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EVE: Carbon Avatar based gameplay as a separate game

Author
Ai Shun
#21 - 2012-04-22 21:51:30 UTC
To illustrate the concept of a separate, yet linked game.

You have the standard WiS art and model assets in one data file. This is everything beyond the locked door.

  • This is optionally downloaded by the EVE client if an EVE player chooses to have WiS as part of their subscription (No additional cost)
  • This is a mandatory download for the Avatar client


You have WiS art and model assets for the Captain's Quarters in one data file. This is only the current Captain's Quarters.

  • This is a mandatory download for the EVE client
  • This is a mandatory download for the Avatar client


There is a WiS interface DLL that acts as the bridge.

  • This is a mandatory download for the EVE client
  • This is a mandatory download for the Avatar client.


Download of content is managed by the new launcher technology. (Good thing we have that!)

EVE Client:
The EVE client calls a function within the bridge DLL similar to:

Code wrote:

HRESULT __declspec(dllexport) fn_OpenDoor( DWORD dwCharacterID )
{
// Code goes here
}


This function, in the bridge DLL checks if the account is enabled for WiS.

If it is not, the door remains shut and the HRESULT indicates an error message similar to: "Your current Pilot License does not allow access to the station. Please see your local CONCORD agent for more information."

If it is, the door opens and a player can walk out into the WiS content.

Avatar Client:
If the current character is a capsuleer and their location is in a station; the client calls into the content for the Captain's Quarters. Thereafter the same code as above takes effect.

If the current character is a capsuleer and their current location is not in a station; the client calls into the appropriate WiS content launching point.

If the current character is not a capsuleer irrespective of location; the client calls into the appropriate WiS content launching point.

There you go. Two separate clients, shared assets, shared game-play and the ability to have a full development team and a full game developed to deliver WiS.

Seriously ... what is the downside?
Francisco Bizzaro
#22 - 2012-04-23 07:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Francisco Bizzaro
Dust514 will be a standalone game which runs on an independent platform, will (hopefully) finance itself, and will interact with Eve. If they can make that work, I don't see why WiS wouldn't be able to work under a similar model.

The link to Eve could be through the economy (or a subset of the economy), and maybe some interfaces by which the different games (3 of them) provide services to each other. The links could be loose or tight, or start out loose and tighten up later as they become more confident with the platform.
Ai Shun
#23 - 2012-04-23 07:47:41 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Dust514 will be a standalone game which runs on an independent platform, will (hopefully) finance itself, and will interact with Eve. If they can make that work, I don't see why WiS wouldn't be able to work under a similar model.

The link to Eve could be through the economy (or a subset of the economy), and maybe some interfaces by which the different games (3 of them) provide services to each other. The links could be loose or tight, or start out loose and tighten up later as they become more confident with the platform.


Yup, but they do need to give capsuleers the ability to play WiS and to have a transparent / seamless way into it from the start. My opinion, of course P
Adunh Slavy
#24 - 2012-04-23 08:54:45 UTC
There was an ancient thread, pre-incarna just before the storm landed on shore, that spoke to the same basic idea, a WiS component of Eve that was open to a "WiS only" sort of player. I tried to find it using Eve-Search but didn't have much luck.

A couple of the ideas I recall are below, excuse the brevity.

'Wis Only' play was free to play, but had micro-transactions available to buy Wis Only stuff and Nex items.

Some of the PVE things they could do would be go EVA out of stations and ships and fight beasties drones and each other. They could go EVA and mine asteroids and what not.

They could purchase flights on player ships and Eve players could transport them.

They could also purchase non-combat transport ships of rather limited size. They did not pilot the ships but could set a destination, and an NPC pilot would do the flying.

All Eve, Dust and Wis players could meet 'face to face' in stations.

