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Combat frigate changes for Inferno

First post
Author
Angel Vrae
Furry Balls Plopped Menacingly On The Table LLC.
#161 - 2012-04-25 10:12:44 UTC
eidenjunior wrote:
Can you take and inclute what they are change from?

Quote:

New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage(-10% cap use of Energy guns) and 5% bonus to armor resistances per skill level
Slot layout: 4 H, 2 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
Fittings: 55(45) PWG, 124(115) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350 / 500 / 450(391/469/391)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 / 180 s / 1.66 (425/281.25 s/1.51)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.35 / 1047000 / 3.28 s (287/4.21/1,047,000 kg/x)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km / 640 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Radar
Signature radius: 37

Quote:

so, in short:

+dmg/dps
+ speed
+agilily
+scan res
+ less sig res
+ more pwg and cpu
+base EHP
+cap per sec
-cap amount
-locked targets


you are giveing it more dps(good), but you are nurfing the cap amount(why?)


Because it is frigate. Its not supposed to have a huge capacitor.

8 positives 2 slightly negatives. It actually makes the frigate fit the role more. I for one will be buying a Punisher because of these changes.


Angel Vrae Gallentean Intaki Artists

Industrial and Mining Director

Enriched Ambitions

gallaoth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2012-04-25 14:12:07 UTC
MERLIN:

New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% to small hybrid turret range per level
Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
Fittings: 40 PWG, 180 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500 / 350 / 350
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 260 / 180 s / 1.44
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.7 / 997000 / 3.45 s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 580 / 5
Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 39

could it not look more like this?

MERLIN:

New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 5% bonus to shield resistances
Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
Fittings: 40 PWG, 180 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500 / 350 / 350
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 260 / 180 s / 1.44
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.7 / 997000 / 3.45 s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 580 / 5
Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 39
Liam Mirren
#163 - 2012-04-25 14:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
These stats mean nothing without context, we need to see ALL the frig changes to find the design logic and reasoning and to see if it's balanced and makes sense.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Calistai Huranu
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#164 - 2012-04-25 15:10:49 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • ONLY 5 SHIPS?!: unfortunately for Inferno, yes. We initially wanted to revamp all frigates for this release, however problem is we are lacking Dev power at the moment (I am assigned to other projects as well, and Tallest is playing daddy with his twins Twisted ) so yep that is lame, but sadly we will have to cope with that for now.



  • If there isn't the resource's available at the current time to do all of them, or at least one faction or group of vessels such as revamping all mining ships, and/or tier 1 combat ships, then don't touch any of them for the time being.

    The ship's that require the most work to make them desirable to fly should be your Priority, not three of those that are currently used a great deal and just one faction's mining frigates.

    Remember that commitment to Excellence?

    Liam Mirren
    #165 - 2012-04-25 15:46:50 UTC
    Have to agree there, either do them all or wait with implementing till you can do them all. Doing it right the first time and all that, you simply can not change a bunch of ships without having the overview on how you want to do the others. Otherwise we'll be stuck with weird decisions and ships for years to come just because CCP fell back to its old tricks of doing stuff half arsed.

    Please reconsider.

    Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle5
    Villore Accords
    #166 - 2012-04-25 15:55:01 UTC
    Marcel Devereux wrote:

    Make the Incursus more like the Comet. This ship is a excellent example of what a Gallente Combat ship should be. Reduce down to two turrets and increase the damage bonus. This will free up a high slot for a utility high slot.
    You just described a Maulus (2 turrets, 1 utility, 2 drones). Big smile

    Teclador
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #167 - 2012-04-25 16:11:26 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Great comments in here, let's address some of them.


    • BOMBARDMENT FRIGATES: classification is mainly cosmetic, not much different role wise than Combat / Attack frigates. Mainly use missiles, speed / EHP between Attack and Combat frigates and depending on their individual purpose. Is made of the Inquisitor, Condor, Kestrel, Tristan and Breacher. Supposedly being split up by two versions, those that are close range based with high damage (rockets) and the others being more of a medium range platforms (and thus light missile based).



    Remember, theses classifications and frigate affiliations are still likely to change, and are mainly used to help us sort them out for now. These are just concept changes still, there will be other discussion threads for them specifically, so don't freak out Blink


    To Bombard someone/something you need classically a not moving Target, because Bombs are Slow.

    To Bombard someone/something with Missiles, they need a Speed Boost. Missiles are to slow to be PvP wise attractive.

    The Only Bombardment i ever saw in this game, that comes very close to what the Name Bombardment is for me, was the old Ragnarok Doomsday. I Really miss that Effect / Animation.
    Andy Landen
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #168 - 2012-04-25 17:09:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
    Excellent work with frigates on the AF front. Frigate love is well needed and appreciated. Interestingly, the biggest frigate balance should probably begin with giving gate guns tracking limitations and optimal + falloff. This mostly influences low sec pvp, but hey, its an easy fix to bring these guns into line with all other guns and allow frigates to find a place in low sec.

    Edit: What if frigates were attractive to veterans beyond the occasional cyno ship and low sec traveler. Instead of making a couple of small changes, what if T1 frigates were given roles which actually tempted experience players to fly them over cruisers. Perhaps a special module or two that only fits on frigates. Perhaps a module that gives intel on fleets and ships. Maybe something that indicates when ships are jammed or have other eWar success.

    "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

    ValentinaDLM
    SoE Roughriders
    Electus Matari
    #169 - 2012-04-25 23:22:51 UTC
    Please leqve merlin bonuses the same and just switch it to guns.
    ValentinaDLM
    SoE Roughriders
    Electus Matari
    #170 - 2012-04-25 23:27:57 UTC
    Iria Ahrens wrote:
    Tormentor should fly drones. In fanfest it was said holes would be closed but Amarr has a major drone hole in t1 frigates. And a drone frigate would not need the cap bonus and range bonus to turrets. Amarr is the second drone race, so we should definitely close the t1 drone hole.


    +1 we need to keep some connections with the Amarr weapon systems. However a crucifer with drone and td bonus but only 3 drones is what I would recommend since the drone.ships for Amarr are ewar ships.
    Finkov
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #171 - 2012-04-26 02:15:44 UTC
    Commander Slavin wrote:
    MERLIN:

    New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% to small hybrid turret range per level
    Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
    Fittings: 40 PWG, 180 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500 / 350 / 350
    Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 260 / 180 s / 1.44
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.7 / 997000 / 3.45 s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 580 / 5
    Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric
    Signature radius: 39

    Please no.

    Im totally fine with making the merlin a 100% gun boat, but the best thing about the frigate is that 5% to shield resistances per level. Its why this ship is my favourite T1 frigate, its why I use it for 1v1s and its why im worried about the change.

    Can we just have the 5% to damage and 5% to shield resistances?


    ^^^ This. Why change something that is already awesome. Currently the Merlin is the best t1 (non faction) frig in the game for 1v1s and now they are planing on nerfing it.

    Sad day. Sad day.

    Heretic Army CEO Heretic Nation Diplomat

    http://www.heretic-army.biz

    Marcel Devereux
    Aideron Robotics
    #172 - 2012-04-26 03:04:57 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Marcel Devereux wrote:
    Daneel Trevize wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    • BOMBARDMENT FRIGATES: classification is mainly cosmetic, not much different role wise than Combat / Attack frigates. ... Supposedly being split up by two versions, those that are close range based with high damage (rockets) and the others being more of a medium range platforms (and thus light missile based).
    You (CCP) are clearly trying to justify a 'role' name that doesn't fit. Just let it go, and forget about this superfluous 'Bombardment' name. It isn't a role, you just seem hesitant to permit missile ships to be in the other roles.

    Call a role snipers/alpha-oriented/volley ships if you feel there is one to define.


    Agreed. If the only difference between the Combat and Bombardment roles is turrets vs missiles then the roles needs to be reworked.


    There is truth in that statement, and that is one of the questions we asked ourselves as well when we came up with the classifications. They are mainly cosmetic at this point anyway and most likely going to change, but this indeed deserves further consideration. Glad we are having this discussion and getting your feedback before starting on the missile ships themselves Pirate.


    I'm glad we are having this conversation too!

    Do you have and idea of the capabilities of each role? Could you break it down by Damage, Range, Speed, Tank, and Sig Radius and rate those on a scale of 1-5? I'm just curious to see the difference in the roles for each of these attributes.
    None ofthe Above
    #173 - 2012-04-26 05:42:16 UTC
    First off, very much appreciate both the open discussion and the apparent willingness for change.

    Tech 1 frigates seems like a great place to start.

    A couple of points I am confused about though.

    Why, if you can only work on five ships, do you decide to work on so many that actually work well now? Merlin, Rifter and Punisher could be left till last considering how popular and functional they are.

    I agree with others on not liking seeing the Merlin lose its current role. FYI if you are going to touch it, I still think it should have 4 highs, with three turrets and three launchers, with bonuses to both systems. Make it a flexible ship, usable to train in either missiles or turrets. Would fit well with the tutorials. (Your redesigned Merlin would not, btw. Would need to alter to hand out a Kestrel somewhere.)

    I understand holding off on the mining frigates for now if you are waiting for the ORE frigate, but aren't you proposing changing Tormentor away from its mining role? Shouldn't that be left alone until the ORE ship? What are new Amarr pilots supposed to do in the mean time?

    Ever consider dropping the requirements for the Procurer to near nothing? That would make a fine starter mining ship. (Could be done by making the industry V req a secondary or tertiary requirement for the Retriever and Covetor instead of for the Mining Barge Skill.) Not as sexy as a new ship but gets the job done.

    While you are messing with the Mining Barges, your suggested dropping of the Covetor's prereq to Mining Barge IV (and Astrogeology IV?) would be a great thing, spreading out the training times so that each ship would be more used.

    Very much glad to hear that the bombardment ship line is being reconsidered. That one was sticking out as a stretch.

    The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

    Ogopogo Mu
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #174 - 2012-04-26 07:50:48 UTC
    Current Merlin: Higher skill requirements than the baseline (Rifter) due to split systems and grid/cpu, middling damage, great tank (for a T1), slow. Excellent learning ship for new Caldari PVPers.

    Proposed Merlin: Crap tank, bad capacitor so it runs out because it uses cap-using guns, apparently meant to kite which it can't because it's too slow, buffering rigs will make it slower, crap.

    Small changes PLEASE. The problem with T1 frigs is not that they don't fill some sort of arbitrary "role" that has more bearing in someone's design document (probably with a prominent "Change is good!" bulletpoint at the top). The problem with T1 frigs is that they're really not all that attractive in a world of buffed AFs and neut madness.

    In addition, the "ship of the line" role drops Caldari gunboats into rail semi-snipers, as actual snipers have been obsolete for some time. Rails are suboptimal for this purpose, especiialy in sub-Battleship (maybe BC) -sized weapons. Does anyone really expect to see any FC thinking, "Oh boy, these new Merlins are great! Quick, let's get fifty of them together and try to engage an enemy fleet of... pods maybe... at medium range! OMG they're at 10km, we can't track them! WARP WARP WARP!"

    The only reason I can think of to ditch the resist bonus on a Merlin is to make more of them die. Which it will not, because fewer people will fly them. If you think the Caldari need an actual hybrid T1 frigate, which is reasonable, then go 3 gun/1 util or 3 gun/1 launcher. Extra low, maybe, if it has the CPU to support it. But honestly, take a look at some of the ships that really really need attention first before flipping all sense upside down on the ships that mostly work now.

    Better yet, try flying the ship for a while before shoving beta theory changes onto a production server, kthx.
    Galphii
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #175 - 2012-04-26 08:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
    The changing of mining frigates to combat hulls is a good idea (I'm guessing mining cruisers will go this way too).

    Rifter is definitely the benchmark for the redesign process.

    Bear in mind that any amarr ship that doesn't get the damage bonus (or range bonus) to lasers will end up being fit with projectiles P

    Do gallente really have to be stuck with a local rep bonus, which is proven to be inferior for anything other than pve? The amarr and caldari 5% resist bonus is good for repping as well as buffer fits, whereas the gallente and minmatar bonus does nothing for buffer fits. Please consider a 5% armour amount increase for gallente, and a 5% shield increase for minmatar per level instead Big smile

    I also think that gallente and amarr should be the slow ships with decent range weapons (yeah talking about blasters here), since they armour tank and that's just going to make them slow. Minmatar is great for kiting and I think caldari ships should be faster to permit kiting with rails at range... not as fast as minmatar of course. A kiting ship that doesn't have the speed to keep range isn't terribly effective (moa and its variants etc).

    I'm not sure about having combat-line ships either snipers or close range, and then having bombardment separately... Consider changing the combat line to 'close range brawlers', and then having the bombardment line include sniper ships. i.e. regardless of the weapon systems used, if they're long range, they're bombardment, short range = combat line. On an unrelated note, exactly how fast can you make missiles go...? Cool

    Finally, are the weapon systems going to be balanced along with the ships? 'cause light missiles, rails & beams should be turned into high-volley weapons like artillery I reckon.

    "Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

    Reilly Duvolle
    Hydra Squadron
    #176 - 2012-04-26 13:12:48 UTC
    It seems to me that you have a more consistent frigate line-up right now, than the one you are proposing.

    Right now, Every race has 6 frigates, 2 combat, 1 scout, 1 mining, 1 scanning and 1 EWAR.

    You keep the scanning and EWAR frigate roles in the new support category, which is fine. This category thus includes the Crucifier, Griffin, Maulus and Vigil (EWAR), and the Magnate, Heron, Imicus and Probe (Scanning)


    As for the other 4, it seems like there is no consistency in how you approach them, so permit me to forward a proposal:

    1) Each race get a close range "brawler" combat frigate with the tanking ability to stay close: Punisher, Merlin, Incursus, Rifter.

