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So....does everyone have Desssie/BC V
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Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2012-05-06 08:13:55 UTC
Well, I guess then I'll have time to get my two mains to BC lvl 5 on both my accounts, and then my secondary and tertiary characters on those two accounts to BC IV, dessy IV.

Quote:
In my opinion this entire change is ******* ******** though. It does not make things simpler for ANYONE. It just adds more time that you will have to spend training and in turn gives CCP more money from your subscription.


I completely agree - if they think BC skill is too broad and abnormal because it allows one proficiency in all races BCs, I've already proposed a simple solution:

On battle CRUISER hulls, the BC skill only grants one bonus, the other bonus comes from the racial CRUISER Skill

The same goes for destroyers and racial frigate skills.

No more training one skill to lvl 5, and having perfect hull bonuses for all 4 races...

For noobs when they first sit in a BC hull, they already have 1 bonus to lvl 3 (I guess it should be the tanking/cap bonus to make it more noob friendly)
Kalli Brixzat
#82 - 2012-05-07 15:45:51 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Well, I guess then I'll have time to get my two mains to BC lvl 5 on both my accounts, and then my secondary and tertiary characters on those two accounts to BC IV, dessy IV.

Quote:
In my opinion this entire change is ******* ******** though. It does not make things simpler for ANYONE. It just adds more time that you will have to spend training and in turn gives CCP more money from your subscription.


I completely agree - if they think BC skill is too broad and abnormal because it allows one proficiency in all races BCs, I've already proposed a simple solution:

On battle CRUISER hulls, the BC skill only grants one bonus, the other bonus comes from the racial CRUISER Skill

The same goes for destroyers and racial frigate skills.

No more training one skill to lvl 5, and having perfect hull bonuses for all 4 races...

For noobs when they first sit in a BC hull, they already have 1 bonus to lvl 3 (I guess it should be the tanking/cap bonus to make it more noob friendly)


BC and Destroyers are different because they were added later. As opposed to the core ships (FR, CR, BS), which are divided into the 4 racial variant-skills.

The change is coming...at some point.
The Cake
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-05-07 20:36:27 UTC
"If and when such changes occur, we would remove the generic Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills, reimburse the skill points (and possibly the cost) not to penalize players"


I just skimmed the thread, didn't see anyone mention that quote. It seems pretty straightforwardly saying no free SKP.

However, if you're on a Per/Will remap then it could be a nice way of getting a bonus charisma or int/mem skill.
Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-05-08 07:32:37 UTC
The Cake wrote:
"If and when such changes occur, we would remove the generic Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills, reimburse the skill points (and possibly the cost) not to penalize players"


I just skimmed the thread, didn't see anyone mention that quote. It seems pretty straightforwardly saying no free SKP.

However, if you're on a Per/Will remap then it could be a nice way of getting a bonus charisma or int/mem skill.


It's true.

But it's undeniable that CCP also stated that if you could fly it BEFORE, you will be able to fly it AFTER the changes.

I can now fly all Destroyers and Battlecruisers with skill Lvl V.

Simply reimbursing me roughly 2m SP means I will need to devote 6 MILLION SP to training for ships I can fly now.

Simply reimbursing me those 2 skills means I WILL be penalized. Forcing me to train 6m SP for ZERO gain is not fair.

So, what would the best solution be?

In my opinion, CCP should not hand over 6m SP to those with such skills trained. They should just give us the SKILLS, ALREADY TRAINED TO V. Just log in to discover all Destroyers trained to V and all Battlecruisers trained to V.

My overall SP would increase, yes, but with ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGES from the current status. My character stays THE SAME, which is what I want. And I'd have to get more expensive clones, too.
Heun zero
MAYHEM BOYZ
#85 - 2012-05-08 10:11:20 UTC
Darius Brinn wrote:

Simply reimbursing me roughly 2m SP means I will need to devote 6 MILLION SP to training for ships I can fly now.

Simply reimbursing me those 2 skills means I WILL be penalized. Forcing me to train 6m SP for ZERO gain is not fair.

So, what would the best solution be?

In my opinion, CCP should not hand over 6m SP to those with such skills trained. They should just give us the SKILLS, ALREADY TRAINED TO V. Just log in to discover all Destroyers trained to V and all Battlecruisers trained to V.

My overall SP would increase, yes, but with ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGES from the current status. My character stays THE SAME, which is what I want. And I'd have to get more expensive clones, too.



I disagree with you. I know it's **** that you'd have to train 3 rank 6 and 3 rank 2 skills again just to be able to fly what you could before. But I find it more logical if ccp just reimburses the SP and allows you to invest it into the skill(s) of your choice. Even though this will penalize players who have trained those skills before.

CCP is a bit too worried about pissing players off sometime, so I think they'll just give everyone all the racial bc and destroyer skills as long as you have the appropriate pre-reqs
Klown Walk
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-05-08 11:05:07 UTC
Had bc 5 for a year now I think and don´t care about destroyers.
Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2012-05-08 11:37:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Darius Brinn
Heun zero wrote:


I disagree with you. I know it's **** that you'd have to train 3 rank 6 and 3 rank 2 skills again just to be able to fly what you could before. But I find it more logical if ccp just reimburses the SP and allows you to invest it into the skill(s) of your choice. Even though this will penalize players who have trained those skills before.