'Wis Only' players could be used as shock troops in 'station battles'


... about all i recall from that.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Francisco Bizzaro
#25 - 2012-04-23 09:14:48 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Dust514 will be a standalone game which runs on an independent platform, will (hopefully) finance itself, and will interact with Eve. If they can make that work, I don't see why WiS wouldn't be able to work under a similar model.

The link to Eve could be through the economy (or a subset of the economy), and maybe some interfaces by which the different games (3 of them) provide services to each other. The links could be loose or tight, or start out loose and tighten up later as they become more confident with the platform.


Yup, but they do need to give capsuleers the ability to play WiS and to have a transparent / seamless way into it from the start. My opinion, of course P

Yeah, that would be ideal. But just from an architecture standpoint, what happens in station and what happens in space could be largely independent except for well-defined interfaces and some aspects of the economy.

And they could consider pricing models where you get FiS-only or WiS-only for $10, or both for $15 (... probably they would go with $15 and $20, but we might as well start with a low-ball proposal while we're just imagining).

Or if they are determined to follow up on the MT idea, they could try to fund the WiS game that way. But then the coupling between WiS and FiS becomes a more sensitive issue, because of the possibility to inject advantages to the FiS game via WiS microtransactions.
David Estarra
Starside Lost
#26 - 2012-04-23 12:41:36 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
David Estarra wrote:
A very well thought out post. I approve of this! +1


Thank you, appreciated. Do you want to add to it? Oh, and if you see DMC - point him at this please P


I really like the idea of having WiS available as a separate F2P entity. I think it would be an ideal way to bring new people into the world of New Eden, and solve the problem where you have people spread across the cluster and having interaction limited by only having a few people in station.

This could open up services in EVE - Capsuleers could ferry people between stations for example, and give another environment for people to interact - a ship mess hall maybe - although you run into the problems of being ganked.. I'm not sure how this could be addressed, as only the capsuleer would survive. I need to think more on this.

Potentially this would bring new pilots into the game, once they have a taste for New Eden they could opt to undergo the procedure to become a capsuleer and see more for themselves.

I for one look forward to the day when we get people mingling on the station from all walks of life - Capsuleers, Dusties and the Station dwellers. It would be social interaction on an unprecedented level. Some may ask where is the gameplay in this? The key point is that, for EVE, it would be optional. This formula is already very successful as Second Life has shown - there is a game that is built around social interaction and little to no actual gameplay, yet thousands of people log in every day.

[IMG]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/ChrisW73/DSigFinal.jpg[/IMG]

Katerwaul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-04-24 04:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Katerwaul
    TL;DR version
  • I don't want a separate game, but I can see it as being optional. Even to the point where a Capsuleer can "opt out" of the download for it & never leave their ship.
  • WiS benefits should make sense. If an NPC has X amount of money for a mission, you don't get more money just for showing up in person -- but you do get more respect from the NPC & more tolerance if you're picky about your missions and the occassional WiS mission offer for the NPC you're talking with (or information about an NPC who would offer you one).
  • "Dungeons" should be opportunities for exploration on a much more intimate level & provide a very gritty look at Ambulation, an aura of fear, and rewards that are the equivalent of the amount of time spent delving when compared to comparable missions.
  • WiS opportunities should have real & lasting effects on New Eden. When cutting edge discoveries are made, WiS should be there to find the grim beginnings and help uncover the truth.

--

I don't want Avatars & WiS to be separate from FiS. I'd be completely on board with making it optional, but I don't want to pay a separate game. There's lot of optional stuff in EVE already, but this one gives people a chance to get lost in the game they love in a new way.

I think WiS gives us a unique opportunity to really separate out how interactions work & really give us a broader view of EVE and the ways that it can really reflect real life.

