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Recons are counter-intuitive

Author
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#1 - 2012-04-22 03:20:33 UTC
I was just reading a thread about lasers and someone mentioned that a solo sentinel will keep you from firing.

That brings me to the point that each race's recon actually works better against their own race than any of the others (with the exception of ECM, but no one likes ECM). It's kinda like shooting yourself in the foot.

Amarr - Neuts and TD. Lasers require the most cap of and weapon system and have the worst tracking.

Minmatar - Webs and TP. Minnie ships are speed/range/sig tanks.

Gallente - Super long points and Damps. Blasters don't have range and being able to scram at long point range doesn't help them. Combined with damps you're pretty done for, although that applies to most ships.

I'm not saying that anything is broken, just saying that it would make more sense if they were flipped. Amarr needs to counter minmatar's speed and range tank so they have long range webbing ships and make the sig bigger. Minmatar need to counter amarr by messing with their tracking and preventing their guns from firing. An amarr ship being webbed and made bigger won't do anything because they're probably not moving in the first place. Neuting out a minmatar ship won't do anything because their guns don't need any cap to kill you.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2 - 2012-04-22 03:26:03 UTC
Neuts are super effective against Winmatar ships since you can shut off their tank much easier due to Minmatar ships typically having poor capacitors.

Targeting Dampeners are super effective against Caldari since they tend to be oriented towards sniping. Damp their range, force them to come closer, placing the Gallente at the advantage by forcing the enemy into blaster range. Well, that's the ideal, as opposed to the practice.

Target Painters and Webs are incredibly powerful in amplifying the damage caused by long range artillery or short range auto cannons.

So the racial EWAR is quite intuitive, from a certain point of view.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#3 - 2012-04-22 03:39:29 UTC
I suppose my theory only applies to Minmatar and Amarr. The only active tanked minmatar ships are the cyclone and the maelstrom. So neuts don't really help there. Also AC's have the best tracking of any turret so webs and TP would be more helpful for another race such as amarr.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX

Veronica Kerrigan
Surgically Constructed L Feminist
#4 - 2012-04-22 04:13:55 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
I was just reading a thread about lasers and someone mentioned that a solo sentinel will keep you from firing.

That brings me to the point that each race's recon actually works better against their own race than any of the others (with the exception of ECM, but no one likes ECM). It's kinda like shooting yourself in the foot.

Amarr - Neuts and TD. Lasers require the most cap of and weapon system and have the worst tracking.

Minmatar - Webs and TP. Minnie ships are speed/range/sig tanks.

Gallente - Super long points and Damps. Blasters don't have range and being able to scram at long point range doesn't help them. Combined with damps you're pretty done for, although that applies to most ships.

I'm not saying that anything is broken, just saying that it would make more sense if they were flipped. Amarr needs to counter minmatar's speed and range tank so they have long range webbing ships and make the sig bigger. Minmatar need to counter amarr by messing with their tracking and preventing their guns from firing. An amarr ship being webbed and made bigger won't do anything because they're probably not moving in the first place. Neuting out a minmatar ship won't do anything because their guns don't need any cap to kill you.


In my opinion they actually have one that counters themselves, and one that counter their main opponent, caldari being the exception.

Minmatar have TP, which against the armor tanking amarr helps damage projection a fair bit, while the webs aren't as useful because of how slow the ships are. Webs on the other hand, are THE ewar to use against minny

Amarr have TD and neuts. TD means that the amarr can outrange their minny opponents handily, and if they come in close, they can level the playing field as far as tracking is concerned. Neuts on the other hand, shut down all amarrian firepower that has good projection.

Gallente have damps, which shut down the extended range of the caldari, while the scram stops a gallente ship in it's tracks.

ECM is overpowered, but that's not what the thread is about.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#5 - 2012-04-22 04:19:21 UTC
Veronica Kerrigan wrote:


In my opinion they actually have one that counters themselves, and one that counter their main opponent, caldari being the exception.

