These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

GONE FISHING...
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#41 - 2012-04-20 08:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
A player should be able to have 15-20 thousand EHP on a Hulk, at the expense of a few low slots.


They can...

Yes, I know what you mean, but currently it's very clumsy. I envision a system in which all barges have a single middle slot for a scanner, and with the ability to fit, say, an 800mm plate (400mm for T1 barges?), would work better. Maybe even change the exhumer resist bonus into an armor amount bonus. At that point, the risk-reward concept should become much more obvious to miners.


And now we have super mining hulks with lows stuffed full of MLU and still dieing to destroyers.

You can already fit a hulk with a 20k buffer, rock scanner and an MLU so there is no need at all for CCP to change anything. Its down to the pilot to fit it.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#42 - 2012-04-20 09:23:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
A player should be able to have 15-20 thousand EHP on a Hulk, at the expense of a few low slots.


They can...

Yes, I know what you mean, but currently it's very clumsy. I envision a system in which all barges have a single middle slot for a scanner, and with the ability to fit, say, an 800mm plate (400mm for T1 barges?), would work better. Maybe even change the exhumer resist bonus into an armor amount bonus. At that point, the risk-reward concept should become much more obvious to miners.


And now we have super mining hulks with lows stuffed full of MLU and still dieing to destroyers.

You can already fit a hulk with a 20k buffer, rock scanner and an MLU so there is no need at all for CCP to change anything. Its down to the pilot to fit it.

I simply dislike the idea of multi-stage tanking, but that's my own personal opinion. Yes, in practice, Hulks can already have decent EHP with a proper setup, so a change isn't really needed.

The real problem is the risk balance ratio between cheap T1 gank ships and Hulks. However, the prices of ships are set by the players. Hulks cost 200 (and now, 300) million not because CCP put them on the market for that much, but because they're relatively expensive to make, and also command higher profit margins. There might actually be no viable solution for this problem, aside from rebalancing moon goo so that T2 ships are cheaper to make.

I mean, even as a ganker, I know that three or four T1-fit Catalysts being able to gank a Hulk isn't balanced. However, we need destroyers to be capable of such high output to make them viable for PvP. A single Catalyst does almost the same dps that a single Tornado can pull off with artillery (albeit it lacks the alpha). Losing two Tornadoes by ganking costs significantly more than losing four Catalysts. And we can't make destroyers more expensive because they are too fragile; and if we make them less fragile, then they essentially become cruisers.

Somewhere down the line, ship stats became really skewed, and now we're paying the price by having CCP change CONCORD and aggression mechanics to compensate. I don't like it at all.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-04-20 09:26:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aqriue wrote:


Now, if the hulk pilot is responsible for a tank then of course the same responiblity should be for the guy getting tracked by XL guns should upgrade to a capital ship with a buffer to counter the Titan. Problem solved, we leave Hulks as is and un-nerf Titans since CCP doesn't need to get involved. Balance as it should be Twisted


Problem with that argument is that the hulk CAN tank if you fit it with one where as the titans invalidate 90% of all ships in the game.

this is not a problem. this is FAULT of pro-pvpers to no prepare enough tank. Big smile
after all you have lots of slots in your ships! why you put damage mods into those slots when you can gimp your tank instead? Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
OmniBeton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-04-20 09:36:08 UTC
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why would CCP do anything? Its barge pilots fault for not fitting a tank.


baltec....Tell me something. Do you not fit your ships to have them perform at top efficiency for the activity you are using them for? So why would a miner do any differently? Fitting a tank to a barge comes at the cost of mining effieciency. I'm not much of an industrialist, I have a character that mines on occasion when I don't feel like scanning, running missions, or trying to pick a fight.

Why should a miner be forced to fit a tank to mine because of gankers?

It's like trying to say PVP'ers should be forced to gimp their PVP ships with one less tank module or gun.
I understand this is primarily a PVP game and I have nothing against it. I enjoy my PVP when I get some just like the next guy/girl. I'm just curious to know why a lot of people feel that miners are not entitled to peak efficiency for their ships.


