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CCP: We DESPERATELY need a buff for the Hulk
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Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#1 - 2012-04-18 10:25:40 UTC
CCP, we need your help!

Apart from the speculation on the market right now, there is a real problem emerging in the mineral market.

A lot of the current problem is probably due to banning so many mining and drone ratting bots without thinking through how the gap was going to be closed..... and while I don't want the bots back, the EVE economy needs a decent over-supply of minerals (and especially the low-end ones) to keep inflation in check.

And for that we're going to need mining ships that are (a) more efficient and (b) harder to kill

Or in other words, the Hulk needs a buff.

a) If a miner has to pay almost 300mil isk for a hulk and then whatever more to fit it for high-sec mining then that's a big investment and you want some way to keep it alive so some griefing clown in a 2 mil isk catalyst can't come around and pop it for ***** and giggles. The hulk is supposed to be the "king" of mining ships. So give the damned thing enough grid to fit a "kingly" tank! Sure, it should still be possible to suicide gank it, but not with completely uncoordinated "drive by shootings" from low-skill characters in exceedingly cheaply fit ships.

b) The Hulk is only something like 10% more efficient than the Covetor.... even though it costs something like 10 times more to buy. That's just wrong for the most efficient mining ship in the game. What the hulk *should* be is like having two Covetors. Sure it will mean that miners mine a lot more but we need that to keep mineral prices balanced. My proposal would be to simply allow the hulk to fit 5 or 6 strip miners. Miners will love you for it. Prices of minerals will drop but with more efficient ships the miners will still make more isk than they can today.

HELP! You can't just let the mineral markets spin out of control. Ban all the bots, but give us a PROPER way to close the gap!
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#2 - 2012-04-18 10:34:41 UTC
Stay always aligned and warp out when clown in 2 mil cata starts locking you.

Of course that would require you to actually pay attention to your surroundings so CCP really needs to do some work and make your shiny hulkies invincible...

Invalid signature format
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2012-04-18 10:41:56 UTC
1) It's a mining barge. It isn't built for a combat environment, so it can't stand up to military hardware. It is entirely possible to fit a tank to it that will stop catalysts too, try it and see how many hilarious killmails you can collect.

2) T2 ships are all about paying a lot for a tiny bit more. So are T2 modules.

3) If you increase the amount a hulk can mine, you'll burst the mineral bubble. Double it and you'll have 3 isk trit again, not 6. You'll have to mine just as much to make the same amount of money you would now.

The hulk is fine. It's not going to gain more mining amount, it's not going to gain more fitting. Stay aligned, fit some tank and warp out when the destroyers warp into your belt, and you'll be fine. That or find a grav site, wormhole etc.
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#4 - 2012-04-18 11:38:13 UTC
Quote:
My proposal would be to simply allow the hulk to fit 5 or 6 strip miners.

Stealth buff to the PvP Hulk

Also in response: NO, if you want to protect your Hulk how about you dont set the lasers on your favorite variety of asteriod then go and watch TV. It doesnt need a 'kingly' tank, because its not a combat ship. You can easily get 20k EHP which would stop most unorganised Catalyst ganks on you.

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#5 - 2012-04-18 12:54:07 UTC
Actually, with a doubling of actual mining needed and the crackdown on bots some sort of mining buff *is* needed, but making it specific to the Hulk would be a bad idea as that puts too much of an emphasis on one ship.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Velicitia
XS Tech
#6 - 2012-04-18 13:13:02 UTC
Here's the best mining buff they can add ...

...


...


...


...


BLUE UP THE ******* LOCALS AND GET INTEL GOING ON KNOWN GANKERS.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#7 - 2012-04-18 13:35:24 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
CCP, we need your help!

Apart from the speculation on the market right now, there is a real problem emerging in the mineral market.

A lot of the current problem is probably due to banning so many mining and drone ratting bots without thinking through how the gap was going to be closed..... and while I don't want the bots back, the EVE economy needs a decent over-supply of minerals (and especially the low-end ones) to keep inflation in check.

