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Better tank for the Industrial ships?
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Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#1 - 2012-04-20 06:15:14 UTC
Instead of making ganking impossible in Highsec, why not giving a better tank to industrial ships ?
Concord could arrive in time.
For example If the Hulk had an additional low slot and an additional med slot and 1000 HP more it would tank enough time with a damage controller and a large shield extender or an invulenerability shield...
Of course some miners would add a Mining upgrade more instead of a damage controller but they would know that the loss is their fault...

In 0.0 The hulk would become an interestening bait also...

It is just an idea... But it would be easy for CCP to try things like that to balanced risk/gain.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#2 - 2012-04-20 06:21:18 UTC

Quote:
In 0.0 The hulk would become an interestening bait also...


I find it hilariously unlikely that anyone would use a 400m ship that still has less tank than a battlecruiser to gank.


Anyway, I am not averse to hulks having the option to fit more tank. As long as effort is needed to tank it sounds very reasonable.
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#3 - 2012-04-20 06:32:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
I saw Freighters as bait ;-), Nothing can suprise me now.
And I speak about to add better tank to all Industrial ships. so It would be possible to bait with a bestower enough time for the fleet to arrive if the ennemies are 3 or less with fregates or cruisers. Or with one or two Battlecruisers.
Tanking correctly 800 dps for 30 secondes before explosion whith a full tanking fit, a point and compensation skills at 4 .... approximatively.

It would have to be experiment of course to see if it is possible.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#4 - 2012-04-24 06:03:04 UTC
I am surprised to have only one answer.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Liam Mirren
#5 - 2012-04-24 06:30:03 UTC
You're not getting answers as people simply don't see it that way, the active people that is.

A hulk is a mining ship, it CAN tank 0.0 belts if fitted for it, it can reach 25k EHP just fine on its own while still having one MLU (close to 29K EHP when using an orca with mining mindlink). It's sturdy enough to do mining but it's ofcourse not sturdy enough to survive a full-on attack but then, if a solo industrial ships gets attacked it SHOULD be in trouble.

Just like WCS is a last resort kind of thing when you get pointed (avoiding being pointed is your best defense) a Hulk's EHP is the same thing; a last resort for when everything else didn't work out. In many cases WCS doesn't work and that's as it should be; why would a single mod or stat make up for a chain of events that all went wrong? In case of being pointed you can use scouts, being aligned, MWD/cloak, you can have the firepower from friendlies to take care of the attacker or you can have so much firepower on the field they won't even DARE to attack. That is all effort but it's the EFFORT that ensures the safety, just as in 0.0 the effort of policing your space and defending your borders ensures a form of safety.

Now we come to hulks, lets be honest; what do most miners do? They don't do ****! They're clueless on the game, never bothered to learn a tiny bit on game mechanics, they don't talk, they don't pay attention, they don't check their Dscanner, they don't bring some military force to secure their assets and above else, they refuse to refit their hulk away from max mining efficiency. Effectively they're like an autistic kid that can only do one thing and fully focus on it completely forgetting everything around him. There's so many things miners can do to protect themselves it's silly but it all takes effort and then they'll have to learn stuff and perhaps (gasp) have to pay attention)!

So no, many of us don't agree with you because all you need is already in the game, it's just that the vast majority of Hulk pilots can't be bothered to make that happen.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
hungrymanbreakfast
Fixers Corporation
Pillars of Liberty
#6 - 2012-04-24 18:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: hungrymanbreakfast
A halfassed tank on a hulk will die in a fire to a tornado in one volley. Actually even with a hulk that has max tank fit, 2 tornados all t1 fit smash it. Also worth half the value of an unfit hulk. or 5 catalysts? The hulks should absolutely not have more armor or shield added. they shouldnt be able to easily tank out rats in nullsec. Hull points would enable them to survive in highsec against ganks and not have to completely design the ship towards tank instead of mining (which is what its built to do)

If I can literally fit anything I want for pvp onto any cruiser/bc while having a nice tank, why cant a mining ship at least have the tank to survive a few more seconds. PVP is fun but some people also like the industry aspect. Ganking them should be possible but should be left in the hands of people doing organized ganks, not solo gankers out for a laugh or to pad their killboard with a nice isk ratio.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#7 - 2012-04-24 21:58:44 UTC
Sure, I'll let you render hulks and indies ungankable.

Right after you make it so they can't mine or haul whilst they're in an NPC corp, and can't hop corp to avoid decs.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#8 - 2012-04-25 05:04:49 UTC
Of course the goal is not to make the Industrial ship ungankable.
But it is actually too easy to destroy a 400M isk ship with a 75M ship.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
hungrymanbreakfast
Fixers Corporation
Pillars of Liberty
#9 - 2012-05-03 01:52:27 UTC
Totally diffferent issue the wardec corp jumping. Apparently being addressed in the upcoming patch. Find another thread to hate on.

Simi Kusoni wrote:
Sure, I'll let you render hulks and indies ungankable.

Right after you make it so they can't mine or haul whilst they're in an NPC corp, and can't hop corp to avoid decs.
hungrymanbreakfast
Fixers Corporation
Pillars of Liberty
#10 - 2012-05-03 02:10:56 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
You're not getting answers as people simply don't see it that way, the active people that is.

A hulk is a mining ship, it CAN tank 0.0 belts if fitted for it, it can reach 25k EHP just fine on its own while still having one MLU (close to 29K EHP when using an orca with mining mindlink). It's sturdy enough to do mining but it's ofcourse not sturdy enough to survive a full-on attack but then, if a solo industrial ships gets attacked it SHOULD be in trouble.

Just like WCS is a last resort kind of thing when you get pointed (avoiding being pointed is your best defense) a Hulk's EHP is the same thing; a last resort for when everything else didn't work out. In many cases WCS doesn't work and that's as it should be; why would a single mod or stat make up for a chain of events that all went wrong? In case of being pointed you can use scouts, being aligned, MWD/cloak, you can have the firepower from friendlies to take care of the attacker or you can have so much firepower on the field they won't even DARE to attack. That is all effort but it's the EFFORT that ensures the safety, just as in 0.0 the effort of policing your space and defending your borders ensures a form of safety.

Now we come to hulks, lets be honest; what do most miners do? They don't do ****! They're clueless on the game, never bothered to learn a tiny bit on game mechanics, they don't talk, they don't pay attention, they don't check their Dscanner, they don't bring some military force to secure their assets and above else, they refuse to refit their hulk away from max mining efficiency. Effectively they're like an autistic kid that can only do one thing and fully focus on it completely forgetting everything around him. There's so many things miners can do to protect themselves it's silly but it all takes effort and then they'll have to learn stuff and perhaps (gasp) have to pay attention)!

So no, many of us don't agree with you because all you need is already in the game, it's just that the vast majority of Hulk pilots can't be bothered to make that happen.



This is what I'm saying though. You just don't want to listen.
The hulks being set up with 25k ehp are unable to mine without an orca as they have about 8k cargo space. Jetcan mine? yeah we know how that works already. Mining is what most noobies do. Why? Its daunting to jump into pvp when all you can afford is a single frigate. Might as well jump into something that can provide the minerals and money to make more with little percieved risk involved.
I'm not saying that an untanked hulk should survive anything in highec. The ISK invested to gank it is far too small. And no the tools to avoid a gank in high aren't there because most just use a cloaky warp in with people jumping into system and warping into killing range. 15-20 seconds to d-scan what? A battleship, or a tornado, or a few destroyers in highsec? Comon now. If you're in a system with more than 30 people how the hell are you gonna know that the ship on scan is headed to lol gank you and not just doing his own thing?
With a bit more hull points they wont be super powered ships unless they fit a DCU2. Which is what most clueless people that you are talking about wont do. With it they should be able to survive a fair bit, but as it stands they are horribly easy to gank. I Just did it recently too. We had so much time we got the pod. Buddy likely looked away for 15 seconds in highsec and 7 dessys worth a combined total of 10 mil isk stomped him and his max mining pod. Now thats 7 ships in .5 sec. I can see that happening even with alot of tank.
But giving the miners a chance to play a sandbox game their way shouldn't be too much to ask. And also that bit on miners not doing **** you honestly haven't been around a large organized mining crew. They talk on teamspeak and have a good time keeping things rolling, calling what needs to be hauled so that they can churn out ships to pvp with. I would love to join them as I used to enjoy making things in the game.... but after I did a few ganks, I realized just how unbalanced it is.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-05-03 03:42:34 UTC
third lowslot = stealth ganker buff as highsec miners forgo their t1 invulns to fit that 3rd MLU
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-05-03 04:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
hungrymanbreakfast wrote:
This is what I'm saying though. You just don't want to listen.
The hulks being set up with 25k ehp are unable to mine without an orca as they have about 8k cargo space. Jetcan mine? yeah we know how that works already. Mining is what most noobies do. Why? Its daunting to jump into pvp when all you can afford is a single frigate. Might as well jump into something that can provide the minerals and money to make more with little percieved risk involved.
I'm not saying that an untanked hulk should survive anything in highec. The ISK invested to gank it is far too small. And no the tools to avoid a gank in high aren't there because most just use a cloaky warp in with people jumping into system and warping into killing range. 15-20 seconds to d-scan what? A battleship, or a tornado, or a few destroyers in highsec? Comon now. If you're in a system with more than 30 people how the hell are you gonna know that the ship on scan is headed to lol gank you and not just doing his own thing?
With a bit more hull points they wont be super powered ships unless they fit a DCU2. Which is what most clueless people that you are talking about wont do. With it they should be able to survive a fair bit, but as it stands they are horribly easy to gank. I Just did it recently too. We had so much time we got the pod. Buddy likely looked away for 15 seconds in highsec and 7 dessys worth a combined total of 10 mil isk stomped him and his max mining pod. Now thats 7 ships in .5 sec. I can see that happening even with alot of tank.
But giving the miners a chance to play a sandbox game their way shouldn't be too much to ask. And also that bit on miners not doing **** you honestly haven't been around a large organized mining crew. They talk on teamspeak and have a good time keeping things rolling, calling what needs to be hauled so that they can churn out ships to pvp with. I would love to join them as I used to enjoy making things in the game.... but after I did a few ganks, I realized just how unbalanced it is.


What a whiney shiitpost. Ganking is never going to be a one for one trade. So harden the ffuck up. You can't mine without orca support with 8k cargo space? Moron. You are getting neither, more defense, cargo space or dumbed down mechanics so carry your pathetic ass back to Warcraft.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-05-03 04:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
.........
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#14 - 2012-05-03 04:43:06 UTC
hungrymanbreakfast wrote:
Totally diffferent issue the wardec corp jumping. Apparently being addressed in the upcoming patch. Find another thread to hate on.

Simi Kusoni wrote:
Sure, I'll let you render hulks and indies ungankable.

Right after you make it so they can't mine or haul whilst they're in an NPC corp, and can't hop corp to avoid decs.


Protip: haulers and Indies recieve no penalties for being in an NPC corp.

Therefore, even post-inferno, suicide ganking will be the only viable method by which to attack them.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#15 - 2012-05-03 04:52:14 UTC
It is true that the real problem is the T2 Barges.
Just adding more Shield, Armor and Hull hit points could be an enough solution. It would only change the time needed to destroy them without any other option.
Or perharps adding a med slot and enough CPU/Powergrid to fit a large shield extender... This option could though open other options that are unpredictable.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#16 - 2012-05-03 04:55:25 UTC
You know originally I thought that all the "buff mining ehp" threads were by idiots who refuse to tank their hulks.

But I went into EFT and tried to fit a hulk with as much tank as I could but still be able to mine. I gave it shield extender rigs, all hardeners in the mid slots, damage control, and 3 T2 strip miners. The most I could get was 25k EHP.

Three times the price tag of a battleship, half the tank of a shield hurricane.


I say we move mining barges to an armor tank. Give em more CPU and powergrid so they can actually try to fit a tank. Give them way more low slots and fewer mid slots. Now there is a bit of risk vs reward in mining, they could fill their entire rack of low slots with MLUs or they could fit a proper tank.