And beeing killed rarely is not a measure of effeciency ?

It's like PVPer crying he has gimp their PVP ships with one less tank module or gun to put point and MWD instead.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#45 - 2012-04-20 09:37:57 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aqriue wrote:


Now, if the hulk pilot is responsible for a tank then of course the same responiblity should be for the guy getting tracked by XL guns should upgrade to a capital ship with a buffer to counter the Titan. Problem solved, we leave Hulks as is and un-nerf Titans since CCP doesn't need to get involved. Balance as it should be Twisted


Problem with that argument is that the hulk CAN tank if you fit it with one where as the titans invalidate 90% of all ships in the game.

this is not a problem. this is FAULT of pro-pvpers to no prepare enough tank. Big smile
after all you have lots of slots in your ships! why you put damage mods into those slots when you can gimp your tank instead? Cool

Titan pilots do not automatically lose their titans after volleying other ships. Their ability to do so has significantly hampered 0.0 PvP to the point that entities without significant supercapital assets have been completely marginalized. This has resulted in political stagnation in 0.0, because power and ownership have been concentrated in the hands of a few power blocs, leading to less PvP, and in turn economic stagnation. Meanwhile, in empire, constant destruction of PvE assets (barges, mission boats, faction loot) has led to a constant demand for minerals and modules.

Supercap imbalance hurts the game, while carebear suffering makes it prosper.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Jastra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-04-20 10:12:16 UTC
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why would CCP do anything? Its barge pilots fault for not fitting a tank.


baltec....Tell me something. Do you not fit your ships to have them perform at top efficiency for the activity you are using them for? So why would a miner do any differently? Fitting a tank to a barge comes at the cost of mining effieciency. I'm not much of an industrialist, I have a character that mines on occasion when I don't feel like scanning, running missions, or trying to pick a fight.

Why should a miner be forced to fit a tank to mine because of gankers?

It's like trying to say PVP'ers should be forced to gimp their PVP ships with one less tank module or gun.
I understand this is primarily a PVP game and I have nothing against it. I enjoy my PVP when I get some just like the next guy/girl. I'm just curious to know why a lot of people feel that miners are not entitled to peak efficiency for their ships.


I am divided over this debate but just this ^ really, you dont fit a PVP ship for semi PVE semi PVP as it's suboptimal - the description for the hulk says :

The Hulk is the largest craft in the second generation of mining vessels created by the ORE Syndicate. Exhumers, like their mining barge cousins, are equipped with electronic subsystems specifically designed to accommodate Strip Mining modules. They are also far more resilient, better able to handle the dangers of deep space. The Hulk is, bar none, the most efficient mining vessel available.

But clearly it is in need of a buff, for those of you saying "fit a tank" try it, seriously it isn't very easy without serious ISK or gimping your setup which is not somethign that you generally need to do for other ship types (I dont have to gimp a Domi to do either PVP or PVE for instance, it can easily do both with an excellent tank)

There is little doubt to me that a lot of Hulks are lost from sheer "not watching the game" but equally I suspect many are lost even when people are paying attention because it's easy to do

However much people want tears, say HTFU whatever, there needs to be more acceptance that people play in the sandbox in different ways and wanting to hold onto a 300m non combat ship is not really unreasonable when at the moment it can be ganked with a few dessies, the idea of it then being "able to handle the dangers of deep space" seem to me to be called into question when it cant even handle high sec destroyers

That said, you know, lots of ways of mining without being easily accessible to anyone without scan probes (though not for Ice)

As I say I am divided on the issue but to me the balance has shifted maybe a smidge to much in favour of the ganker

Oh and yes I haven't lost a hulk yet, but I do have one, but I hate it, it's name is Arduous Folly which reflects the time I spent skilling for it Big smile - buying minerals from the market FTW
Jastra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-04-20 10:18:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
A player should be able to have 15-20 thousand EHP on a Hulk, at the expense of a few low slots.


They can...

Yes, I know what you mean, but currently it's very clumsy. I envision a system in which all barges have a single middle slot for a scanner, and with the ability to fit, say, an 800mm plate (400mm for T1 barges?), would work better. Maybe even change the exhumer resist bonus into an armor amount bonus. At that point, the risk-reward concept should become much more obvious to miners.


And now we have super mining hulks with lows stuffed full of MLU and still dieing to destroyers.

You can already fit a hulk with a 20k buffer, rock scanner and an MLU so there is no need at all for CCP to change anything. Its down to the pilot to fit it.


can you share that fit, seriously if thats non faction then I'll just shut up and go away because if thats true then yeah I agree that may be working as intended
Francisco Bizzaro
#48 - 2012-04-20 10:29:56 UTC
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why would CCP do anything? Its barge pilots fault for not fitting a tank.


baltec....Tell me something. Do you not fit your ships to have them perform at top efficiency for the activity you are using them for? So why would a miner do any differently? Fitting a tank to a barge comes at the cost of mining effieciency. I'm not much of an industrialist, I have a character that mines on occasion when I don't feel like scanning, running missions, or trying to pick a fight.

Why should a miner be forced to fit a tank to mine because of gankers?

Because "top efficiency" includes factoring in the cost of losses. When you do that, you realize that an untanked hulk may not be operating at anywhere near top efficiency.

Quote:

It's like trying to say PVP'ers should be forced to gimp their PVP ships with one less tank module or gun.
I understand this is primarily a PVP game and I have nothing against it. I enjoy my PVP when I get some just like the next guy/girl. I'm just curious to know why a lot of people feel that miners are not entitled to peak efficiency for their ships.

But gankers do gimp their ships in order to be more efficient. They don't fly the most expensive ships with officer modules for exactly this reason - they sacrifice performance in order to minimize losses. Almost every profession in the game requires this sort of compromise, and it is only high-sec mission/incursion runners and miners who choose not to.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2012-04-20 11:37:55 UTC
Jastra wrote:


can you share that fit, seriously if thats non faction then I'll just shut up and go away because if thats true then yeah I agree that may be working as intended


[Hulk, New Setup 1]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Small Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Survey Scanner II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Mining Drone II x5
Warrior II x5
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#50 - 2012-04-20 12:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
ix z'el wrote:


GONE FISHING...



You need to learn to NOT CARE.

"CareBears don't care so much they don't come to your space, and they don't harass you, and indeed they don't even fight back. That is the ultimate don't care and there isn't anything you can do, short of dying of starvation, next to a pack of Cheetos, that will demostrate a don't care level beyond that of the CareBear." - Mass Attack

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-04-20 12:30:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuri Kinnes
ix z'el wrote:
GONE FISHING...

I feel for you.

But even irl - a few thousand dollars worth of Hi-Explosives, correctly applied, can accomplish the demolition of even the largest building.

Point being this: A small force, applied in the right place, at the right time can accomplish great/terrible things.


Good Luck fishing m8.
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Maybe something about minerals you mine being free, or something along those lines?

The *only* opportunity cost that matters was decided when someone decides to play the game and not do something else. E-O has a great "in game economy", but ultimately, if someone thinks their minerals are free, the only way they are absolutely wrong is not counting in the the subscription price to their cost. They are in game, therefore there is no "opportunity cost" other than that of "the game" itself.
Serene Repose wrote:
Balderdash.

You might actually be 56..... Shocked
Serene Repose wrote:
That CCP has skewed the game in this direction, and refuses to UNskew it only proves whose side they're on.