    2) Each race get a medium range "skirmisher" attack frigate, medium tanked, relatively fast and agile, longer reaching but more fragile than the brawlers. Realtively hard hitting at maximum point range and the agility to turn and run if necessary (these are hit and run ships). Specific bonuses to weapon systems. Tormentor (small beam lasers), Bantam (light missiles), Navitas (light drones), Burst (small artillery). All these frigates need a redsign, as they currently dont look much like combat ships.

    3) Each race get a combat scout/tackler (attack frigate), thin skinned, but fast, agile and with low signature radius and perhaps a bonus to MWD sig bloom reduction (but not a point range bonus like a specialized interceptor), with smaller damage output than the skirmishers: Executioner, Condor, Atron, Slasher

    Lastly but not least, the current secondary combat frigates are turned into "bombardement ships", the artillery of the frigate battlefield. Paper thin, but agile, far reaching and hard hitting.

    4) Each race get a "bombardement ship" with a bonus to medium (cruiser) sized weaponry. These are allready the basis of the stealth bombers and the redesign allows them to mount bigger weapons without looking funny. These will be to frigates what tier 3 battlecruisers is for that class, and will also be a natural stepping stone to the cruiser/BC classes. Inquisitor, Kestrel, Tristan, Breacher.
    Galphii
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #177 - 2012-04-26 13:41:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
    Reilly Duvolle wrote:
    Stuff

    This.
    I was just about to suggest the Tristan goes over to a full missile frigate like the other three races get Smile

    Regarding Rookie Ships
    I'll repost some ideas I had from a thread I started a couple of months back.


    • The rookie ships are there to demonstrate the game to new players. They should be able to do pretty much everything in the tutorial, but only in a basic fashion.
    • They should do a little bit of everything: combat, mining, exploration, trade, and yet not be all that great at each thing.


    To this end, give them:

    • An extra high slot with a version of the Zephyr's probe launcher already in place (plus some probes as part of the tutorial).
    • A larger cargo bay, perhaps 250m3, so new players can do some trading before upgrading to an industrial, if they so choose.
    • More capacitor - it's embarrassing to have your ship running out of power halfway across a big system. It's a bad look, and 75% of the capacitor of a proper frigate is not going to make them OP - hell, shuttles have more cap than these things atm.
    • They should be able to do some of the easier level 1 missions without too much difficulty - give them enough armour/shield to survive that much at least.
    • Give them an extra mid and low slot, but no extra powergrid or cpu. They should only be fitting basic, civilian or low-end t1 items, and adding slots while restricting their power covers this, but gives them a little flexibility to play with fitting. You could also consider giving all rookie ships a missile slot, because missiles are about to get sexy. With the pg and cpu restrictions, I don't think a rookie ship would be overpowered with 2 turrets and a rocket launcher.
    • Give them 1 or 2 rig slots. If people want to bling their rookie ships, this shouldn't be a problem.
    • Give them a 2nd bonus, but for something fairly innocuous, like 5% cargo hold per level.

    "Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

    Enaria Nightbane
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #178 - 2012-04-26 14:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Enaria Nightbane
    Reilly Duvolle wrote:


    4) Each race get a "bombardement ship" with a bonus to medium (cruiser) sized weaponry. These are allready the basis of the stealth bombers and the redesign allows them to mount bigger weapons without looking funny. These will be to frigates what tier 3 battlecruisers is for that class, and will also be a natural stepping stone to the cruiser/BC classes. Inquisitor, Kestrel, Tristan, Breacher.


    A role bonus such as 15% reduction in CPU AND 5% reduction in PG per level to Assault missile launchers would make them fun little frigs to fly without having to mess with them too much.
    Ogopogo Mu
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #179 - 2012-04-26 14:58:13 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • Split and re-purpose frigates into Combat, Attack, Bombardment and Support roles (includes revamping mining frigates into this)
  • Have a look at Rookie frigates to make them more versatile but less efficient than revamped frigates
  • On the power ladder, tech 1 frigates should be less effective than faction / tech 2, but more forgiving and flexible with their fittings


  • You understand that by shoehorning hulls into distinct special-purpose classes (some of which are useless) that you inevitably restrict their fitting choices?
    Galphii
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #180 - 2012-04-26 15:02:56 UTC
    Enaria Nightbane wrote:
    Reilly Duvolle wrote:


    4) Each race get a "bombardement ship" with a bonus to medium (cruiser) sized weaponry. These are allready the basis of the stealth bombers and the redesign allows them to mount bigger weapons without looking funny. These will be to frigates what tier 3 battlecruisers is for that class, and will also be a natural stepping stone to the cruiser/BC classes. Inquisitor, Kestrel, Tristan, Breacher.


    A role bonus such as 15% reduction in CPU AND 5% reduction in PG per level to Assault missile launchers would make them fun little frigs to fly without having to mess with them too much.

    This should be used for a destroyer hull, not a frigate hull.

    "Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.