is this saying that "you can't please everyone". Then there is this saying "you can't please everyone if you don't even try". Now which one describes CCP the best. This is not rocket science.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#495 - 2012-05-09 11:15:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Looks good to me. anything that reduces the amount of windows in this game is a good thing.
…but anything that enforces a reduction below the useful amount is a bad thing. As long as the inventory system is multi-window-unaware, it kind of does that, and that needs to be fixed.


Have they removed any existing functionality or increased the number of clicks required to do what we can do now?
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#496 - 2012-05-09 11:19:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Looks good to me. anything that reduces the amount of windows in this game is a good thing.
…but anything that enforces a reduction below the useful amount is a bad thing. As long as the inventory system is multi-window-unaware, it kind of does that, and that needs to be fixed.


(serious face)

I have been on Sisi to use this 'thing' called the Inventory Window.

You now have a brand new shiny enemy.

THIS will cause the most anger since 'The Door' once it's live. No BS.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900

Blue Harrier
#497 - 2012-05-09 11:28:46 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Looks good to me. anything that reduces the amount of windows in this game is a good thing.
…but anything that enforces a reduction below the useful amount is a bad thing. As long as the inventory system is multi-window-unaware, it kind of does that, and that needs to be fixed.


Have they removed any existing functionality or increased the number of clicks required to do what we can do now?


Both;

By removing a lot of the options on the right click menus they have removed functionality.
By not allowing a right click option to open a new window they have added extra clicks and reduced functionality.

And by making opening extra windows by shift clicking, scrolling the tree view, and minimising and maximising the tree view made many, many extra clicks and time wasted. Unless of course you only stay docked so you can open all your windows once and keep them that way.

"You wait - time passes, Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold." from The Hobbit on ZX Spectrum 1982.

Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#498 - 2012-05-09 11:39:01 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:

Have they removed any existing functionality or increased the number of clicks required to do what we can do now?


Clicks

Scrollbars Shocked

and DropDowns !

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900

Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#499 - 2012-05-09 12:09:50 UTC
This new inventory is like the $200 single cup tea maker I receive as a Christmas gift a few years ago. Some cool options, but ultimately way more hassle than it is worth.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.

Rammix
TheMurk
#500 - 2012-05-09 12:51:38 UTC
Tiger's Spirit, if something is idiotism - it's always idiotism, whether said by a noob or not; when it's not - it's always not.
I don't believe in experience and prefer to use brains. Because it only can compensate lack of knowledge/acumen but is useless by itself, that is why I don't ever see experience as a valid argument. Only as something to manipulate me into accepting an alien opinion.

Secondly, seems you and I look at new UI from totally different points of view: I prefer more mouse clicking instead of typing; using inventory is less than 10% of my ingame activity; I don't need 10+ windows open, even if needed new system would suit me. My set of modules in POS hangar doesn't change very often, and customizeable filters will help a lot to find modules for fitting on my ships.

I don't understand people who panic at first sight of a new feature. It's NEW, give it some time, it's meaningless to curse it beforehand. You must accept, it has good sides, so just turn on your patience, give feedback to CCP about what you want (without arguing through 25 pages of the topic and using offensive words) and wait until this new UI improves.
I've said enough.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread