Assembly Hall

Hi There

I have read through the proposal and I like the idea. I think it gives so variation to PvP and has the posibility to create some new and varied tactics

I think the idea could work with a Glass Cannon concept. Have each class of ships (cruiser, battleship etc) have a Glass Cannon varient (alot like teh Teir 3 BCs). A fleet could have a number of these ships that would be capable of dealing high Alpha strikes, but would need protection from Alph strikes in turn. So they would naterually be matched with an Ageis Destroyer.

Also another idea, (and this may only work if the the destroyer negated a percentage of all damage) is that the protection extends both ways. ie the ship being protected also suffers a reduction in DPS. This would introduce timing to fleet battles.

For example
"Fleet target BattleShip X
Ageis, drop wall in three, two , one, mark
Fire all weapons
raise wall, repeat raise wall"

meanwhile when the opposing team sees a strike happening, they have a few seconds to drop their own wall and conterstrike, before the ageis cruisers raise the protection again. Assuming they are paying attention and have targets set.

This could also lead to tactics like firing through your shield in the hope of tricking the opposing side to lower their shields for an ineffectual counter strike.

Just some random thoughts

Dafydd

Perhaps some remote TD making target hard to hit? Or a reverse target painter lowering sig of target? (with stacking penalties ofc.)

You could have the new destroyers supporting larger ships by reducing incoming fire, and the modules would essentially just be remote versions of stuff that already exists. (you can call the modules AA and make them run on ammo, with suitable puffpuff animations if you wish :p )

They would essentially be equals of logistics, except preventing the damage upfront instead of healing it after, in addition Destroyer hulls are much more easy to alpha than cruisers.

You could also have them mount Defender Missiles, but instead of shooting down the missiles of their target they defend their target from incoming hostile missile fire.

Any recommendations for ship names? The name "Aegis" itself would seem to fit Gallente (they have Myrmidons, Ares, Keres... etc.), though calling the Gallente ship an Athena-class Destroyer just sounds better. So let's start there:

• Gallente: Athena class
• Minmatar: Mattock class (fits with the weapon naming, as opposed to weather, dogs, or the occa)
• Amarr: Penitent class (religious theme)
• Caldari: Djinn class (mythical creature like the Basilisk)

I personally haven't. I don't even think i can use them. One question I do have about them is, is there a difference in effectiveness between grouped and ungrouped launchers. I ask this because when you group your missile launchers the server considers them as one big missile for movement and I think damage.

That's correct, although an Aegis destroyer should be able to fit several of these defensive modules. Each module is also only effective for one kind of incoming fire. That does a couple of things to limit their power:

Sudden Attacks
In the hi-sec gank protection detail scenario, you'd fit the ships such that they had at least one of each kind of module, possibly two of each kind if we assume all 8 high slots. This means that the defenders are ready for any kind of damage that may show up, but they need to be on the ball to use the correct defensive measure for the attackers who show up. They could spam all 8 modules on the intended friendly, but the ganker simply needs to wait for them to cap out.

The appropriate response if the attacker doesn't immediately fire, is for the Athena pilot (for example) to examine the attackers to see what weapons they're actually using. Defense is by weapon type, as opposed to hardened by damage type. This means a visual examination of the attacker, or fitting a combat scanner would do the trick. The Athena pilot activates all modules at first, then figures they only need the anti-projectile modules on.

The gank could still be possible by a crew bringing a mixed bag of weapon types to the party.

Skirmish with Intel
Scouts report on the enemy fleet composition, or spies do, and notify your fleet that the enemy is running a Hellcat fleet. You order your Djinn pilots to be ready with their Coherence Disruptors (anti-laser). What you don't know is that an enemy reserve fleet is bringing Gallente ships running blasters for point-blank attack (which is very difficult for Aegis destroyers to handle given the range and interposition requirements).

Preparation gives the defender the advantage. Operational security and surprise levels the playing field.

---

To sum up, there are lots of ways, given the suggested mechanics, that Aegis destroyers are prevented from becoming overpowered. New fitting, intel, and piloting doctrines would be needed: Aegis hunting with interceptors, new blaster-boat doctrine, maneuver tactics, cap and ecm warfare against Aegis destroyers, logistics and active defense boosting. Better, most of these activities should be accessible within the first few months of training for new characters.

For PvE content, bring the Sansha/Sleeper AI to L4 missions. They would still be in hi-sec, but they could be tougher to solo. Take your tanked battleship, but bring (or hire) two buddies flying Mattocks or Penitents. You're going to need them.

Well, the simple way that could work (perpahs):

- A tech 2 destroyer with special ability of -99% CPU use for an Aegis module

- 4 types of Aegis modules depending on weapon types:
- optical distortion for laser fire
- magnetic distortion for particle accelerators
- gravitational distortion for projectile fire
- anti-missile system based on either projectiles, beams or missiles (or whatever else).

- Aegis module is activated on a friendlie, adds negation to incoming damage based on a formula:
- damage_taken = damage_given * (1 - (base_% * skill_modifier * range_modifier)).
- skill_modifier is calculated based on relevant skills and is something like 1 + skill_bonus * skill_level
- range_modifier is 1 for anything within the optimal range, and 1 - falloff_% between optimal range and falloff range
- if there are several modules activated on a friendly ship, the best protection applies, others are ignored (since if the best one can't intercept the projectile/missile/whateve, others cannot as well).

- if this is not optimal, it can be chance-based instead of damage reduction-based. Then:
- chance_to_deflect = base_% * skill_modifier * range_modifier

- in fact, both %-based and chance-based modules can be made available.

- modules use ammo when protected target receives fire
- no calculations of 3d positioning are ever made
- modules are extremely short range, like in "5km range, 10km falloff"
- modules occupy high slots
- under no circumstance can they deflect more than 33% damage or with a chance higher than 50% (chance-based reduce more total dps, but doesn't protect against alpha that well, numbers taken from the sky - could be any other cap value).

- rigs (or subsystems?) are used heavily to make modules effective, and rigs support only one type of projectile protection, meaning you can't have omni-protection on one dessie (modules that are not supported by rigs/subsystems are almost ineffective - say, 5% dps reduction)

- modules have a certain projectile/beam/whatever else class size they are optimized against and are half as effecient against 1 size difference and ineffective against more than 1 size difference.

- destroyers are immobile/with significantly reduced speed when modules are active


So, what actually happens in battle:

- Dessies are deployed near key targets, and are unable to move as fast as their targets
- Fleet is better protected but immobile and flankable
- Dessies themselves are still vulnerable to high alpha BS cannons/missile strikes, because they have no speed bonus
- Either enemy tries to overwhelm the wall, tries to flank, or requests reinforcements with a different damage type (or just continues to hammer till dessies run out of ammo for Aegis modules)
- For example, Aegis module designed against BS hybrids and supported by necessary rig/subsystem works full force against large hybrids, half force against cruiser hybrids, and is useless against frig hybrids, as well as against any other weapons, that is, missiles, cannons, lasers of any size.


How calculations work:

Ship A fires at ship B
Ship B is protected by Aegis module
Standard damage is calculated
Damage reduction or chance of deflection is known
Damage is reduced (if a % modifier applies), or deflected (if there is a chance and RND gives appropriate results)
Whatever is left of damage is applied normally
Defending dessie expends some ammo
Almost no extra load on the server, especially considering that in case of grouped weapons they still are calculated separately, as far as I know.


Another edit - about the idea of making it harder for the protected ship to fire properly:

- Since the protection module has a certain ammo it is designed to intercept, it will give a penalty to damage from protected ship based on it's type, and the penalty is half of its interception power.
- Lore can be adjusted to "since it's hard to differentiate between 'friendly' and enemy projectiles when they are fired in such a short time as to be able to react to them, modules degrade performance of friendly guns as well. Now, obviously, an anti-laser Aegis module will not affect any non-laser guns on the protected target as well. This will actually encourage the use of different weapon types between warring parties.
- Since it gives penalties, it has to be used only on fleet members (lore could justify it saying that you need input from the protected ship to know whom to protect against, and this info is not shared outside the fleet). This will prevent Aegis modules from being used for harassment of neutrals and purposeful dps reduction of the firing ship of choice.

Well, actually, the whole fleet restriction was there to accomodate for inclusion of penalties. If no penalties are needed, then away goes the restriction. However, using Aegis modules in hisec should flag the defending destroyer the instant it attempts to intercept incoming fire, making it a valid target for the attacker:

- Battleship Alice is defended by destroyer Bob, Bob's Aegis module activated on Alice and idle.
- Enemy battleship Chris appears. It has a wardec on Alice, but not Bob.
- Chris targets Alice. Nothing happens.
- Chris fires at Alice.
- Aegis module on Bob is triggered because Alice is under fire, attempting to deflect the attack from Chris.
- Whether any real damage reduction happens or not, Bob is now flagged towards Chris and can be attacked legally.

Hovever, this in no way prevents Concord coming for Chris should he do something like that without a wardec on Alice.


As for tactical maneuvering, since destroyers have very slow speed when modules are activated, you can't effectively defend all the ships in your fleet (unless you have as many Aegis destroyers as needed to cover all other ships in your fleet, which is quite a lot, considering you won't fit more than 3 Aegis modules on one destroyer, and even that sacrificing all tank). So, if you cover those ships that are facing the opponent, he might have the option to try to flank the front tankers and attack the rear snipers which are now unprotected.

In any case, the main use I see for such ships is protection against alpha and short-duration incoming dps reduction to key targets in small to medium scenarios. They are certainly not meant for sustained protection. Maybe some larger vessel could be used in bigger fleet fights, because, frankly, no matter what number you place next to 'Tech', a T2 or T3 destroyer is still a destroyer, and with modules active it's not even speed-tanked. Means it will live only as long as the locking time on that enemy sniper goes.

Another edit:
Your idea that going up close and personal is a way to negate Aegis defence has merit, but, IMO, it creates a loophole - blaster boats are already very strong at close range (seen examples when blaster cruiser almost killed a heavily tanked BC). So, while according to Earth Lore (tm) it is logical, in EvE it could create another imbalance towards close range PvP (which, as you can guess, means no formations... again).

Still, it's your thread and your original idea, so I won't fight over it

The thing that troubles me with all this is the fact that in large fleets when primaries are called, Aegis boats are going to be first concentrated alpha targets, and won't last long. Now, there is nothing wrong with the idea of cheap expendable ships, but when it comes to the sentiment that new players would wish to contribute to fleet warfare by flying this more eagerly rather than tackle rifters or some other cliche throwaways, I'd think it makes no difference to a new player. After all, flying something that is DESTINED to die first is no fun, especially when you don't have any reasonable chance of getting a KM yourself. On the other hand, if you let them withstand sustained damage from a large fleet, it means giving them a tank more befitting a dread rather than a dessie, so it doesn't quite work.

So the problem I see is with scaling - adding more Aegis boats at some point stops giving any more benefits, while adding damage boats generally scales quite well. Therefore at a certain size of fleets, Aegis boats would be owerwhelmed to a point when having them is less useful than just fielding more plain DPS, AND they are too frail to last long, which, again, reduces their usefulness in large scale combat even more.

If we find a solution to that, we will get a though-out game mechanic that can be proposed to CCP. If not, Aegis boats remain useful only in preemptive asset protection, such as hisec mining ops or cargo runs, which could be nice for every miner or hauler, but that is not something most EvE players would want to fly (more likely just put an alt and press a couple buttons, then alt+tab), I think.

About how those modules could work (according to lore).

I'm thinking more in line with Russian plasma tech that is used to deflect a flying round by altering air friction within atmosphere, rather than something that is designed to destroy it. Makes little sense to try to hit something as small as a shell at extreme speeds to me, while creating something with area effect in its path is much simpler.

So, in space, you could use ammo that creates a temporary field (area, whatever else) in the way of incoming shot with something that acts like resistance differential does in atmosphere (for instance, gravitational pull that provides the shot with acceleration sideways), thus making this shot move somewhat off-target.

For example, a microsecond lifetime gravitational field could be formed next to the path of a minmatar shell (which is in a state of matter), and the shell receives acceleration towards that grav field while passing by, altering its course. EM field could be used against charged projectiles like hybrid shots. Laser beam is countered by deploying some form of chaff (cheap and effective, Minmatar style), and missiles, well, this is one case when point defence lasers have valid application.

According to lore, makes perfect sense that both Caldari and Gallente would think about hybrids first, and, also, knowing that espionage is rampant in New Eden, there is no reason why Gallente couldn't steal some laser tech from Amarr (they might not even need to steal anything, as mining lasers are common, and ORE is Gallentean) to defend against Caldari missiles. Amarrwould naturally adapt lasers against Minmatar missiles, and, perhaps, order some grav research in Caldari to deal with shells. Minmatar, of course, are concerned with laser fire, and, as always, the cheaper it is to make and maintain, the simpler the principles, the better, so chaff comes to life (again).

Charges contain the means to deploy these miniature obstacles for the incoming shells. Naturally, no real fields are launched in game, it's just a visual effect on the client. Calculations are performed as shown in my post above, and charges are expended).

Now, one thing I could imagine as useful in large scale battle, is using Aegis platforms in Anti-Drone warfare. While some people said here that drones should be excluded, I think that good old flak screen is quite viable against those pesky Fighters and Fighter-Bombers, making carriers a bit less OP - you'd have to actually remove enemy's SAM capability before having a go at bombing them. Plus, this could be an AOE effect with modules dealing automatic damage to anything within range (smartbomb style, with a chance to hit based on drone signature and speed, and working only on drones). Again, short duration due to loads of ammo expended while operating.

This would provide two distinct roles to Aegis boats - in short/medium warfare you have your anti-alpha and damage reduction boat, while in large scale PvP you have a mobile anti-drone platform that can cover areas around key targets and needs to go boom before Fighters or Fighter-Bombers can be deployed. In that case it is even closer to its real life counterpart, as a versatile protection platform that is still very vulnerable to direct attacks, but is good at guarding others.

I like that idea, a sort of drone disruption smart bomb. How about it having a small chance to disconnect the drone?