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The Supercapital Nerf
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Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#1 - 2011-09-27 20:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaiimez Skor
Right, i'm just giving this thread a rewrite since i've had new ideas in relation to this, as previously mentioned I disagree with the rumoured changes to supercapitals that i'm seeing on the internet for all I know this could be nothing more than rumours but these are what I feel the best way to nerf the supercapitals are for the game.

Titans:
Originally I wasn't sure of idea's on how best to nerf these, but I remembered a few idea's I had, firstly the obvious one that everyone has suggested, reduce the tracking on guns to cause them to be unable to hit smaller ships, but as for the doomsday, there is a simple way to stop it being used on subcapitals, as well as a valid ingame story for the reason why, make the doomsday unable to fire upon anything without a regular capital jump drive, make the "technology" require some kind of signature that a jump drives give off for the doomsday weapon to get a successful lock on to fire. That way you will be unable to fire upon subcapitals and there is a valid ingame reason/story.

Supercarriers:
This is one that I was sure about, make all supercarriers have similar basic bonuses to the Revenant, where it only holds the capability to launch 10 drones at any one time, but give it a 100% bonus to Fighter Bomber Damage, giving it the effective damage it currently has against capitals, while reducing the number of drones it can launch limits the capabilities it has against subcapital ships giving subcapitals more of a chance while not removing the suppercarriers ability to defend itself from subcapitals entirely

As I said previously I agree a nerf is needed however the idea's i've read that involve removing the supercarriers e-war immunity and making it unable to launch anything except fighters and fighter bombers are going too far and will go beyond a nerf and will make supercapitals underpowered, they are still called SUPERcapitals for a reason. I personally feel this is the best way forward to ensure they're still worth the money and effort they take to build.
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#2 - 2011-09-27 20:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mendolus
Jaiimez Skor wrote:

...in essence a lone heavy interdictor can tackle a supercarrier for hours and the supercarrier will never be able to do anything about it.


Good.

Maybe then we will stop seeing super capitals used as toys in low sec and for pure entertainment value because it takes an armada to nuke one down and the chances of a response fleet forming in time are slim to none before they cyno back out after a near solo kill on a pos, station, or gate. Super capitals should require a support fleet, or they should diaf without one, period.

We have a 'camping Nyx' in one our systems right now, that runs around with relative impunity incapping our pos tower weapons daily. I mean wtf is this bs? Why doesn't CCP just give everyone a super capital when they dock at a station, instead of a noobship? At the rate things are going that will be the only option for some of us once every other pilot in the major coalitions owns and flies a super capital and the rest of us are left to sit back and watch.

And yes, I have a capital pilot, and he can fit and fly super capitals, so in before the 'u jelly' responses!

Maybe jealous because I do not own one, but I miss the old motherships personally, they were better than the slop we have now, would rather a ship be slightly underpowered than completely overwhelmingly dominant (read: Falcons in small to medium combat before the nerf).

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#3 - 2011-09-27 20:20:52 UTC
Using a real world analogy, does any navy in the world send out it's capital ships without a task force to support them?
Can you imagine the U.S. sending out a Nimitz class super-carrier out alone?

Super-carriers in Eve should require the same kind of support fleet, and that support fleet should not be other super caps.
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2011-09-27 20:21:10 UTC
Mendolus wrote:
Jaiimez Skor wrote:

...in essence a lone heavy interdictor can tackle a supercarrier for hours and the supercarrier will never be able to do anything about it.


Good.
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#5 - 2011-09-27 20:22:56 UTC
Mendolus wrote:
Jaiimez Skor wrote:

...in essence a lone heavy interdictor can tackle a supercarrier for hours and the supercarrier will never be able to do anything about it.


Good.

Maybe then we will stop seeing super capitals used as toys in low sec and for pure entertainment value because it takes an armada to nuke one down and the chances of a response fleet forming in time are slim to none before they cyno back out after a near solo kill on a pos, station, or gate. Super capitals should require a support fleet, or they should diaf without one, period.

We have a 'camping Nyx' in one our systems right now, that runs around with relative impunity incapping our pos tower weapons daily. I mean wtf is this bs? Why doesn't CCP just give everyone a super capital when they dock at a station, instead of a noobship.

And yes, I have a capital pilot, and he can fit and fly super capitals, so in before the 'u jelly' responses!

Maybe jealous because I do not own one, but I miss the old motherships personally, they were better than the slop we have now, would rather a ship be slightly underpowered than completely overwhelmingly dominant (read: Falcons in small to medium combat before the nerf).