If you were willing to have a far lower yield you could be far more resistant to ganking. Or you could max out your mining yield and still get taken out by 3 thrashers like an an idiot.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#17 - 2012-05-03 05:09:09 UTC
Wolodymyr wrote:
You know originally I thought that all the "buff mining ehp" threads were by idiots who refuse to tank their hulks.

But I went into EFT and tried to fit a hulk with as much tank as I could but still be able to mine. I gave it shield extender rigs, all hardeners in the mid slots, damage control, and 3 T2 strip miners. The most I could get was 25k EHP.

Three times the price tag of a battleship, half the tank of a shield hurricane.


I say we move mining barges to an armor tank. Give em more CPU and powergrid so they can actually try to fit a tank. Give them way more low slots and fewer mid slots. Now there is a bit of risk vs reward in mining, they could fill their entire rack of low slots with MLUs or they could fit a proper tank.

If you were willing to have a far lower yield you could be far more resistant to ganking. Or you could max out your mining yield and still get taken out by 3 thrashers like an an idiot.


Not a bad idea. So your Barge could fit 3 MLU and 3 expanded cargohold or 2 800 mm plates, 3 armor hardeners and a damage control for example.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-05-03 05:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
Wolodymyr wrote:
You know originally I thought that all the "buff mining ehp" threads were by idiots who refuse to tank their hulks.

But I went into EFT and tried to fit a hulk with as much tank as I could but still be able to mine. I gave it shield extender rigs, all hardeners in the mid slots, damage control, and 3 T2 strip miners. The most I could get was 25k EHP.

Three times the price tag of a battleship, half the tank of a shield hurricane.


I say we move mining barges to an armor tank. Give em more CPU and powergrid so they can actually try to fit a tank. Give them way more low slots and fewer mid slots. Now there is a bit of risk vs reward in mining, they could fill their entire rack of low slots with MLUs or they could fit a proper tank.

If you were willing to have a far lower yield you could be far more resistant to ganking. Or you could max out your mining yield and still get taken out by 3 thrashers like an an idiot.



This was something that was brought up many times before, by the buff hulk people, (myself included) and cried at by people of the dont nerf ganking crowd (of which you were) I think someone said that they could get 30kehp, i forget how, but even that isnt great compared to the material cost of the ship, regardless of the market price.

I did a comparison of the materials used to make it (using the base goos) and the closest allegory is the Heavy interdictors.
now im not saying that Hulks should be tanked like interdictors, but there should be some realistic comparison of the material costs and the performance/survivability of any particular ship.

HUlk -> phobos comparison is a bit heavier on the phobos side, but not in my opinion enought to make it a bad corollary, for for a phobos in goo material costs. Arazu is significantly behind. and the example that showed up on another thread using the rapier, is so completely out of porportion its not funny.

I dont believe that ive seen anyone on these forums actually asking for ungankable hulks, maybe im not looking hard enough but adding a bit more tank to the hulks wont stop ganks, it will just be more inline with other ships of their costs.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Brom MkLeith
Epsilon Inc
#19 - 2012-05-03 05:36:21 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:

What a whiney shiitpost. Ganking is never going to be a one for one trade. So harden the ffuck up. You can't mine without orca support with 8k cargo space? Moron. You are getting neither, more defense, cargo space or dumbed down mechanics so carry your pathetic ass back to Warcraft.


Wow. This guy is a real hard ass. Look how tough he sounds. You mad Bro? That last post actually made sense. That's why you must be raging. Nobody really wants high sec to be completely safe. But, it should mean that someone should REALLY want to gank you. Not this chickenshit gankers paradise that CCP has created by gimping Exhumers while buffing a lousy little 12m maxed out dessy.

You want fire? You want conflict? Give the indy pilots a 12m ISK, T1 Industrial Dessy and specialized T2 Salvagers that can disassemble a 200mil ISK battleship in 15seconds sitting in .7 sec space. What? You don't like that? If it was really about the "Sandbox" then you would be creaming your pants just imagining it.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-05-03 05:41:12 UTC
I agree it's too easy to gank. The consequences are easily and quickly rectified. The consequences of being ranked can be "felt" for a long time henceforth.

Discrepancy?

It knows what you think.
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