CCP is a bit too worried about pissing players off sometime, so I think they'll just give everyone all the racial bc and destroyer skills as long as you have the appropriate pre-reqs


I see nothing logical in what you propose. To me, the ideal situation would imply these two things:

-No player is penalized in the ships they can fly, or their level of proficiency (toons stay the same)
-No free SP which could be allocated elsewhere.

So, giving me ALL racial BC and Destroyers skills at Level V is PERFECT:

-My character will not be better in any sense.
-The SP I put into flying Destroyers and Battlecruisers remain there.

I will take the higher clone expenses, no problems. But ANY other solutions would not make any sense.

Giving me Gallente Battlecruiser V? Forcing me to train 20 extra days to fly my Hurricane to the proficiency I got now? Then ANOTHER 20 days to fly my Naga? Then 7 or 9 more for the Thrasher?

No thanks. That makes absolutely no sense: it would PUNISH my character for NO REASON.

Is there anything I'm missing here? Any potential exploits, abuses or well-thought motives that would justify crippling my character?

If they indeed exist, please let me hear them. But no taking things from me "just because", please.
Vandir Rael
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-05-08 18:39:22 UTC
I don't really understand why CCP wants to change those skills...

- If they reimburse the SP it will be an hard hit for older players that will have to re-train all their ships

- if they give level 5 skills to whoever had it before they will just create a wider gap between old and new player, and newbies do not need to have an even more difficoult learning curvethan they have now...

If they wanted racial BC skills they should have created them that way, it seems to me that now it's too late to change their mind...
I don't really understand Straight
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#89 - 2012-05-09 01:09:38 UTC
Heun zero wrote:

I disagree with you. I know it's **** that you'd have to train 3 rank 6 and 3 rank 2 skills again just to be able to fly what you could before. But I find it more logical if ccp just reimburses the SP and allows you to invest it into the skill(s) of your choice. Even though this will penalize players who have trained those skills before.

CCP is a bit too worried about pissing players off sometime, so I think they'll just give everyone all the racial bc and destroyer skills as long as you have the appropriate pre-reqs


Somebody wants to move his BC and Destroyer skills somewhere else Roll That approach makes no sense as there are a huge number of people who have trained BC/Des to V and fly more than 1 race BC/Des thus crapping all over these people, I'm at around 20m+ sp now, if it gets reimbursed as you mentioned, I'll have to re-train 30% of my total skills points just to be at the same level.
Heun zero
MAYHEM BOYZ
#90 - 2012-05-09 07:21:51 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:

Somebody wants to move his BC and Destroyer skills somewhere else Roll That approach makes no sense as there are a huge number of people who have trained BC/Des to V and fly more than 1 race BC/Des thus crapping all over these people, I'm at around 20m+ sp now, if it gets reimbursed as you mentioned, I'll have to re-train 30% of my total skills points just to be at the same level.


I dont want to move my BC and destroyer skill elsewhere. I hadnt trained up my destroyer skill past lvl 2 up untill now and I fly my nighthawk on a regular basis so I dont want to loose that. Actually I think that training BC 5 was one of the more usefull skills I've trained. Besides can you and do you fly all races destroyers and BC right now? If only 1 then you're still at the same level and for each other one you can fly yes, you'd have to train up some extra skills

But that aside, the way I look at it is that is that it has never really made sense that those skills havent been racial skills all the time. I was actually (pleasantly) suprised when I first started training the BC that it wasnt a racial skill. So we've just been lucky so far.

By giving everyone all the racial skills at the lvl the now have the destroyer and the BC skill CCP is practically forcing people to train the skills now if they havent already or be left behind on everyone else. This is not so much a problem for older players as generally they either have the skills trained up already or they have a non combat char which doesnt need the skill anyway.

For new players it means that they either have to invest in those skills pronto or they have to accept that the gap between them and the veteran players will become a little bigger. This is the last thing the game needs even though it's only a one time change.

just my 2 cents though

But as I said before I dont think ccp will just reimburse the sp you have trained now, because as you said it means that a lot of players will feel like something has been taken from them.

p.s.
Darius Brinn wrote:

I will take the higher clone expenses


I dont think this is that big of a deal that you could actually use that as an argument, unless you get podded every other day
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#91 - 2012-05-09 10:15:59 UTC
8 days for command ships with bc 5 Twisted
I'm just wondering will they do the freighters also and put them inline with other skills.


logicaly it should go
industrial 4 -> freighter (this was said i belive)
BUT will it also be
freighter 5 -> jump freighters

Twisted
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-05-09 11:53:12 UTC
Morgan Dinn wrote:
logicaly it should go
industrial 4 -> freighter (this was said i belive)
BUT will it also be
freighter 5 -> jump freighters


This is what I remember. Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense.