And for that we're going to need mining ships that are (a) more efficient and (b) harder to kill

Or in other words, the Hulk needs a buff.

a) If a miner has to pay almost 300mil isk for a hulk and then whatever more to fit it for high-sec mining then that's a big investment and you want some way to keep it alive so some griefing clown in a 2 mil isk catalyst can't come around and pop it for ***** and giggles. The hulk is supposed to be the "king" of mining ships. So give the damned thing enough grid to fit a "kingly" tank! Sure, it should still be possible to suicide gank it, but not with completely uncoordinated "drive by shootings" from low-skill characters in exceedingly cheaply fit ships.

b) The Hulk is only something like 10% more efficient than the Covetor.... even though it costs something like 10 times more to buy. That's just wrong for the most efficient mining ship in the game. What the hulk *should* be is like having two Covetors. Sure it will mean that miners mine a lot more but we need that to keep mineral prices balanced. My proposal would be to simply allow the hulk to fit 5 or 6 strip miners. Miners will love you for it. Prices of minerals will drop but with more efficient ships the miners will still make more isk than they can today.

HELP! You can't just let the mineral markets spin out of control. Ban all the bots, but give us a PROPER way to close the gap!


Inflation is not a problem. At all. No matter how much inflation occurs, it still takes exactly the same amount of time to mine up a new hurricane. It is also very good for miners, as now you can afford more things that are not mineral based, because you get paid more for minerals.

The hulk can reach 30k solo tanked. That is enough to not reliably pop to 2 catalysts in highsec. Miners are not exempt from training shield management, the individual shield comp skills and capacitor skills to keep the mids free. Being soloed by a cat is just bad play. DCUs do fit on hulks.

Also I've been mining frequently of late, and people do not gank my alts hulk. this is due to location. ie with 4 people in local, all of whom I recognise, merely keeping an eye on local suffices to give me ample warning to safe, and much better warning than d-scan spam.
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-04-18 13:44:18 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
CCP, we need your help!

Apart from the speculation on the market right now, there is a real problem emerging in the mineral market.

A lot of the current problem is probably due to banning so many mining and drone ratting bots without thinking through how the gap was going to be closed..... and while I don't want the bots back, the EVE economy needs a decent over-supply of minerals (and especially the low-end ones) to keep inflation in check.

And for that we're going to need mining ships that are (a) more efficient and (b) harder to kill


Not supported. Price rise makes an uncompetitive occupation competitive.

We do need more survivable platforms, but not for this reason
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#9 - 2012-04-18 14:01:56 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
. You can easily get 20k EHP which would stop most unorganised Catalyst ganks on you.


I'd like to see your 20k fit because I'm not getting that even with perfect skills. Maybe you have a better fit than I do.... Don't forget, it's a mining ship so it needs to be cap stable. Nevertheless you do have a good point, which is that most people fit their Hulks for maximum mining capability and forget that the world is harsh and they should also tank it.

I knew this wasn't going to be an easy sell because there is a lot of miner-hate out there. Simple sounding things like "blue up everyone" and "warp out all the time" aren't viable in much of high-sec..... well... I suppose "warp out all the time" would be but not if you actually planned on doing any mining....

And none of those suggestions solve the main problem, which is that now that CCP is swinging the ban-hammer for real a LOT more mining has to be done in order to keep the economy stable. It's my personal belief that we should pin our hopes on getting people back into their mining ships in high-sec and that's only going to be possible if they have better ships.

Bubanni
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-04-18 14:16:50 UTC
:3 main reason prices are up so much is because of market speculation

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#11 - 2012-04-18 14:18:40 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:

And none of those suggestions solve the main problem, which is that now that CCP is swinging the ban-hammer for real a LOT more mining has to be done in order to keep the economy stable. It's my personal belief that we should pin our hopes on getting people back into their mining ships in high-sec and that's only going to be possible if they have better ships.


It takes certain type of mentality to play Eve with mining as a main activity. Personally I don't have any hostile feelings against miners but I don't think you would see any kind of serious boost in miner numbers even if hulks were 10 times more tanky. Shooting rocks is boring and it needs a serious buff in regards of gameplay and challenge maybe sth in lines of exploration with probing and finding good sites to mine. Paying for account to be AFK most of the time and getting excited over wallet getting fatter and fatter seems kinda fail.

Invalid signature format
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#12 - 2012-04-18 14:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
ACE McFACE wrote:
. You can easily get 20k EHP which would stop most unorganised Catalyst ganks on you.


I'd like to see your 20k fit because I'm not getting that even with perfect skills. Maybe you have a better fit than I do.... Don't forget, it's a mining ship so it needs to be cap stable. Nevertheless you do have a good point, which is that most people fit their Hulks for maximum mining capability and forget that the world is harsh and they should also tank it.

I knew this wasn't going to be an easy sell because there is a lot of miner-hate out there. Simple sounding things like "blue up everyone" and "warp out all the time" aren't viable in much of high-sec..... well... I suppose "warp out all the time" would be but not if you actually planned on doing any mining....

And none of those suggestions solve the main problem, which is that now that CCP is swinging the ban-hammer for real a LOT more mining has to be done in order to keep the economy stable. It's my personal belief that we should pin our hopes on getting people back into their mining ships in high-sec and that's only going to be possible if they have better ships.



[Hulk, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II
Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Hedbergite Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Hedbergite Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Hedbergite Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Cap stable for my alt. Will need 3% grid implant, which is trivial compared to the hull cost.


As I said, from a miners perspective, there is absolutely no need for mineral prices to be low or stable - CCP has no intention of holding prices down to where they used to be at all, and it does no harm whatsoever for the game to have higher object prices.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-04-18 14:28:45 UTC
CC doesn't care about it, for CCP hulk is balanced because you don't need ships to mine or make isk.

You can buy cheap tags reprocess/sell = isk

You can kill rogue drones reprocess/sell = isk

You can reprocess mods with 0 skills = isk

You can buy plex = isk



And buy ships to kill Hulks.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#14 - 2012-04-18 14:38:27 UTC
Often seen wrote:
So, taking balance into consideration, (by not improving the hulk's current chances of survival), I am to understand nothing in the last 5 years has made PvP ships better able to pop open that pinata...

Clearly these people who keep dying to low end ships are doing something terribly wrong.


I actually believe both the above to be partially true, observing the presumption of safety is present more than it should be.

Why? Is it because people suddenly became foolish?

Not exactly. The thing I believe we are seeing is the attitude towards ganking in high sec is far more accepted than many miners accept or understand.
The risk for ganking is not enough to deter them, and if CCP is happy with that, then it is up to the miners to compensate.

Life is not fair, and the expectation that realistic gameplay will be fair, fails the test of realism.

Fit a tank, or convince CCP to shift the balance point. Those are your only options.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Velicitia
XS Tech
#15 - 2012-04-18 15:28:40 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
ACE McFACE wrote:
. You can easily get 20k EHP which would stop most unorganised Catalyst ganks on you.


I'd like to see your 20k fit because I'm not getting that even with perfect skills. Maybe you have a better fit than I do.... Don't forget, it's a mining ship so it needs to be cap stable. Nevertheless you do have a good point, which is that most people fit their Hulks for maximum mining capability and forget that the world is harsh and they should also tank it.


(shown in a post above)
Also, other implants, fleet boosters, etc will help.

Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
I knew this wasn't going to be an easy sell because there is a lot of miner-hate out there. Simple sounding things like "blue up everyone" and "warp out all the time" aren't viable in much of high-sec..... well... I suppose "warp out all the time" would be but not if you actually planned on doing any mining....


Funny, because once we started working WITH the other locals and semi-actively tracking the bad guys, "easy" kills for them went away and they moved on. Sure, there are always people who want to **** in your cereal, but with 3-4 systems of indy/mining pilots tracking your movements ...

The other nice thing was you didn't have the same idea of "well, they aren't red, so they must be OK" after a few days/weeks.

Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
And none of those suggestions solve the main problem, which is that now that CCP is swinging the ban-hammer for real a LOT more mining has to be done in order to keep the economy stable. It's my personal belief that we should pin our hopes on getting people back into their mining ships in high-sec and that's only going to be possible if they have better ships.