--

Neocomming into an agent shouldn't be the same as walking through a station to talk with them. Clearly taking the time to talk with someone in person versus reporting through a monitor is a different level of respect. I'd imagine that it would be easier to smooth over hard feelings after declining a job and build a relationship with an agent over time. Does it mean you get more money? No, but I imagine they would speak more highly of you and it could prevent Sec penalties from declining missions and improve gain from succeeding on missions. I'd imagine that if they would let you know if they knew someone who was looking for a capsuleer with the willingness to take a step into the unknown without a curtain of nanofibers and titanium protecting them.

I feel that just like Planetary Interaction, Science & Production, Mining, etc... there should be something that is added to EVE that is only accessible through Ambulation. While at the same time I wouldn't want this to make it so that people who are avoiding Ambulation entirely can't participate, there should be real differences in how the interactions take place. These places should be full of exploration & discovery.

For capsuleer explored "dungeons" I can imagine a feel similar to resident evil...

As your ship docks and you leave the gentle glow of your pod behind you, the structure you step onto is decrepit, lighting flickering as you're trying to fix the power grid and access the main computer. The vacuum of space has already swept through the interior leaving frozen corpses along the walls. Who knows what experiment went wrong to result in the deaths of an entire space station...but when you scanned the halls not a single life sign was picked up. You find the engineering bay and industrial facilities horribly mangled. Taking a look over you find a bit of charred metal that could have been the source of the destruction. Somewhere deeper in the complex is a computer that has the schematics that you'll need to begin engineering a module that will succeed where this experiment failed.
Working with everyone to improve New Eden -- Internet Spaceships Iz Serious Business.
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-04-24 04:56:47 UTC
Core gameplay has to involve something more than walking around and spamming emotes at other people walking around. Your core gameplay cannot consists of a few minigames, especially ones that we already have ingame such as EOH poker. Let's be real, no one is going to walk from store to store and spend 2 hrs to fit a BC when you can use the perfectly fine market interface and fit a BC in 2 minutes.

Now I wouldn't be opposed to a war room in which you could use as a fleet setup tool. For example, everyone in your fleet in the same station could be all sitting at a conference table and if you hover your mouse over them and it shows what ship they are flying and what they have in reserve to swap out to.

I'm a bit concerned that you want WIS to be its own game, that is not CCP's vision of WIS at all. The whole point of WIS is to enhance the experience of the rest of EVE (aka flying in spaceships) If WIS does not enhance the rest of EVE then it is a waste of time and money, which has been proven with the disastrous Incarna.
Ai Shun
#29 - 2012-04-24 05:03:28 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
Core gameplay has to involve something more than walking around and spamming emotes at other people walking around. Your core gameplay cannot consists of a few minigames, especially ones that we already have ingame such as EOH poker. Let's be real, no one is going to walk from store to store and spend 2 hrs to fit a BC when you can use the perfectly fine market interface and fit a BC in 2 minutes.


It needs some of the social aspects. But when I see WiS I see the development of planets and their manufacturing base, I see the stations and the services they deliver (Thanks to an earlier poster for that idea). Developing those areas of EVE and putting more of the CCP power into the hands of WiS power (Like creation of blueprints, richer planetary colonies, security status and the impact thereof, CONCORD, etc.) I think there is a lot of options.

The stores were intended as part of the social experience. In other words, not for the module / fitting / ship market but for the clothing, accessory and decorative market. And I never excluded the market itself; because we have that as a useful, established tool. The shops are simply an additional option targeted at the social gamers that want to display their visual creativity.

Hmmm. Dibs on ram-raid with a Rifter ...

Vaal Erit wrote:
I'm a bit concerned that you want WIS to be its own game, that is not CCP's vision of WIS at all. The whole point of WIS is to enhance the experience of the rest of EVE (aka flying in spaceships) If WIS does not enhance the rest of EVE then it is a waste of time and money, which has been proven with the disastrous Incarna.


I frequently feel like I am repeating myself and I guess, to a point, I am.

