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CSM 7 - We Should Not Accept This Behavior!!

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Dovinian
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#161 - 2012-03-27 20:59:01 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
My statement on the Mitanni (and incidentally Issler "accepting" his apology though she sure doesn't act like it)

For me statement on Isslergate: At this point, you're doing more harm to the CSM than anything Mitanni has done. And I'd tell you that in person if you bothered talking to the rest of us.

Other members of the CSM have summed up what I would have said so I won't just recycle what they have stated.

It's pretty simple. Alex made a mistake, he owned it and is working on taking the steps to make it right.

Issler, you're not doing your constituents any favors by your actions and decisions, you're absolutely causing more harm than solving whatever issues you have.
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2012-03-27 20:59:57 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
I'm not throwing anyone under the bus, I'm responding to the players that elected me to take a stand. And that only a few other of the CSM feels a need to provide the same player representation is puzzling. To stay quiet and worry about "the message" behind closed doors is exactly what the players fear about the CSM's lack of transparency to the players.

Michelle, might I suggest that the best way you could be of service to the players is to get your NDA signed so we can get you on skype and explain what is going on?

I do not think it is unreasonable for us to take a collective breath and take a day or two to decide on the best course of action, and that decision is one that you should be involved in.

Best
Trebor

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#163 - 2012-03-27 21:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Issler Dainze wrote:
Sad to see I was the only CSM 7 member to go on the record with my outrage at the incident.

We got what I believe is a sincere apology now the question I believe is before CSM 7, CCP and most importantly the players. "is that enough"?

Issler


No, Issler, it isn't. And being an experienced political operator, I think you know why.

Despite how utterly reprehensible that was, there is nothing of morality in this, it is simple political reality:

Any perceived support of Mittani through this will tar you all with that brush, especially as a lot of people still see the CSM as a monolithic "nullsec mafia," and given how disgusting that incident was, that would be political--and ergo sum, operational in the year ahead--suicide for even the most respected CSMs.

You need to cut your losses and wash your hands of that filth, in as harsh, open, and expedient a manner as possible.

Sorry, Mittens: But maybe this'll teach you a thing or two about holding your liquor? Typical yuppie lightweight!

TL/DR:

Mittani has turned himself into a very, very big loose end for you on the CSM, and arguably for EVE in general if some of what I've seen in the broader gaming press is any indication.

Tie up that loose end. Like, immediately.

E: Oh, look: Damage-control re "The Mittani Faces Outcry" news-item in the fine ::CCP:: tradition!

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#164 - 2012-03-27 21:06:16 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:


There isn't anything to think about. Either you thought what Mittens did was OK and sit on the sidelines (or even seem to support him) or you honestly address the players with your thoughts and what outcomes you think are appropriate.


Why isn't there anything to think about? Sometimes "the right thing to do" and "the best thing to do" are not the same thing, even if all involved agree as far as whether something was right or wrong (questions of morality do often tend to polarize people, especially if those who view things as mostly black and white become involved). (NB, I'm using "right" here as meaning something synonymous with "moral" rather than "the right course of action", which I'm explicitly saying are not always one and the same.)

I think it's necessary for the CSM to eventually communicate their stance on the situation, but it's completely unnecessary for the *entire* dialog to be conducted in public, or to demand that each person take a stance at once. They may have their mind made up on the subject of whether what Mittens said was okay or not, but they may not necessarily feel comfortable saying with certainty what their stance on Mitts and the CSM position is because they may not be sure if they are missing something (as a result of personal bias, not being privy to some information, hangovers, travel stress, you name it). Deciding on a course of action that will have fairly significant effects is usually a good idea after you've viewed the issue from many sides and, if possible, discussed it with others. Once again, the decision you come to believe is a good one when it comes to Mittens staying or leaving may contradict your personal opinion of the morality of his actions, and that's okay because sometimes you have to put your opinions aside when working for others' benefit.

Anyway, I think it would be good if you chilled out on the passionate posting until after this Skype meeting, Issler. It's beginning to feel like a stubborn rant.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#165 - 2012-03-27 21:06:24 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
My statement on the Mitanni (and incidentally Issler "accepting" his apology though she sure doesn't act like it)

For me statement on Isslergate: At this point, you're doing more harm to the CSM than anything Mitanni has done. And I'd tell you that in person if you bothered talking to the rest of us.


I'm pretty sure when the players in multiple threads in general asked what the CSM thought of the incident they expected an answer in the forums, not in a private Skype channel.

Sorry, but this didn't need a hive mind meeting to come up with a cleverly crafted collective message. The rest of the CSM staying quiet is what is damaging the CSM.

Ask yourself what your message from your silence is to the people the elected you.