Why is this a bad thing? I mean, seriously you're practically in at the ground floor with these changes. The PvP guys are at the mercy of the markets / miners now...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-04-18 15:44:50 UTC
The best tank to fit on a Hulk is to move it out of high sec.
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-04-18 16:43:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr
the argument should read,

Mining is hard, dangerous work, even without pirates and ruffians out for an easy score. Ships designed for dangerous work should be built like they intend to go into dangerous area's. Shields? meh, too unreliable. Armor? meh, too cumbersome. Hull, hardened to hell and back just to survive the mining operation. Lets see what we can do to harden the hell out of the hull.


Proposal, CCP, add more mid and low slot Hull tanking modules. what do we have now? 3 options, DCU, reinforced bulkheads, a local hull repper, and some implants that give a negligible hull tank. lets buff the exhumers with a serious base hull upgrade.

1. buff the base hull HP by a factor of 10-15

2. shift the default resists to the hull.

3. give a % increase to hull HP per level. ( these boys need to hold out a long time in hostile area's, that requires more stamina than boost)

4. slow the alignment of these ships down and the same with acceleration, but increase the top speed. (after all, all that hull is slow, but the massive engines needed will get moving eventually, think freight train ) (got to have a trade off for the upgrade.

these changes will allow for better survivability, but still give the risk of a larger coordinated attack to still reach its goal.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-04-18 18:31:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Aqriue
Danika Princip wrote:
1) It's a mining barge. It isn't built for a combat environment, so it can't stand up to military hardware.

Want to point out, freighter and JF are asking for you attention to point out themselves that their hitpoint buffer exceeds battleships with mods....WHILE not equiping mods. Catalyst with hybrid buff and its older half step brother Tier 3 battlecruiser fitting large guns want to point out that damage has increased while the hull sized has decreased. Hulk and Mack are also asking to point out...37.5% shield resist bonus to 1899 and 1469 base shields is a joke while having just 2 lows to make up the bulk of a structure tank which no sane person wants to be the first and final barrier.

But if you want to again say fit tank mods...

Titans are asking to get a reverse vasectomy, since its not the Titan's fault their guns are able to track ships with tracking mods but your inabilty to fly something with a larger tank (ya know, like the inability of a miner to fit a proper tank). Titan is asking that if you, the player saying to fit tank mods, should then step up out of your crappy battleship fleet and step up into a cap ship to defeat it. See, logic says that it tank mods are to hulks then a cap ship with a bigger buffer are a counter to Titans and you won't get blapped by XL guns with a thicker tank. CCP, please un-nerf super caps and bring back their kick ass glory! *runs off to get some popcorn*

Only thing hulk (and mack) could use, is to decrease the structure down 1000 and raise the shields by about 2000. Valid enough barrier to counter the evolution of large guns and their damage, enough to decrease the likely gank of a few catalyst instead of half a dozen or more, and certainly a large enough barrier to survive longer in null. BTW, if a ship not fit for combat can't have a higher barrier that dies so much then certainly a valid reason that all non combat ships including the beloved freighters and JF need a massive reduction in hitpoints to....about 20k and 30k respectively. Hehe, enjoy the death of the cargo vessels.
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
#19 - 2012-04-18 20:41:59 UTC
I don't see a problem. Hulk vulnerabilities mean less ore gets mined, which means ore prices go up. Eventually, you'll be able to mine the same value (not amount) of ore in a decent mining battleship or even mining cruiser as you used to require a hulk for.

The choice to gank hulks is just going to push PVP towards more T1 cruiser/frigate action, and that's not a bad place. I look forward to it, to the time when T1 cruisers cost 30 million. So I've started ganking hulks as my contribution to it.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-04-18 20:47:29 UTC
Degnar Oskold wrote:
The choice to gank hulks is just going to push PVP towards more T1 cruiser/frigate action, and that's not a bad place. I look forward to it, to the time when T1 cruisers cost 30 million. So I've started ganking hulks as my contribution to it.

Why stop there? I was looking forward to 30 million isk frigates and I don't mean faction. And nerf bounty payouts to 95% of its current value everywhere! **** yeah, this game will get more risk adverse when you can't afford to replace that **** fit rifter Twisted
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