I want it to have the ability to run separately so that it can be developed by a full-game sized development team (World of Darkness) and be targeted at another market as well. That does not mean that it does not enhance the experience of EVE FiS - it definitely should accomplish that. It was illustrated a few posts above with the different entry points into the system and how an account could be:

(a) EVE FiS without WiS
(b) EVE FiS with WiS
(c) EVE WiS

No matter which one you ran, if you had access from WiS the experience would be the same.
Francisco Bizzaro
#30 - 2012-04-24 07:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Francisco Bizzaro
Katerwaul wrote:
I feel that just like Planetary Interaction, Science & Production, Mining, etc... there should be something that is added to EVE that is only accessible through Ambulation. While at the same time I wouldn't want this to make it so that people who are avoiding Ambulation entirely can't participate, there should be real differences in how the interactions take place. These places should be full of exploration & discovery.

Yeah. Somewhat of a problem in motivating WiS is that pilots don't want to lose efficiency. There would be howls of rage if pilots had to walk down hallways to deal with agents who they currently talk to instantly from the comfort of their pod.

Luckily for WiS proponents, Eve has notoriously crappy interfaces for doing the standard things. So a nasty trick to coerce pilots out of their pods could be to provide better interfaces which are only available by walking to a location. For instance, there are a million features you could add to the market window. So CCP could create a station Market area where an advanced interface is available, where you could do much more analysis, plot trends and statistics, whatever. The current LP store is a UI disaster, and I would walk a mile not to have to deal with it. Etc. So pilots would have all the same interfaces available to them, which is what we've demanded (ship-spinning), but there would be some strong incentives to move around in the station if you want to do some things better.

(And for the station trader who never undocks anyway, hanging around a market area instead of his ship shouldn't be a big disadvantage.)

I'm not suggesting this seriously - there are plenty of reasons to flame this kind of direction if it is followed too literally. But I still think there are ways that hard-core pilots could be weaned out of their ship-spinning ways towards better interfaces in station.

And anyway, if the idea is a separate game that stands on its own feet as this thread suggests, then incentives like this shouldn't be needed.
Katerwaul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-04-24 16:17:01 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Katerwaul wrote:
I feel that just like Planetary Interaction, Science & Production, Mining, etc... there should be something that is added to EVE that is only accessible through Ambulation. While at the same time I wouldn't want this to make it so that people who are avoiding Ambulation entirely can't participate, there should be real differences in how the interactions take place. These places should be full of exploration & discovery.

Yeah. Somewhat of a problem in motivating WiS is that pilots don't want to lose efficiency. There would be howls of rage if pilots had to walk down hallways to deal with agents who they currently talk to instantly from the comfort of their pod.

Luckily for WiS proponents, Eve has notoriously crappy interfaces for doing the standard things. So a nasty trick to coerce pilots out of their pods could be to provide better interfaces which are only available by walking to a location. For instance, there are a million features you could add to the market window. So CCP could create a station Market area where an advanced interface is available, where you could do much more analysis, plot trends and statistics, whatever. The current LP store is a UI disaster, and I would walk a mile not to have to deal with it. Etc. So pilots would have all the same interfaces available to them, which is what we've demanded (ship-spinning), but there would be some strong incentives to move around in the station if you want to do some things better.

(And for the station trader who never undocks anyway, hanging around a market area instead of his ship shouldn't be a big disadvantage.)

I'm not suggesting this seriously - there are plenty of reasons to flame this kind of direction if it is followed too literally. But I still think there are ways that hard-core pilots could be weaned out of their ship-spinning ways towards better interfaces in station.

And anyway, if the idea is a separate game that stands on its own feet as this thread suggests, then incentives like this shouldn't be needed.


First, I don't think this will be established as a stand-alone game. Team Avatar seems to be rather vehement in that regard and CCP has stated that Dust 514 is their first step in making games within the EVE universe that aren't part of EVE directly. That leads me to believe that the only option available for WiS will be to have it as part of EVE.