Even if the other CSM members had share something as simple as "Yes, it seems as though many found the action offensive we are happy to see Mittens has offered an apology in the forums and we are working with CCP to make sure the best interests of the players and Eve in general are the focus of whatever action results from their investigation." you would have been better than trying to focus this on me because I responded to the players and took a stand.

I've said what I needed to say. I hope the other CSM will now give the players what they deserve when they elected you.

As for Skype and not talking to you, not really an option while I'm at work, sorry. I'll be on soon enough, can't wait for that. Roll

Issler
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#166 - 2012-03-27 21:07:59 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
I'm not throwing anyone under the bus, I'm responding to the players that elected me to take a stand. And that only a few other of the CSM feels a need to provide the same player representation is puzzling. To stay quiet and worry about "the message" behind closed doors is exactly what the players fear about the CSM's lack of transparency to the players.

Michelle, might I suggest that the best way you could be of service to the players is to get your NDA signed so we can get you on skype and explain what is going on?

I do not think it is unreasonable for us to take a collective breath and take a day or two to decide on the best course of action, and that decision is one that you should be involved in.

Best
Trebor


My NDA is on place, has been for years. I've posted my last post in my position.

I should be on Skype this evening.

Issler
Della Monk
Monastery of Drakes
#167 - 2012-03-27 21:10:45 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
I'm pretty sure when the players in multiple threads in general asked what the CSM thought of the incident they expected an answer in the forums, not in a private Skype channel.


Nah, I expected to hear they were discussing it and for a collective response to come shortly after.
You know, like CSM6 did to great effect. Keeping track of all you politikers is too much effort
Aiden Andraste
State War Academy
Caldari State
#168 - 2012-03-27 21:23:42 UTC
Della Monk wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
I'm pretty sure when the players in multiple threads in general asked what the CSM thought of the incident they expected an answer in the forums, not in a private Skype channel.


Nah, I expected to hear they were discussing it and for a collective response to come shortly after.
You know, like CSM6 did to great effect. Keeping track of all you politikers is too much effort

Why bother present a unified front? Michelle here obviously feels she can take the reigns and charge ahead without any concern for Alex or the rest of the CSM. You people elected this emotionally unstable child. Congrats~
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#169 - 2012-03-27 21:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde
Issler Dainze wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
My statement on the Mitanni (and incidentally Issler "accepting" his apology though she sure doesn't act like it)

For me statement on Isslergate: At this point, you're doing more harm to the CSM than anything Mitanni has done. And I'd tell you that in person if you bothered talking to the rest of us.


I'm pretty sure when the players in multiple threads in general asked what the CSM thought of the incident they expected an answer in the forums, not in a private Skype channel.

Sorry, but this didn't need a hive mind meeting to come up with a cleverly crafted collective message. The rest of the CSM staying quiet is what is damaging the CSM.

Ask yourself what your message from your silence is to the people the elected you.

Even if the other CSM members had share something as simple as "Yes, it seems as though many found the action offensive we are happy to see Mittens has offered an apology in the forums and we are working with CCP to make sure the best interests of the players and Eve in general are the focus of whatever action results from their investigation." you would have been better than trying to focus this on me because I responded to the players and took a stand.

I've said what I needed to say. I hope the other CSM will now give the players what they deserve when they elected you.

As for Skype and not talking to you, not really an option while I'm at work, sorry. I'll be on soon enough, can't wait for that. Roll

Issler


1. I think the players deserve more than knee jerk reactions, or in your case gleeful political dog piling, when they ask us for answers on this or any issue.

2. The CSM has not been quiet, we just haven't been trying to start up a mob with a megaphone.

3. That's pretty much exactly what my post said. It's good to know that not only do you lack the respect for the CSM to talk to your colleague before you publicly ask for his resignation or talk to any of us directly as opposed to public flame posting, but you lack the fundamental respect for us, the CSM, and the players to actually read what we say to you in public (the only manner in which you will communicate at all).

4. I believe the players deserve a lot better than what you're giving them. Never before has any CSM acted like this office was the place to launch a 24/7/365 reelection campaign, nor so thoroughly and transparently tried to advance their personal aggrandizement by bull-dogging a fellow CSM member who is doing everything he can do make things right after an unfortunate mistake.

5. Your actions are insulting to me, insulting to the other CSMs, insulting to the institution of the CSM, and a fundamental failure of your primary duty to serve the interests of the players and the game. Frankly, it is absolutely disgusting and I am both very surprised and very disappointed to have to say that about you. Unlike you, however, I plan on waiting till I CAN talk to you privately before doing something like calling for your resignation.