Please tell me this does not come as a surprise to you? The game is going on 10 years old.... I admit that ccp has changed the game to be more casual/non-pvp friendly, but do you think they don't know this is going on? That "ZOMG! Hulks are getting ganked in Hi-Sec!" is going to be a revelation to them? That is the game they've developed over the last (almost) 10 years...
Serene Repose wrote:
PvP isn't the point of EVE. Calling ganking miners "PvP" is like calling wearing your daddy's shoes "being grown up." If you all were such badasses, you'd be where actual well-fitted, amply-skilled combat pilots roam, taking your chances on your own skills. The fact you're NOT is proof you CAN'T. If you can swim, what're you doing in the wading pool?

Sell this smack to some blind, deaf, fool.

PVP may *not* be the "point" of Eve (i think it is, actually) but it certainly drives everything in the economy.... Also, after 10 years of game, there are pilots of every skill level, everywhere in New Eden. Burnout drives some from Hi-Sec to null/low/wh's. Burnout can also drive pilots from Null/Low/WH's to hi-sec.

Ultimately, PVP means "Player vrs Player conflict". Whether that conflict takes place in the belts, at the gates, on a wormhole, in hi-sec/low/null or on the markets is irrelevant. It's all "pvp" of one sort or another.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-04-20 12:43:42 UTC
I used to run a 3 ship + Orca mining fleet until I realized I was going insane. And what I would do is put shield transporters in the Orca's highs and just leave them on the hulks constantly. Also fitted tank to the hulks instead of mining boosts. I know If gangkers really wanted to they could have killed me still. But most of them are so used to easy targets they wont even bother if you just do that little effort.

Only problem with that is you have to stay close together which means when the smartbombing ganker sees it you will be first pick!

Ferox #1
Sidrun
Life sucks then you die Ltd.
#53 - 2012-04-20 12:49:21 UTC
ix z'el wrote:
recently i had a mining alt ganked in hi sec during a mining op. 'big deal it happens all the time'. a couple of years ago i lost two hulks to a player named HOETHE. it began with him flipping my can and my getting mad and engaging him with 15 drones and a battleship. he was flying a jaguar. little did i know that i was completely out gunned. to my surprise hoethe killed all 15 drones, then he killed my two hulks, and then he commenced to attack my abbadon. while he was attacking my battleship i got an eve mail demanding 50 million isk or he'd blow up my ship. at this point i was laughing my ass off at the complete absurdity of the situation. i sent a reply like yah right. he laughed like i did. i ended talking with hoethe for quite a while and i have to admit even to this day i will look up his character on the killboards to see what he's been up to because i actually respected his skill. even if it did cost me a half billion in ships it was a good laugh and thats what mattered.

the point im making is i chose to engage. with the recent changes ccp made now its just plain **** by 15 million isk cheap ass ships that can kill 300 mil isk ships just to get on the killboards. in truth there is no real skill involved outside a bit of strategy and scouting to setup the gank. the gank itself is over in a matter of seconds. so is it worth it to keep mining? what does it matter right? lets put it into perspective. im one player with 5 alts. i created my own corp and when i started playing eve i chose to follow the mining industry path because to be honest i hate pvp. i was chatting with another player a couple of days ago that is an avid pvp and when i told him i avoid it he got real quiet for a minute then he types back uhhh youve been playing eve for 3 years? yep. and youve never gotten into pvp? nope. then what have you been doing in eve all this time? when i told him mining, industry, research, and missions it boggled his mind. ccp has been so focused on creating situations to put people into conflict that they lost sight of the fact some people prefer not to be involved in it. little 1-4 man corps based in hi sec that just want to be left alone to pursue their own thing without others hassling them. imagine the concept! or maybe you cant?

so what? right? care bear tears blah blah blah

heres the situation. my accounts are all due for renewal in june. i had it in mind to mine over the next 8 weeks to make enough isk to plex my accounts and keep my accounts active. then i got ganked. then its announced hulkageddon 5 is coming and will probably last a month or so. there is much fan fair by players about how great its going to be to gank the care bears. i got news for everyone. i wont be there guys. since i cant mine in peace to make enough isk to plex my accounts i realized there is no sense in having all those accounts. so i am going to cancel four of my five accounts. thats 80 dollars a month real cash that hilmar isnt getting from someone who has played eve for 3 years and doesnt like all the obstacles they have created for me just to mine some ore. if u look on my hangar door there will be a sign

GONE FISHING...