Minmatar have TP, which against the armor tanking amarr helps damage projection a fair bit, while the webs aren't as useful because of how slow the ships are. Webs on the other hand, are THE ewar to use against minny

Amarr have TD and neuts. TD means that the amarr can outrange their minny opponents handily, and if they come in close, they can level the playing field as far as tracking is concerned. Neuts on the other hand, shut down all amarrian firepower that has good projection.

Gallente have damps, which shut down the extended range of the caldari, while the scram stops a gallente ship in it's tracks.

ECM is overpowered, but that's not what the thread is about.


That actually makes sense...

Still, TD's hurt amarr almost as much as neuts do. TP's hurt minmatar, but not as much as TD's hurt amarr. Then again, TD's ruin any turret ships day.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX

Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-04-22 06:37:15 UTC
It is true that it is strange Amarr EWAR is weak against Minnie ships.
Even beyond that, Amarr frigs are bad against Minnie frigates due to the high EM resists.
However, if you gave the Minnie race cap warfare instead of the Amarr, Minnie would be even more OP than it is now.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#7 - 2012-04-22 07:01:41 UTC
One must assume the various eWar was designed prior to the stargate network spreading far and wide so it is meant to suppress dissidents within the states .. nothing else makes sense Smile
Mara Rinn wrote:
Neuts are super effective against Winmatar ships since you can shut off their tank much easier due to Minmatar ships typically having poor capacitors...

Since we are talking "typically", then neuts are completely useless against Winmatar since they have capless weapons and most frequently employ shield/plate buffers (due to having poor capacitors) .. Just sayin' Smile
Mara Rinn wrote:
So the racial EWAR is quite intuitive, from a certain point of view.

Truer words are hard to find .. then again with wording like that it can be said about anything Big smile
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-04-22 09:08:52 UTC
Good thing no one runs RP fleet comps or this would be an actual problem!

God's Apples wrote:
AlsoAC's have the best tracking of any turret so webs and TP would be more helpful for another race such as amarr.


They do not anymore.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-04-22 09:10:23 UTC
Even more peculiar are the following facts:
1) Minmatar ships such as the Hurricane and Typhoon are common users of neuts and use neuts more often than their own racial EWAR!
2) Amarr ships as they use cap hungry lasers are often the worst ships to put neuts on.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#10 - 2012-04-22 12:22:51 UTC
Racial ewar are not aimed at countering the opposing race, but emphasize on the strength of their race

Amarr have capacitor supremacy, their weapon use it because they have it, and the neut ensure them they keep the cap supremacy
Their weapons are highly versatile grace to their insta ammo switch, TD ensure them to have range advantage or no tracking disadvantage

Minmatar have the mobility superiority, their EWAR emphasize this even more : web give them even more relative speed,and TP allow them to better track their target for their autocanon which need to be very close from it, or with their arty which don't track very well ; in brief, TP allow them to use their speed more effectively

Gallente have the close range superiority, and their EWAR force the ennemy to close the range and stay in it : dampener force you to come close, and long point pin you in place at blaster range

Caldari, well, they sitting brick and don't have piloting skills (their ship are sitting bricks, and they either use missiles which pilote for them or very long range gun with no need to pilote or anything), so the only thing they can do to help them is shutting the ennemy electronic down to prevent him to fire... More seriously, their ewar emphasize their "caldari are superior" school of thought (they tend to come, stand still while firing without taking care of the ennemy position, and relying on their shield to survive)

About the minmatar and neut, they used to have weapons which use capacitor, and I think they should never have been changed in this regards

Infact, all ewar can be very usefull on any ship, so seeking for the best ewar for a race is irrelevant I think, and that should be analyzed according to war doctrine and school of thought of each race.
YuuKnow
The Scope
#11 - 2012-04-22 13:20:42 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
I was just reading a thread about lasers and someone mentioned that a solo sentinel will keep you from firing.

That brings me to the point that each race's recon actually works better against their own race than any of the others (with the exception of ECM, but no one likes ECM). It's kinda like shooting yourself in the foot.