Second, while there are lots of "parts of eve" that not everyone uses, it does look like WiS will be one of the more Memory Intensive portions. As such making it optional should be considered by Team Avatar. It would give them a solid statistic on how many players are giving Ambulation a chance & help them narrow down their target audience.

Additionally, there should be no "smoothing out UI" components to WiS without relevant reasons. If someone doesn't want to lose efficiency they should Neocomm in to the agent like we currently do. If someone wants a more personal agent experience, they should walk over and talk with them in person. The same could be said of a more intimate interaction with the market or other areas. It shows a certain depth of character outside of the "Capsuleer" stereotype to have one of their kind come to speak with you directly. As such there should be an impact upon the person you're speaking with. I think the best impact would be standings related or the offer for a WiS style mission. It makes sense.

Part of what Team Avatar has done is helping to improve the UI overall, and I hope they continue to do so -- but I wouldn't want to see UI used as a gimmick to force people into WiS.
Working with everyone to improve New Eden -- Internet Spaceships Iz Serious Business.
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-04-25 02:56:52 UTC
Ai Shun, I really like the idea.

Curious on a few counts, though

Would there be some form of PvP outside of market pvp?

If not, would you be comfortable with the entirety of Eve manufacturing being (slowly) relegated to the EveWIS game, with appropriate skill rewards/incentives to people who formerly trained manufacturing skills (Or perhaps the option to roll their manufacturing character into the EveWIS, with appropriate rewards/incentives for any non-manufacturing skills they might have had) --- obviously a highly touchy question, but just curious.

Hello, hello again.

Francisco Bizzaro
#33 - 2012-04-25 07:57:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Francisco Bizzaro
Katerwaul wrote:
First, I don't think this will be established as a stand-alone game.

Neither do I. But that's the subject of this thread. And establishing it as an extra game does have some advantages in terms of providing a funding model and work-force to carry out the needed development, as outlined in the OP. The TL;DR I get from the original suggestion is: "Drop WoD and replace it with an Eve station game."

This doesn't seem to be what CCP are going to do, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. With a skeleton crew, WiS will develop at a glacial pace. Any attempt to increase the number of devs will be met with rage from FiS players, and somewhat justifiably so given the track record of WiS development. Look at the latest CSM minutes to read the attitude and the many assurances they extracted from CCP that there is no priority in this direction.

(There are still reasons why a stand-alone game may be a "bad idea", mostly business related, having to do with over-saturating the Eve IP, cannibalizing the existing game, and convincing the venture capitalists who hold the purse strings to sell off WoD ... but there are counter-arguments to these as well.)

Maybe with a new direction and focus the Team Avatar, or whatever they're called, can pull a rabbit out of a hat and win back players' hearts and minds. But - no fault to them - that will be a pretty big job. If you want WiS to develop at a pace where you actually see gameplay within your lifetime, you have to ask where is the money going to come from and who's going to do the work? Answering those questions in a way that doesn't p**s off existing players is difficult.

Quote:
Part of what Team Avatar has done is helping to improve the UI overall, and I hope they continue to do so -- but I wouldn't want to see UI used as a gimmick to force people into WiS.

That's why I put the caveats at the end of my post. Something like this would have a high likelihood of making FiS players feel like second-class citizens if it weren't handled carefully. The motivation for getting out of the pod should come from compelling original gameplay, rather than interface development which is "held back" from the FiS game.
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#34 - 2012-04-26 00:51:35 UTC
A good post. Cheers.

Months before incarna i was very excited, btween dust and wis it seemed like eve was ushering a new age in MMPORG.

But then they ****** everything and i unsubbed.

If only they could do it right...
Ai Shun
#35 - 2012-04-26 00:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ai Shun
Degren wrote:
Ai Shun, I really like the idea.


Thank you.

Degren wrote:
Would there be some form of PvP outside of market pvp?