But what I am suggesting is hindering a supercarriers ability to destroy that heavy interdictor, I do not like the idea of a supercarrier being completely defenceless against something small than a battleship, I believe that they still need to have the ability to do something against small ships, but they do also need to be made so that something is far less than what it currently is now, by halfing the drones a supercarrier can launch and with no damage bonus to regular for example Ogre II's it would take twice the time for a lone supercarrier to take down a Heavy Interdictor, enabling the HIC'tors fleet more time to get there and kill the supercarrier, but at the same time making it so that they don't get forever, removing all drones from a supercarrier will mean effectively he can have the supercarrier tackled for 20 minutes, an hour, 5 hours without the supercarrier able to do anything without having backup travel, which if he's far away from home, could take a while.

Make it so it maybe would take a supercarrier 10/20 minutes to kill that heavy interdictor instead of the minute or 2 it can take now, because if the heavy interdictor's support fleet havn't got there within 10 minutes then they really shouldn't be trying to kill a supercarrier.
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#6 - 2011-09-27 20:25:18 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Using a real world analogy, does any navy in the world send out it's capital ships without a task force to support them?
Can you imagine the U.S. sending out a Nimitz class super-carrier out alone?

Super-carriers in Eve should require the same kind of support fleet, and that support fleet should not be other super caps.

I understand what you are saying, however I ask you this, is the said ship you are speaking of (I am not american so do not know exactly what the ship you speak of it) completely defenceless against a smaller ship, it would surely have defence methods to defend itself from smaller ships or targets, however it would not be as effective against them as it would be against say for example a larger target, this is what I am suggest, make Supercarriers very ineffective against subcapitals, but don't make them 100% defenceless against them.
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#7 - 2011-09-27 20:27:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mendolus
Jaiimez Skor wrote:

But what I am suggesting is hindering a supercarriers ability to destroy that heavy interdictor, I do not like the idea of a supercarrier being completely defenceless against something small than a battleship


I understand that, but given that super capitals are immune to all electronic warfare except a focus script I see no reason why they should also be able to easily dispatch one of the few things that can render them immobile long enough for a kill, let alone the logoffski problems to begin with.

Just because I can be jammed out by a Scorpion pilot while flying my battlecruiser (as an example) does not mean battlecruisers are somehow useless or inconsequential.

Everything has a legitimate and practical counter, but the only practical counter for super capitals at present, is other super capitals. EVE is a sandbox, and that <<< is not a sandbox, it's an artificial convention, that needs to go.

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
Spectre80
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-09-27 20:31:19 UTC
**** supercapitals
mkint
#9 - 2011-09-27 20:32:36 UTC
Jaiimez Skor wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Using a real world analogy, does any navy in the world send out it's capital ships without a task force to support them?
Can you imagine the U.S. sending out a Nimitz class super-carrier out alone?

Super-carriers in Eve should require the same kind of support fleet, and that support fleet should not be other super caps.

I understand what you are saying, however I ask you this, is the said ship you are speaking of (I am not american so do not know exactly what the ship you speak of it) completely defenceless against a smaller ship, it would surely have defence methods to defend itself from smaller ships or targets, however it would not be as effective against them as it would be against say for example a larger target, this is what I am suggest, make Supercarriers very ineffective against subcapitals, but don't make them 100% defenceless against them.

There was a set of wargames done a while ago as a test to prove that modern war science will win America the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The defenders were sinking the supercarriers with rowboats and dynamite. 'nuff said. (Of course the proctors of the test deemed the defenders to have cheated, and the test was re-done civil war style to get the desired results, but that's politics for you.)

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#10 - 2011-09-27 20:36:29 UTC
Mendolus wrote:
Jaiimez Skor wrote:

But what I am suggesting is hindering a supercarriers ability to destroy that heavy interdictor, I do not like the idea of a supercarrier being completely defenceless against something small than a battleship


I understand that, but given that super capitals are immune to all electronic warfare except a focus script I see no reason why they should also be able to easily dispatch one of the few things that can render them immobile long enough for a kill, let alone the logoffski problems to begin with.

Just because I can be jammed out by a Scorpion pilot while flying my battlecruiser (as an example) does not mean battlecruisers are somehow useless or inconsequential.

Everything has a legitimate and practical counter, but the only practical counter for super capitals at present, is other super capitals. EVE is a sandbox, and that <<< is not a sandbox, it's an artificial convention, that needs to go.

I totally agree but here is another example of why I don't agree with completely nerfing their ability against subcapitals, say for example said supercarrier pilot is just moving his nyx from 1 system to another via a couple of cyno's, you wouldn't normally have a support fleet for moving a supercarrier when you are not expecting combat, but say for exmaple he gets unlucky and during one of his midpoints a passing small 5/10 man roaming gang catch him and they have a heavy interdictor with them, now there is 1 of 2 things, either #1 the supercarrier will have his alliance put up a support fleet and they will have to come in to save him, or #2 the roaming gang will get backup in with more firepower to kill the supercarrier, both of these methods depending on their timezones and locations from the event can take anything from 5 minutes to an hour to prepare, what you are saying is that the supercarrier at this point has the choice, #1 hope his support fleet arrive before the enemy backup, #2 Log off and pray the backup doesn't kill him in the 15 minute window, #3 sit and watch as his supercarrier gets killed.

I believe that there should be an option #4, kill the lone heavy interdictor, however with the nerf i've suggest this may take it supercarrier 10/20 minutes to do, but it can still defend itself from a small group of unprepared players, without it being able to entirely annihilate a fleet of subcapitals.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#11 - 2011-09-27 20:47:03 UTC
mkint wrote:
[quote=Jaiimez Skor]
There was a set of wargames done a while ago as a test to prove that modern war science will win America the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The defenders were sinking the supercarriers with rowboats and dynamite. 'nuff said. (Of course the proctors of the test deemed the defenders to have cheated, and the test was re-done civil war style to get the desired results, but that's politics for you.)


It seems that those proctors never heard of the old saying, "all is fair in love and war."

How did you Veterans start?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#12 - 2011-09-27 20:47:47 UTC
Jaiimez Skor wrote:

I understand what you are saying, however I ask you this, is the said ship you are speaking of (I am not american so do not know exactly what the ship you speak of it) completely defenceless against a smaller ship, it would surely have defence methods to defend itself from smaller ships or targets, however it would not be as effective against them as it would be against say for example a larger target, this is what I am suggest, make Supercarriers very ineffective against subcapitals, but don't make them 100% defenceless against them.


A Nimitz class aircraft carrier is the most potent individual ship on the planet, outside of a nuclear missile fleet sub.
The purpose of a aircraft carrier is force projection, which is the same role as a supercarrier in Eve.

A Nimitz class aircraft carrier does indeed have defenses against almost any other boat that floats on or below the surface of an ocean. But they SO MUCH MORE vulnerable when they don't have 2-3 Los Angeles class subs, 4-6 anti-sub and anti-aircraft destroyers, and a Tico class command ship/missle cruiser sweeping the seas around them.

Without that protection, a single diesel-electric sub MIGHT be able to cripple a Nimitz, with a couple well-aimed, lucky torpedos. That same sub would have zero chance if the Nimitz detected it before the sub could fire its torps.

The same concept should apply to Eve.
Consider your Heavy Interdictor example.
The Heavy Interdictor cannot kill a supercarrier by itself. It can possibly pin down the supercarrier.
Now, if the supercarrier had support ships with it capable of destroying the Heavy Dic, then we would have a more reasonable situation.

I would like to see a ship out there that has the same capability as my diesel-electric sub scenario.
Imagine a ship class that has zero chance of killing a supercap, but something that would have the ability to approach by stealth, and have a small percentage chance to cripple the supercap IF, and I repeat IF, the supercarrier has no smaller support ships.

Imagine a Black ops class BS that could fire a weapon that has a percentage chance to kill the jump and warp capabilities of the super cap for say, 2 hours. Plus the said supercarrier COULD NOT LOG OFF GRID for the same time.
Lithalnas
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Sedition.
#13 - 2011-09-27 20:51:07 UTC
Quote:
Imagine a Black ops class BS that could fire a weapon that has a percentage chance to kill the jump and warp capabilities of the super cap for say, 2 hours. Plus the said supercarrier COULD NOT LOG OFF GRID for the same time


black ops being used as the anti super wepon has been tossed around quite a bit. No word from ccp on what they are actually going to do.

Myself, black ops ships with anti cap bombs and a covert cloak. BS sized steath bombers FTW

https://www.facebook.com/RipSeanVileRatSmith shoot at blue for Vile Rat http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73406
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#14 - 2011-09-27 21:06:41 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Jaiimez Skor wrote:

I understand what you are saying, however I ask you this, is the said ship you are speaking of (I am not american so do not know exactly what the ship you speak of it) completely defenceless against a smaller ship, it would surely have defence methods to defend itself from smaller ships or targets, however it would not be as effective against them as it would be against say for example a larger target, this is what I am suggest, make Supercarriers very ineffective against subcapitals, but don't make them 100% defenceless against them.


A Nimitz class aircraft carrier is the most potent individual ship on the planet, outside of a nuclear missile fleet sub.
The purpose of a aircraft carrier is force projection, which is the same role as a supercarrier in Eve.

A Nimitz class aircraft carrier does indeed have defenses against almost any other boat that floats on or below the surface of an ocean. But they SO MUCH MORE vulnerable when they don't have 2-3 Los Angeles class subs, 4-6 anti-sub and anti-aircraft destroyers, and a Tico class command ship/missle cruiser sweeping the seas around them.

Without that protection, a single diesel-electric sub MIGHT be able to cripple a Nimitz, with a couple well-aimed, lucky torpedos. That same sub would have zero chance if the Nimitz detected it before the sub could fire its torps.

The same concept should apply to Eve.
Consider your Heavy Interdictor example.
The Heavy Interdictor cannot kill a supercarrier by itself. It can possibly pin down the supercarrier.
Now, if the supercarrier had support ships with it capable of destroying the Heavy Dic, then we would have a more reasonable situation.

I would like to see a ship out there that has the same capability as my diesel-electric sub scenario.
Imagine a ship class that has zero chance of killing a supercap, but something that would have the ability to approach by stealth, and have a small percentage chance to cripple the supercap IF, and I repeat IF, the supercarrier has no smaller support ships.

Imagine a Black ops class BS that could fire a weapon that has a percentage chance to kill the jump and warp capabilities of the super cap for say, 2 hours. Plus the said supercarrier COULD NOT LOG OFF GRID for the same time.


I am liking your idea, however on the negative side 2 hours that would require a fleet of people to waste 2 hours of their time, including the supercapital pilot, who may have plans and stuff todo, to remain at his computer for 2 hours to ensure the safety of his supercapital, good idea of having a small ship that can cripple a supercarrier however I don't think removing it's ability to do anything for 2 hours is the right solution.

But as by what you said, the Nimitz can defend itself from pretty much all types off threats, however it is most effective against large targets, which is what it should be like in eve, the currently flaw is that they are TOO effective against smaller targets, and that needs to be nerfed, which is what my idea suggests, however what others are saying it suggesting removing it's solo defence capabilities all together, instead of just limiting them severly.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#15 - 2011-09-27 21:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Renan Ruivo
Why this thread again? Wait until CCP reveals their plan on dealing with scarriers. Then discuss.

Or you think Soundwave will come to this specific thread, see someone's specific "What if" or "Imagine if" idea, say its awesome and that they're doing it that way?

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Spectre80
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-09-27 21:49:07 UTC
i think there should be even more threads about supers. so much that ccp would not have any other option but to use super doomsday and purge all super abominations from this game. that would be really super.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#17 - 2011-09-27 22:32:32 UTC
Spectre80 wrote:
i think there should be even more threads about supers. so much that ccp would not have any other option but to use super doomsday and purge all super abominations from this game. that would be really super.


If i had a supercarried, i'd call it "Afatottari". How would CCP like that ^^

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Angel Uitoh
Doomheim
#18 - 2011-09-27 22:46:42 UTC
Motherships, or "Super Carriers" as they are now called should be a true "Mothership". In essence a POS that can drop drones for support, one you can cyno about (as you can now), stage from as a semi-permanent corp base - and shoot (imagine reinforcing a 20b POS?).

A mothership would be a nomads wet dream, an invading alliances best friend, a defending alliances saviour.

What CCP lack is not vision, what they lack are the balls to press ahead with drastic changes despite the purile nerd rage sperged from people who really do need to get a grip on reality.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-09-27 22:49:50 UTC
Lithalnas wrote:
Quote:
Imagine a Black ops class BS that could fire a weapon that has a percentage chance to kill the jump and warp capabilities of the super cap for say, 2 hours. Plus the said supercarrier COULD NOT LOG OFF GRID for the same time


Myself, black ops ships with anti cap bombs and a covert cloak. BS sized steath bombers FTW


my pants.... they are wet with joy Shocked
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#20 - 2011-09-30 08:32:14 UTC
Thread rewritten to include Titan nerf idea's.
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