The thing is: CCP, created a sandbox. That sandbox creates the opportunity for people to destroy your ships, BUT it also creates the opportunity for you to defend yourself. You've just chosen not to. The mechanics are all there man, you just need to choose to use them. That said, I DO think hulks need a bit of a buff, not that it would have helped you.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#54 - 2012-04-20 12:50:12 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Maybe something about minerals you mine being free, or something along those lines?

The *only* opportunity cost that matters was decided when someone decides to play the game and not do something else. E-O has a great "in game economy", but ultimately, if someone thinks their minerals are free, the only way they are absolutely wrong is not counting in the the subscription price to their cost. They are in game, therefore there is no "opportunity cost" other than that of "the game" itself.


Just to inflate this side-track:

"Free" may just be the wrong word to think about in this case.

I approach from the standpoint of how much profit I can make with the least mining possible.

4 hours of mining ice for 4 Orca Loads (2 Macks involved here).....certainly there is an ISK value on the refined Ice Products which can be sold directly. Add to that an hour of PI, and combined with the Ice Products, out comes Fuel Blocks which nearly quadruples that Ice Product value....by only adding that hour of PI.

"Free" is the wrong word. It's more along the lines of the degree to which they contribute towards profit.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Knug LiDi
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2012-04-20 13:01:13 UTC
What I will add to this discussion, is only this:

The folks that either enjoy or condone ganking mining vessels always point to the potential tanking ability of a hulk (at the cost of efficiency)

Fine.

You do realize that the hulk is a T2 ship and as such is vastly superior to the t1 version.

For a fair discussion on the abilities of mining ships to resist ganking attacks, do your analysis based on t1 ship abilities. You'll find that the t1 barges are entirely incapable of tanking.

A bloody stiff breeze will kill them.

Oh, and make sure you differentiate between tanking but still functional vs overtanked and gimped ship.

And as for the moron that suggested having your own guardian on the field, you really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?



If only we could fall into a woman's arms

without falling into her hands
seany1212
M Y S T
#56 - 2012-04-20 13:03:36 UTC
You wouldn't go into a mission or pvp without a tank, why do miners think they are an exception? AND then result in crying their eyes out on the forum about it?! Miners should be tanking against the world instead of thinking the world is risk free.

For the OP who is 'quitting' as mining is potentially about to become the most valuable profession in the game depending how the market goes then EVE or even any other game is clearly not for you Roll
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-04-20 13:04:07 UTC
xD Use the Guardian to armour rep your hulks! Now we are unstoppable! I also use Guardians to rep my Nightmare and Tengu in missions! It is the real OP ship here.

Ferox #1
Warpshade
Warped Industries
#58 - 2012-04-20 13:16:52 UTC
Unfortunately I cant agree with the OP's point of view, because it's built off a flawed perspective of Eve (imho). The Game is the game, CCP designed the game with one rule set, for people to play by. People can choose to the play the game, however they wish within the design of Eve; If that means playing within Eve as a Miner, at the risk of potentially being ganked, then that is what you have accepted to play.

Not for people to play Eve, decide what aspect they like, then try to bend the rule set of Eve to their will. This basically boils down to an argument of wanting PvE/PvP servers.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#59 - 2012-04-20 13:19:17 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

One of the oldest fallacies in EVE.

In reality, the majority of the most competent PvPers in the game live in/base out of empire space.


wtf?

.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#60 - 2012-04-20 13:22:29 UTC
Knug LiDi wrote:
What I will add to this discussion, is only this:



Yup. And isn't it almost psychotic how they insist that engaging and popping a paper-bag of a Mack is PvP and NOT akin to a suicidal Terrorist Attack ?

These Idiots would blame the World Trade Center Towers for not being tanked with 10 foot Lead Sheets.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882