I think the game should have the same approach to competitive gameplay that EVE FiS has and that Dust 514 will have. It will have to have some safer environments, as Stations / Planets do not have the same vast, open emptiness that space has. There will be more security in a contained environment. Of course that would likely depend on the nature of the environment, because a smugglers' colony will be more dangerous than a Caldari city.

How to handle that though I do not know. It can't be too much like a FPS as that is the province of Dust 514, but you also don't want it be meaningless and boring.

Degren wrote:
If not, would you be comfortable with the entirety of Eve manufacturing being (slowly) relegated to the EveWIS game, with appropriate skill rewards/incentives to people who formerly trained manufacturing skills (Or perhaps the option to roll their manufacturing character into the EveWIS, with appropriate rewards/incentives for any non-manufacturing skills they might have had) --- obviously a highly touchy question, but just curious.


No, because part of this is to leave FiS as untouched as humanly possible. No functionality can be removed, even if a WiS alternative is presented.

Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
This doesn't seem to be what CCP are going to do, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. With a skeleton crew, WiS will develop at a glacial pace. Any attempt to increase the number of devs will be met with rage from FiS players, and somewhat justifiably so given the track record of WiS development. Look at the latest CSM minutes to read the attitude and the many assurances they extracted from CCP that there is no priority in this direction.


Thank you for that eloquent summary of what I've spent pages describing P
Aren Valle
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-04-27 04:24:32 UTC
I agree with a good bit of what you are saying, but the idea of doing away with the WoD team is rather ridiculous. The WoD team are the ones that are developing all the Carbon mechanics that you want to utilize. Let them get their framework in place and get Carbon working properly. Everything that has been talked/dreamed/whined about for WiS is secondary to the core Carbon engine development.

Once all the mechanics for Carbon have been put in place and test stable, then and only then can you add the window dressing of the environment.

First rule of programming: Make it work, then make it pretty.
Ai Shun
#37 - 2012-04-27 04:49:14 UTC
Aren Valle wrote:
I agree with a good bit of what you are saying, but the idea of doing away with the WoD team is rather ridiculous. The WoD team are the ones that are developing all the Carbon mechanics that you want to utilize. Let them get their framework in place and get Carbon working properly. Everything that has been talked/dreamed/whined about for WiS is secondary to the core Carbon engine development.


Why not develop Carbon in the EVE Universe, instead of for a different game?
Lost True
Perkone
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-05-09 11:00:29 UTC
That's a lot of interesting ideas.

Didn't read them all yet...

in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much?

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#39 - 2012-05-11 23:48:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:

to Ai Shun there is no need for WIS to be separate ,maybe working on a second server cluster ,yes.
A lot of people want WIS to be meaningful ,if you make WIS meaningful to EVE ,there is no use to make WIS a seperate game.
WIS would be part of EVE as the spaceships are.
If WIS only is used to be a social aspect of the game ,then its only an addon ,so its not needed to make a game of it


This. I see no need for eve to be separate for WiS. (I do see a need for Trolls to be separate from eve, but that's more of a personal preference.)


And, frankly, I think we need to take some functionality away from FiS if we're going to keep having an eve to play in. Market in particular.
asneakyfatcat inurtrashcan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-05-23 20:46:20 UTC
I'm liking your ideas here. EVE can get pretty boring at times so some twitch based gameplay would be great, especially now that DUST soldiers are fast approaching completion in all 4 races within the game lore, and will be live once DUST 514 comes out, so capsuleers could soon be safe outside of their pods. This also means that, by the templar 1/DUST lore, when you die exploring some hostile station you would be able to respawn right back at your ship docked outside. unlike when your ship is destroyed, your body is vaporized so you loose skillpoints during the snapshot, DUST soldiers have alot more time to send over the info. But idk about owning bars and shops, that doesn't fit what a capsuleer should be doing. Remember that 100,000 isk is an extremely large amount of money to the common folk in the EVE universe, and yet we capsuleers can make the in under a minute.
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