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CSM 7 - We Should Not Accept This Behavior!!

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Doctor Eezee
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2012-03-27 20:01:44 UTC
Oh snap, missed the snipe.

Also we saw the chatlog from The Wis, he didn't even remember that mail...

"My rule is: If you meet the weakest vessel, attack; if it is a vessel equal to yours, attack; and if it is stronger than yours, also attack..." - Admiral Stepan O. Makarov
Kerensky White
K-EDEN
Winger Aerospace
#142 - 2012-03-27 20:03:54 UTC
Shalee Lianne wrote:
It is revolting that Mittens said what he did, and he should suffer heavy consequences for his casual disregard for someone suffering.

He should suffer more than stepping down from CSM as chair, he should be OFF CSM. He should not be allowed to represent the players of EVE at all.

You people give this jerk entirely too much pretend power.


CCP has stepped away from making pretty clothes and stepped back towards making spaceships better.

That's what this 'pretend power' has done.
Sollana
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2012-03-27 20:07:57 UTC
i watched this on HD stream and tbh Mittens and Michael bolton showed just how arrogant they are.

It embarrassed they other panel members and pointed out that eve is full of "wankers", which is not the case.

CCP should ban them from attending fanfest again or anything public.

As for mittens and the CSM, well a public apology should be enuff, and appoint a new chairman
Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#144 - 2012-03-27 20:08:54 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Blake Zacary wrote:
Seleene wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
You see Issler that's the problem. You are coming from a CSM time (CSM 3) where events were formal, people had meetings that accomplished little, and the entire thing was one big crowd facing publicity stunt for the people involved. Before you even have sat down to work with the other members you've already taken a stand that you're going to do your best to make a lot of political hay out of attacking one of them. I'd take some time to work with the other people first before you try to pull this ****.


I'm going to +1 this for a couple reasons:

The last CSM was very effective because we worked hard to stay in touch and not get publicly combative and look dysfunctional. Issler, you should probably sort out your NDA and get into Skype with the rest of us. We obviously have an issue to resolve but this isn't the way to go about it. Hell, some of us are asleep, just waking up or even still in Iceland. Smile
I have to disagree with this.This isn't an ingame matter or something covered with the NDA,this was a real life mistake that even Alex said he feels absolutely ashamed about.

I'm sure I'm not the only voter who is curious as to what each individual CSM rep thinks about this.This isn't the time to go into your CSM channels and work out some joint damage control.This is one of those times where people have to stand up and be counted as individuals and not hide behind a collective !


No one is hiding behind anything, m8. But, as I said before, the CSM is a group of people and we've worked hard to not just REACT to things. Mittens / Alex did something really dumb and I've no doubt there will be consequenses.


Thank you Seleene!!! As the new CSM members consider how best to respond, might I suggest that the members also keep a channel open to CCP? If this controversy begins to spill over into media outlets beyond the gaming community, initial perceptions and reactions by the general public could have adverse consequences for further growth in Eve Online and in Dust. I suspect that CCP may be keeping a very close eye on other media outlets.

Right or wrong, good or bad, wider coverage of this controversy may begin to influence how CCP and the CSM prioritize any possible 'options' for a coordinated response.
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#145 - 2012-03-27 20:11:26 UTC
While I was posting Seleene made some very poised and polite comments. Nonetheless, I feel it is necessary for me to chime in because you asked me to.
Issler Dainze wrote:
I started this thread because I saw repeated posted in other threads that asked the CSM for their position related to this event.

If the rest of the CSM 7 can't find it in themselves to take a stand then I wonder how they think they deserve their position in the CSM.

Not only do I find this comment to be the furthest thing from constructive, I find it deeply offensive as both a member of CSM 6 and CSM 7. Previous incarnations of the CSM proved that when the CSM act as a disjointed set of individuals, very little is achieved. However, as CSM 6 illustrated, when they step off the soap box to actually communicate with one another and act with a united front, they are able to make waves.

While you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, it is downright shameful for you to pass judgement onto CSM members while you are the only one who has yet to join in the Skype channel and the only one who is not involved in our communication.

Quote:


I knew this would further polarize any opinions about me but I didn't sign up for this to win some sort of popularity contest. I did this to server the players of Eve and it looks to me like a lot of them want more than just a "I'm sorry, I was drunk and was an asshat, can we hug and make up, I swear I'll never do it again".

I really looked forward to working with Mittens, by all accounts he is very effective in the CSM and I wanted to see how the "new" structure of the CSM worked compared to the older and less effective model I was involved in.

Here is one final point. The original purpose if the CSM was to make sure that the players had direct representation when scandals in Eve occurred. To give the player's a voice when scandals happen. If this isn't a scandal then I'm confused about the meaning of the word.


We do agree that the CSM is not a "popularity contest" and it is in fact best utilized as a communication tool between the players and CCP. Going out as a lone wolf with a megaphone and a soap box is fine as an individual, but while representing a greater body tact and communication are vital. I look forward to working with you, but please take the leap and join us so you can communicate with the CSM without blindly throwing us under the bus.

~
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#146 - 2012-03-27 20:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Elise Randolph wrote:
We do agree that the CSM is not a "popularity contest" and it is in fact best utilized as a communication tool between the players and CCP. Going out as a lone wolf with a megaphone and a soap box is fine as an individual, but while representing a greater body tact and communication are vital. I look forward to working with you, but please take the leap and join us so you can communicate with the CSM without blindly throwing us under the bus.


And yet you still cannot bring yourselves to give any negative feedback about your imperious leader - did he display the poise and tact that you're accusing Issler of now not having? I notice you'll do THAT publically.

Guess it'll be another year of "no shade between us".

"Then we shall CSM in the shade!"

.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#147 - 2012-03-27 20:23:02 UTC
Doctor Eezee wrote:
Also, while I completely agree that it was out of line to ask for other people to message him, somehow there are a few things people are forgetting.

1. CCP had access to all presentations beforehand and obviously didn't object to anything. The Alliance Panel is traditionally pretty laissez-faire. People presenting drunk is not something new on this particular panel and CCP obviously doesn't mind.

2. Mittens wasn't on the alliance panel in his capacity as a CSM member. He was there to represent Goonswarm. I wasn't a particular fan of the slide in question, since Depression is unfortunately a pretty serious condition, but other people didn't seem to mind.
During the CSM panel where he actually spoke in an official capacity, he was not drunk and he behaved completely professional, doing exactly the job that was expected from him.

3. Nobody seemed to mind for 2 days after the alliance panel was presented. There were no sanctions by CCP, very few comments on the slide. Not even Evenews picked it up and Riverini and Mittens are not exactly the closest of friends.


I agree he did something wrong, but he apologized and I seriously doubt he will anything like that ever happen again. The absolute most he should do is step down as chairman of the CSM and let TwoStep take over, while remaining on the CSM panel as a normal member.
Removing him from the CSM alltogether will undoubtedly hurt Eve and that can't be in the interest of any player.


Protests, even a cry from goons for Mittens to step down started almost immediately after the panel. So it wasn't quiet for several days. I was up till 2:00 AM trying to catch the repeat feed (which I think CCP broke on purpose) to figure out what the kerfuffle was about. It wasn't till someone posted a link to a youtube of the panel that I saw what the protesters were going on about.

I actually am concerned about your point that CCP had this material in advance. I'm expecting CCP meeds to explain that.

Issler
Arkady Vachon
The Gold Angels
Sixth Empire
#148 - 2012-03-27 20:24:59 UTC
To Seleene, Elise, and Hans - I am curious, is there a procedure in place for transfer of the Chair to another CSM member? Is it just appointed by the current Chair, or is there a voting process involved?

Of course, that makes me curious about instances where a CSM Chair would have to be removed from their position if they did not resign willingly, does CCP make that call, or does the rest of the CSM initiate something along the lines like a vote of 'No Confidence' to enable their removal.

Note that on this last part I am not saying that this is what should be done, obviously, but am curious as to the procedures involved, if any.


Thanks in advance.

Nothing Personal - Just Business...

Chaos Creates Content
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#149 - 2012-03-27 20:25:18 UTC
Ad'Hakim Tahous wrote:

Thank you Seleene!!! As the new CSM members consider how best to respond, might I suggest that the members also keep a channel open to CCP?


As has been stated many times throughout the campaign, the CSM and CCP work together constantly through a persistent conversation over Skype. So yes, we do have a channel open, and we make good use of it.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Della Monk
Monastery of Drakes
#150 - 2012-03-27 20:25:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Della Monk
Elise Randolph wrote:
While you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, it is downright shameful for you to pass judgement onto CSM members while you are the only one who has yet to join in the Skype channel and the only one who is not involved in our communication.


He shoots, he scores.
LtTysander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2012-03-27 20:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: LtTysander
Issler Dainze wrote:
Doctor Eezee wrote:
Also, while I completely agree that it was out of line to ask for other people to message him, somehow there are a few things people are forgetting.

1. CCP had access to all presentations beforehand and obviously didn't object to anything. The Alliance Panel is traditionally pretty laissez-faire. People presenting drunk is not something new on this particular panel and CCP obviously doesn't mind.

2. Mittens wasn't on the alliance panel in his capacity as a CSM member. He was there to represent Goonswarm. I wasn't a particular fan of the slide in question, since Depression is unfortunately a pretty serious condition, but other people didn't seem to mind.
During the CSM panel where he actually spoke in an official capacity, he was not drunk and he behaved completely professional, doing exactly the job that was expected from him.

3. Nobody seemed to mind for 2 days after the alliance panel was presented. There were no sanctions by CCP, very few comments on the slide. Not even Evenews picked it up and Riverini and Mittens are not exactly the closest of friends.


I agree he did something wrong, but he apologized and I seriously doubt he will anything like that ever happen again. The absolute most he should do is step down as chairman of the CSM and let TwoStep take over, while remaining on the CSM panel as a normal member.
Removing him from the CSM alltogether will undoubtedly hurt Eve and that can't be in the interest of any player.


Protests, even a cry from goons for Mittens to step down started almost immediately after the panel. So it wasn't quiet for several days. I was up till 2:00 AM trying to catch the repeat feed (which I think CCP broke on purpose) to figure out what the kerfuffle was about. It wasn't till someone posted a link to a youtube of the panel that I saw what the protesters were going on about.

I actually am concerned about your point that CCP had this material in advance. I'm expecting CCP meeds to explain that.

Issler


No we are not calling for him to step down you are being stupid for fabricating such information. If you're going to say something like that, back it up. Unless you want to keep up with your hyperbole and make yourself look even more ridiculous.
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#152 - 2012-03-27 20:37:04 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Doctor Eezee wrote:
Also, while I completely agree that it was out of line to ask for other people to message him, somehow there are a few things people are forgetting.

1. CCP had access to all presentations beforehand and obviously didn't object to anything. The Alliance Panel is traditionally pretty laissez-faire. People presenting drunk is not something new on this particular panel and CCP obviously doesn't mind.

2. Mittens wasn't on the alliance panel in his capacity as a CSM member. He was there to represent Goonswarm. I wasn't a particular fan of the slide in question, since Depression is unfortunately a pretty serious condition, but other people didn't seem to mind.
During the CSM panel where he actually spoke in an official capacity, he was not drunk and he behaved completely professional, doing exactly the job that was expected from him.

3. Nobody seemed to mind for 2 days after the alliance panel was presented. There were no sanctions by CCP, very few comments on the slide. Not even Evenews picked it up and Riverini and Mittens are not exactly the closest of friends.


I agree he did something wrong, but he apologized and I seriously doubt he will anything like that ever happen again. The absolute most he should do is step down as chairman of the CSM and let TwoStep take over, while remaining on the CSM panel as a normal member.
Removing him from the CSM alltogether will undoubtedly hurt Eve and that can't be in the interest of any player.


Protests, even a cry from goons for Mittens to step down started almost immediately after the panel. So it wasn't quiet for several days. I was up till 2:00 AM trying to catch the repeat feed (which I think CCP broke on purpose) to figure out what the kerfuffle was about. It wasn't till someone posted a link to a youtube of the panel that I saw what the protesters were going on about.

I actually am concerned about your point that CCP had this material in advance. I'm expecting CCP meeds to explain that.

Issler


Dude, you're in the CSM, please start behaving like it. You're not here in the capacity of a CEO to a major null sec alliance.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#153 - 2012-03-27 20:40:58 UTC
Elise Randolph wrote:
While I was posting Seleene made some very poised and polite comments. Nonetheless, I feel it is necessary for me to chime in because you asked me to.
Issler Dainze wrote:
I started this thread because I saw repeated posted in other threads that asked the CSM for their position related to this event.

If the rest of the CSM 7 can't find it in themselves to take a stand then I wonder how they think they deserve their position in the CSM.

Not only do I find this comment to be the furthest thing from constructive, I find it deeply offensive as both a member of CSM 6 and CSM 7. Previous incarnations of the CSM proved that when the CSM act as a disjointed set of individuals, very little is achieved. However, as CSM 6 illustrated, when they step off the soap box to actually communicate with one another and act with a united front, they are able to make waves.

While you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, it is downright shameful for you to pass judgement onto CSM members while you are the only one who has yet to join in the Skype channel and the only one who is not involved in our communication.

Quote:


I knew this would further polarize any opinions about me but I didn't sign up for this to win some sort of popularity contest. I did this to server the players of Eve and it looks to me like a lot of them want more than just a "I'm sorry, I was drunk and was an asshat, can we hug and make up, I swear I'll never do it again".

I really looked forward to working with Mittens, by all accounts he is very effective in the CSM and I wanted to see how the "new" structure of the CSM worked compared to the older and less effective model I was involved in.

Here is one final point. The original purpose if the CSM was to make sure that the players had direct representation when scandals in Eve occurred. To give the player's a voice when scandals happen. If this isn't a scandal then I'm confused about the meaning of the word.


We do agree that the CSM is not a "popularity contest" and it is in fact best utilized as a communication tool between the players and CCP. Going out as a lone wolf with a megaphone and a soap box is fine as an individual, but while representing a greater body tact and communication are vital. I look forward to working with you, but please take the leap and join us so you can communicate with the CSM without blindly throwing us under the bus.


I'm not throwing anyone under the bus, I'm responding to the players that elected me to take a stand. And that only a few other of the CSM feels a need to provide the same player representation is puzzling. To stay quiet and worry about "the message" behind closed doors is exactly what the players fear about the CSM's lack of transparency to the players.

There isn't anything to think about. Either you thought what Mittens did was OK and sit on the sidelines (or even seem to support him) or you honestly address the players with your thoughts and what outcomes you think are appropriate.

Boy CSM 7 is off to a great start! Shocked

Issler
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#154 - 2012-03-27 20:42:49 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Ad'Hakim Tahous wrote:

Thank you Seleene!!! As the new CSM members consider how best to respond, might I suggest that the members also keep a channel open to CCP?


As has been stated many times throughout the campaign, the CSM and CCP work together constantly through a persistent conversation over Skype. So yes, we do have a channel open, and we make good use of it.


I am sure the players will be very impressed with your strong statement regarding the issue at hand.

Issler
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2012-03-27 20:48:30 UTC
ahahaha issler showing why nobody let her on a csm since #2
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#156 - 2012-03-27 20:48:55 UTC
gonna matter less than d3 at this rate
Mr Vrix
Vrix Nation
#157 - 2012-03-27 20:50:04 UTC
Kerensky White wrote:
Shalee Lianne wrote:
It is revolting that Mittens said what he did, and he should suffer heavy consequences for his casual disregard for someone suffering.

He should suffer more than stepping down from CSM as chair, he should be OFF CSM. He should not be allowed to represent the players of EVE at all.

You people give this jerk entirely too much pretend power.


CCP has stepped away from making pretty clothes and stepped back towards making spaceships better.

That's what this 'pretend power' has done.


mayby if ya pull ya head out of his ass ya not so blind anymore, alot blind sheeps in goons

csm is a pr program for ccp nothingh more,

its because crapload of ppl stopped paying there accounts and the mass protest at jita that ccp was all OMG and changed stuff

they yust feed csm somestuff but the important stuff is not for csm eyes, except when ccp has alrdy decided todoit they tell csm yust a little before they do the playerbase
LtTysander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2012-03-27 20:50:04 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Ad'Hakim Tahous wrote:

Thank you Seleene!!! As the new CSM members consider how best to respond, might I suggest that the members also keep a channel open to CCP?


As has been stated many times throughout the campaign, the CSM and CCP work together constantly through a persistent conversation over Skype. So yes, we do have a channel open, and we make good use of it.


I am sure the players will be very impressed with your strong statement regarding the issue at hand.

Issler


The thing is it is a non-issue that you are actively trying to make into an issue. The player of which you are so concerned about is fine. Mittani has apologized and has made amends, that is the end of the story. What you are trying to do here is exasperate what is essentially an offhand comment made by somebody that was drunk in a forum in which he was there in no official capacity. He was on the alliance panel not there as CSM.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#159 - 2012-03-27 20:50:52 UTC
My statement on the Mitanni (and incidentally Issler "accepting" his apology though she sure doesn't act like it)

For me statement on Isslergate: At this point, you're doing more harm to the CSM than anything Mitanni has done. And I'd tell you that in person if you bothered talking to the rest of us.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#160 - 2012-03-27 20:54:21 UTC
I am literally becoming less impressed with issler by the minute. She is completely unwilling to work with a team, reactionary, hysterical, accusatory, and generally offensive not only to her fellow CSM members, but players of this game.

I suggest she step down from the CSM as she is incapable of keeping a level head and working through this issue calmly.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.