EDIT: Work lets you shitpost on gaming forums but you cant join a Skype chatroom? Where do you work and are they hiring lol

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#170 - 2012-03-27 21:34:09 UTC
I make most of my EVE spacebucks via industry and as such I'm pretty interested in industry-related stuff being much improved upon (including high sec mining though it's not something I do myself, but I do benefit from it not going the way of the dodo). That said, I'm sorry, Issler, but I'm very happy I gave my votes to the person I gave my votes to and not you after reading all you've written during this whole CSM-Mittani debacle. My reasons are pretty simple. One can have tons of great ideas and generally be a pretty smart cookie, but if they have no political acumen, they can do more harm than good by getting involved in politics, and probably watch their ideas go up in smoke. This is precisely the reason why I think Mittani should stay in the CSM, he's pretty good at this politics thing and can lead an effective council that helps get good things done. If you end up with a reputation of being a ranty crazy high sec carebear miner, your ideas might end up marked as not so good despite their actual merit, just by association.

But maybe I'm just being callous by being pretty convinced that booting Mittani would be a mistake. I do have firsthand experience with depression and suicidal impulses and quite literally start every day with medication that keeps me from going over the edge, but even this doesn't change my opinion since I, for one, would like to see an effective CSM 7.
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#171 - 2012-03-27 21:34:17 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
My statement on the Mitanni (and incidentally Issler "accepting" his apology though she sure doesn't act like it)

For me statement on Isslergate: At this point, you're doing more harm to the CSM than anything Mitanni has done. And I'd tell you that in person if you bothered talking to the rest of us.


I'm pretty sure when the players in multiple threads in general asked what the CSM thought of the incident they expected an answer in the forums, not in a private Skype channel.

Sorry, but this didn't need a hive mind meeting to come up with a cleverly crafted collective message. The rest of the CSM staying quiet is what is damaging the CSM.

Ask yourself what your message from your silence is to the people the elected you.

Even if the other CSM members had share something as simple as "Yes, it seems as though many found the action offensive we are happy to see Mittens has offered an apology in the forums and we are working with CCP to make sure the best interests of the players and Eve in general are the focus of whatever action results from their investigation." you would have been better than trying to focus this on me because I responded to the players and took a stand.

I've said what I needed to say. I hope the other CSM will now give the players what they deserve when they elected you.

As for Skype and not talking to you, not really an option while I'm at work, sorry. I'll be on soon enough, can't wait for that. Roll

Issler


You're damaging it. You're 1 step away from Darius right now.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#172 - 2012-03-27 21:34:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Lets keep a sense of perspective here. Issler Dainze is not the person who has currently dragged the reputation of both the CSM chair and the wider Eve community through the mud in the eyes of the gaming press and ruined what should have been a clean sweep of good coverage following an exceptional fanfest.

And if this CSM starts looking like a playground gang seeking to give Issler a kicking because its become upset that the golden boy Mittani has become unsupportable as chair, then its going to have next to zero credibility going forwards.

I'm happy that CSM takes some time to formulate a collective positive on who should be the next chair and how to announce Alexander Gianturco's resignation - I'm less happy to see the rather pathetic and florid displays of sychopantic bleating issued on several threads today from pretty gutless CSM's mewling out mealy mouthed pledges of eternal loyality to the "great leader" despite the grevious errors of judgement and behaviour he has recently displayed.

And some clue for those without a clue.

The approach that CSM 6 in terms of "collective presentation" was not universally appreciated. A lot of players wanted to see who believed what and who had argued for which policy and idea. Having Mittens as the frontman to a shadowy council of collective decision-making without us getting to see the votes and breakdown of the arguments looked quite dodgy on some levels. This discontent was apparent with the reveal of the winter minutes you might remember.

Don't make the mistake of believing the Mittani approach was very popular with eve at large. Plenty of people want to see more transparency and to see for ourselves that work is actually being done and decisions made by genuine discussion and honest process.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2012-03-27 21:39:43 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lets keep a sense of perspective here. You are reading a Jade Constantine post, and I am only marginally better than Issler on my best of days.


hey i thought i would fix this for you
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#174 - 2012-03-27 21:40:40 UTC
Jade you are generally regarded as the worst CSM chairman and it is generally accepted every idea you had on how to run the CSM was wrong, why do you feel your input is useful here.
Blake Zacary
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#175 - 2012-03-27 21:43:11 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Blake Zacary wrote:
Seleene wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
You see Issler that's the problem. You are coming from a CSM time (CSM 3) where events were formal, people had meetings that accomplished little, and the entire thing was one big crowd facing publicity stunt for the people involved. Before you even have sat down to work with the other members you've already taken a stand that you're going to do your best to make a lot of political hay out of attacking one of them. I'd take some time to work with the other people first before you try to pull this ****.