Amarr - Neuts and TD. Lasers require the most cap of and weapon system and have the worst tracking.

Minmatar - Webs and TP. Minnie ships are speed/range/sig tanks.

Gallente - Super long points and Damps. Blasters don't have range and being able to scram at long point range doesn't help them. Combined with damps you're pretty done for, although that applies to most ships.

I'm not saying that anything is broken, just saying that it would make more sense if they were flipped. Amarr needs to counter minmatar's speed and range tank so they have long range webbing ships and make the sig bigger. Minmatar need to counter amarr by messing with their tracking and preventing their guns from firing. An amarr ship being webbed and made bigger won't do anything because they're probably not moving in the first place. Neuting out a minmatar ship won't do anything because their guns don't need any cap to kill you.


There is much truth to this. If Eve ships were setup in an inuitive fashion, then the Minmatar would have neuts to drain the cap of the cap hungry Lasers. Amarr would have webs to mitigate the speed of the Minmatar.

Caldari ECM is still pretty generalized however, and Gallante scram range helps to mitigate their need for close ranged shooting (can scram at a longer distance to help get in close as well as their Damps help to neutralize long range opponents..

However se la Eve
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#12 - 2012-04-22 13:55:33 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
It is true that it is strange Amarr EWAR is weak against Minnie ships.
Even beyond that, Amarr frigs are bad against Minnie frigates due to the high EM resists.
However, if you gave the Minnie race cap warfare instead of the Amarr, Minnie would be even more OP than it is now.

All races' T2 ships have a resist bonus to the T2 ammo of their opposing faction. Amarr ships are particularly good against explosive damage, which is dealt T2 projectile ammo.

thhief ghabmoef

Katalci
Kismesis
#13 - 2012-04-22 21:07:20 UTC
Tell me how fast that Minmatar ship is going when it has 0 cap.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-04-22 21:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
YuuKnow wrote:

There is much truth to this. If Eve ships were setup in an inuitive fashion, then the Minmatar would have neuts to drain the cap of the cap hungry Lasers. Amarr would have webs to mitigate the speed of the Minmatar.


Actually, the Minmatar DO have neuts to drain the cap of cap hungry Lasers.
Hurricane: Almost standard to use TWO medium neuts in the utility slots.
Typhoon: Almost always has a Heavy Neut or 3.
Vagabond: Standard to have a Neut to handle frigates or a Nos to power the MWD.

Compare to Amarr:
Harbinger: At the most, one neut as only one utility slot. And that neut competes with laser cap usage.
Harbinger with 1 neut vs Hurricane with 2 neuts = neuted Harbinger and easy victory for Hurricane.
Armageddon: Neuts compete with laser cap usage. If the enemy has neuts too you are in trouble.
Zealot: No slots for neuts.

In fact, it would not be at all incorrect to say that Minmatar is the Neut race, as it has more ships than Amarr that can fit neuts without affecting weapon use!
Sure Amarr has the bonused Pilgrim and Curse. But outside Pilgrim and Curse, fitting neuts on laser ships is asking for trouble.
Whereas Minmatar can and do stick neuts on so very many of their ships since they have the utility slots and capless weapons.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#15 - 2012-04-23 03:39:29 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
IGallente - Super long points and Damps. Blasters don't have range and being able to scram at long point range doesn't help them. Combined with damps you're pretty done for, although that applies to most ships.



Gallente ships....and I know this is heresy to some....can fit rails too.

Also you are forgetting recons are support ships. give them some friends and the bonii make sense..

Winmatar vs amarr for example. Minny recons on bubbles. Uber plate amarr ship and I'll throw in slaves to be nice. Already burns out the bubble slow. Slap it with webs. Now its going so slow it goes backwards in time. More time for even a small camp to chip way that armour. TP's....even a noob drake pilot with crap for missile support skills is getting more bite from missiles hits from the TP bonus. Or any noob gunners with crap tracking skills.