Good thing I don't have to do freighter 5 any time soon again.
Elsbeth Taron
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2012-06-17 20:34:00 UTC
Think I've understood what this is all about, and think it's a waste of time.

Destroyers use frigate-sized modules so they're basically frigates imo. Having trained already the racial frigate skill I think it's unnecessary to require racial destroyer training. How about the relevant destroyer requiring racial frigate V in order to fly it, with the destroyer skill giving extra bonuses, not much change from now?

Same line of thinking with cruisers/BC.

MUCH easier to implement and no faffing around with SP refund, extra training, blah-blah.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-06-18 05:09:44 UTC
Elsbeth Taron wrote:
How about the relevant destroyer requiring racial frigate V in order to fly it, with the destroyer skill giving extra bonuses, not much change from now?


So destroyers would be T2 frigates, eh?
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#95 - 2012-06-23 04:13:05 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
I completely agree - if they think BC skill is too broad and abnormal because it allows one proficiency in all races BCs, I've already proposed a simple solution:


BC skill benefits _twelve_ distinct ships (counting T1 only). Each frigate skill benefits _six_, each cruiser skill _four_, and each BS skill _three_. You don't think maybe there's a legitimate complaint that it gives you access to more stuff than in should?

Making it a racial skill puts it on par with BS and Cruiser, which makes sense. Your complaint sort of makes sense for destroyers, which only gives 4 ships and they're essentially the same ship to begin with, but not for BCs. BCs really needed to be split.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2012-06-23 13:56:40 UTC
Lost Greybeard wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
I completely agree - if they think BC skill is too broad and abnormal because it allows one proficiency in all races BCs, I've already proposed a simple solution:


BC skill benefits _twelve_ distinct ships (counting T1 only). Each frigate skill benefits _six_, each cruiser skill _four_, and each BS skill _three_. You don't think maybe there's a legitimate complaint that it gives you access to more stuff than in should?

Making it a racial skill puts it on par with BS and Cruiser, which makes sense. Your complaint sort of makes sense for destroyers, which only gives 4 ships and they're essentially the same ship to begin with, but not for BCs. BCs really needed to be split.


Which is also the reason CCP is introducing new destroyers first.
Demonfuge Malevolent
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2012-06-24 11:12:06 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
I know similar topics have been made, but this isn't for discussion, I just want to know how many trained BC V and Dessie V (with the prereqs for every race) just because of the upcoming skill split and possible HUGE sp giveaway tied to the whole "if you can fly it now, you can fly it post patch" notion. I know I did.

Also want to know who doesn't have BC/Dessie V and didn't immediately start training them the second the caught wind of the changes. Bittervets obviously already have both and probably all Cruiser/Frigate V.


Still have 2 months to run on the Int/Mem remap... was then going to remap for the social/trade skills BUT I will probably have to go to Per/Will again instead for BC/Dessie V. Every so often I petition CCP to check if there's an implementation date for this yet... if I catch wind of a fixed date I'll have to jettison the remaining Int/Mem and go straight on to BC/Dessie V.
Dave stark
#98 - 2012-06-24 11:15:18 UTC
Demonfuge Malevolent wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
I know similar topics have been made, but this isn't for discussion, I just want to know how many trained BC V and Dessie V (with the prereqs for every race) just because of the upcoming skill split and possible HUGE sp giveaway tied to the whole "if you can fly it now, you can fly it post patch" notion. I know I did.

Also want to know who doesn't have BC/Dessie V and didn't immediately start training them the second the caught wind of the changes. Bittervets obviously already have both and probably all Cruiser/Frigate V.


Still have 2 months to run on the Int/Mem remap... was then going to remap for the social/trade skills BUT I will probably have to go to Per/Will again instead for BC/Dessie V. Every so often I petition CCP to check if there's an implementation date for this yet... if I catch wind of a fixed date I'll have to jettison the remaining Int/Mem and go straight on to BC/Dessie V.


we know it's being done in ship size order, and they're not even finished with frigs, there's no words on the new destroyers other than a footnote on the mining barge blog...

safe to say you've got plenty of time. you'll probably get a free re-map xmas present before the changes so don't worry about it.
Glauron Darkshade
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-06-26 15:37:13 UTC
Perhaps another solution for CCP would be to create the 4 BC and DD skills at a lower x level, eg instead of BC being lvl 6, make it lvl 2.

This would allow them to minimize the new/old player gap caused by the 6m new skillpoints, and they could either reimburse the points at lvl6 for re-investment in the racial skills, OR give the 4 racial skills with a much smaller effect (eg clone level, free skillpoints etc).

It would also allow newer players to reach one race's high-BC levels faster (which seems to follow the CCP learning curve smoothing they have done over the years), while keeping the time required to crosstrain in sync with other types of ships (frigates, cruisers etc).
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2012-06-26 16:41:11 UTC
i got those skills on 2 my main characters. took time but these days BCs are very popular in roams and fleet ops.... so no loss

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"