I'm going to +1 this for a couple reasons:

The last CSM was very effective because we worked hard to stay in touch and not get publicly combative and look dysfunctional. Issler, you should probably sort out your NDA and get into Skype with the rest of us. We obviously have an issue to resolve but this isn't the way to go about it. Hell, some of us are asleep, just waking up or even still in Iceland. Smile
I have to disagree with this.This isn't an ingame matter or something covered with the NDA,this was a real life mistake that even Alex said he feels absolutely ashamed about.

I'm sure I'm not the only voter who is curious as to what each individual CSM rep thinks about this.This isn't the time to go into your CSM channels and work out some joint damage control.This is one of those times where people have to stand up and be counted as individuals and not hide behind a collective !


No one is hiding behind anything, m8. But, as I said before, the CSM is a group of people and we've worked hard to not just REACT to things. Mittens / Alex did something really dumb and I've no doubt there will be consequenses.
I'm not asking anyone to 'just react' to it,what I would like to see is open,honest and clear opinions from individual CSM reps.What I don't think is good for the CSM is closing ranks and keeping things secret till you release a joint blanket statement,which is what appears to be happening !
Kallynda Nai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2012-03-27 21:44:39 UTC
Who voted for this idiot, honestly?
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#177 - 2012-03-27 21:44:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Blake Zacary wrote:
I'm not asking anyone to 'just react' to it,what I would like to see is open,honest and clear opinions from individual CSM reps.What I don't think is good for the CSM is closing ranks and keeping things secret till you release a joint blanket statement,which is what appears to be happening !



^^ This.

What happened was a matter of personal degredation and it happaned because of a lack of character by the CSM Chair.

Now what people are wondering is ... are the rest of them like that?

Closing ranks and issuing a joint statement says "yes".

.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#178 - 2012-03-27 21:46:23 UTC
Kallynda Nai wrote:
Who voted for this idiot, honestly?


You would literally have to clarify which idiot, sorry Lol

.
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2012-03-27 21:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lets keep a sense of perspective here. Issler Dainze is not the person who has currently dragged the reputation of both the CSM chair and the wider Eve community through the mud in the eyes of the gaming press and ruined what should have been a clean sweep of good coverage following an exceptional fanfest.

And if this CSM starts looking like a playground gang seeking to give Issler a kicking because its become upset that the golden boy Mittani has become unsupportable as chair, then its going to have next to zero credibility going forwards.

I'm happy that CSM takes some time to formulate a collective positive on who should be the next chair and how to announce Alexander Gianturco's resignation - I'm less happy to see the rather pathetic and florid displays of sychopantic bleating issued on several threads today from pretty gutless CSM's mewling out mealy mouthed pledges of eternal loyality to the "great leader" despite the grevious errors of judgement and behaviour he has recently displayed.

And some clue for those without a clue.

The approach that CSM 6 in terms of "collective presentation" was not universally appreciated. A lot of players wanted to see who believed what and who had argued for which policy and idea. Having Mittens as the frontman to a shadowy council of collective decision-making without us getting to see the votes and breakdown of the arguments looked quite dodgy on some levels. This discontent was apparent with the reveal of the winter minutes you might remember.

Don't make the mistake of believing the Mittani approach was very popular with eve at large. Plenty of people want to see more transparency and to see for ourselves that work is actually being done and decisions made by genuine discussion and honest process.



Retar Aveymone wrote:
Jade you are generally regarded as the worst CSM chairman and it is generally accepted every idea you had on how to run the CSM was wrong, why do you feel your input is useful here.


i cant even figure out what the hell hes really even on about

apparently 'the people' are up in arms about something stupid said by a drunk that got posted on a blog and blah blah transparency and something something pro-mittani csm conspiracy






e: this is not a fake post, i sincerely dont get it

also, snype
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#180 - 2012-03-27 21:48:14 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Jade you are generally regarded as the worst CSM chairman and it is generally accepted every idea you had on how to run the CSM was wrong, why do you feel your input is useful here.


Because pretty much everything I advocated on the CSM is already in the game or about to arrive, because under my chairmanship Eve online had excellent press coverage in the gaming press and mainstream media from New York to London and Paris, because I managed to keep my dignity and temper and didn't get righteously drunk on stage at fanfest and embarrass myself and every decent player of this game by coughing out cod-sadistic nonsense and calling on my fellow players to be trolled into suicide.

Plus I had the good grace to give the next guy a go when my term was up rather than trying to cling on to power like some kind of monomaniac limpet-brained bloodsucker with an desperate need to be loved and feared in equal measure.

That about covers it Big smile

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom