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Is it just the kestrel and caracal or all caldari ships?

Author
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#21 - 2012-04-17 07:50:39 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
As someone who started with armor tanking and moved to shields I can maybe explain something where others are not.

For starters, shields are WAY more skill intensive and specialized than armor.

With armor you only have to focus on 4 [types] of skills:
- Hull Upgrades (for that Damage Control)
- Mechanics (for that extra armor HP)
- 4 armor compensation skills (for better passive resistances)
- Repairs Systems (to reduce the time it takes for your local repper to cycle)

With shield you have to focus on:
- Hull Upgrades (for that Damage Control)
- Shield Management (for that extra shield HP)
- Shield Operation (for better shield recharge rate)
- 4 shield compensation skills (for better passive resistances)**
- Tactical Shield Manipulation (for access to active shield hardeners)
- Shield Compensation (for lower shield booster consumption)

**The 4 compensation skills can be largely ignored unless you are gunning for a particular fit that needs them.

Things to know and understand about shields:
- Shield boosters operate in a manner that is almost opposite from armor reppers. They cycle VERY fast and use a lot of capacitor. Thus, making a "cap stable" active shield tank is not really possible without severely gimping the ship overall (exceptions apply).
- Shields in general have less HP than armor, but they regenerate with time (in a manner almost exactly like the capacitor).
- Boosting your shield's raw HP will also increase your shield's regeneration ability... which adds to your overall tank.
- With the above in mind, some ships can be fitted to maximize the shield regeneration rate to effectively BE the tank. Doing this often comes with a heavy price as you may severely gimp your capacitor's ability to recharge.
- Shields do not have access to passive omni-resist mods like armor does... but it can use an active omni-resist hardeners that you can overheat and gain more resistances out of when you are in a pickle.
- Shields may not slow you down the way armor does, but it does increase your signature radius making you easier to probe down, target, and hit.
- Your options with rigs are a bit different. Safeguards will lower shield booster cap consumption while Purgers will increase passive recharge. Never mix or confuse the two.


With regards to Caldari ships:
- I've found that they favor range above all else. The Caracal only seems gimped to you because you are probably trying to use it like a Gallente ship. Stay as far away from your enemies as you can and use range to your advantage.
- Drones are not the forte of the Caldari, so don't expect them to have very large drone bays. Hell... even their drones are not all that good. Switch back to using Gallente drones and make life easier for yourself.
- Missiles are smexy when used right. But the skill tree is vastly different and MUCH more specialized that the turret ones. They also behave differently too. Check over each skill and try training up the ones that help with damage application.


TL;DR... what you should do:
- Throw away the idea that your fit has to be cap stable. Your tank should be made to last long enough for you to kill all your enemies (or minimize the incoming DPS so you only have to pulse the booster).
- To flesh out the previous point; max out your fits to deal as much damage as possible.
- Use range to your advantage.
- Shields are more "specialized" compared to armor. Try to focus on one specific form of shields and not mix and match.
Joran Dravius
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-04-17 10:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Joran Dravius
ShahFluffers wrote:
blah blah blah huge post

Very informative, thanks. Some of it I already knew, but it was a good insight into the shield tanking mindset. I probably posted it before, but don't feel like rereading the thread, but what I plan to do is just crosstrain gallente and use it for PvE and use caldari for PvP. PvP tends to have shorter fights and buffer tanking instead of active tanking so my caldari issues shouldn't be a problem. The corp I'm planning to join reimburses drakes lost in PvP so that's a pretty good reason to be using one by itself. For the PvE stuff I plan to do I really don't have a choice about being cap stable. It's simply impossible without it.
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#23 - 2012-04-17 11:55:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Takahashi
I do not know what you are doing wrong but I have both Gallente and Caldari specced characters and gallente are pure crap in PVE compared to the Caldari.

Kestrel Caracal Drake all Passive regen + Afterburner smack lvl 1 to lvl 3 or lvl 4s in case of the Drake
From the more fancy ships: Cerberus, NightHawk, and Tengu are also fine PVE ships.

Scorpion Navy Issue is great as well and a solid lvl 4 mission ship
But IMO

Fury Cruise missile cap injected XL booster CNR smacks down lvl4' and is hands down most versatile ship to mission in.
Google Liangs CNR or something like that to get the basic idea of the fit.

then there is the Golem.
This one while having gret DPS on paper is bit too odd for me and requires micromanagement to be really effective.
I prefer the CNR.

Gallente alternative:

High End

Navy Issue Dominix [Shield tank gank + Sentry version] This is good but bit like the golem quite hands on and Extremely skill intensive. It suffers a bit also from the fixed damge type of the hybrids.

Megathron Navy Same thing like Domi but Armor tank of course with sentries as well [good ship but only against its enemies]

Low end

Both Vexor and Myrmidon are slower then the Caracal and Drake in classic missions.
For ratting in low or null I actually prefer these since they do not need the ammo.

Ishtar and Cerb are comparable in PVE scenarios with Ishtar being bit more flexible and better tank against Guristas.
T3 cruisers really the gallente one and PVE LOL
Command ships LOL

Overall I can say that Caldari >>> Gallente in PVE situations.

Must be either bad fits, wrong tactics or both if you have the opposite experience.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-04-17 13:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Klymer
Nice to see people recommending 75 million in launchers for a 7 million isk hull Roll

Anyway, yeah with the Kestrel and Caracal your better off using them to kite mission rats and avoid getting hit Big smile
If you need a cap stable ship then the Drake is what you want plain and simple, something along the lines of the following perhaps as it's both low cost and low skill requirement:

[Drake, XR-3200 Launchers

7x XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay (Scourge Heavy Missile

2x Large Shield Extender II
2x Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I

3x Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System I

3x Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

5x Hobgoblin II


The pilot I have that flies it against Guristas has Missile launcher Operation 5, to allow training Guided Missile Precision, and all the missile support skills at 4. GMP to 4 is really important as it decrease the explosion radius of the missiles, like Warhead Rigor Catalyst rigs do, so it frees up the rigs slots. The only other combat or fitting related skills the pilot has at 5 so far are Drones and Electronics. He started out as my Hulk pilot and has about 6m SP total, mostly related to flying the Hulk. The stats in evehq are as follows:

EHP 101k
Tank 427dps
Damage 327dps includes drones
Velocity 329m/s
Cap Stable 47%

I guess the "penalty" for awesome missile win in pve is the severe lack of cap stability. I mean barring the Drake and Tengu, the only other ships I can think of that have reasonable training requirements, can tank well, have reasonable cap stability - meaning they don't require boosters, while at the same time not sacrificing their damage output are the Navy Scorpion, the Gila and the Rattlesnake.
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
#25 - 2012-04-17 13:54:46 UTC
The Caracal makes it very easy to do T2 missions when passive tanked on a low skill character with craptastic capacitor skills.I used one to grind Ishukone Corp level 2 sec missions against Guristas.

Highs:

5x Meta 3 Assault Missile Launchers (I think they are called Rapid Light Missile Launchers now), load kinetic missiles

Mids:

1 Large Shield Extender
10MN AB
Passive Thermal Resist Amp
Passive Kinetic Resist Amp
Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Lows

2 x Ballistic Control Systems, or 1 and a CPU mod if you need it.


Train Missile Bombardment and Missile Projection to Level 3 so that you can easily hit at over 30km. Then just keep your ship at 30km from any cruisers. Frigates will come close but get eaten alive by your assault missiles.

Your DPS is low on paper but due to the low explosion radius it is always consistently applied.
KardelSharpeye
The Watchtower.
#26 - 2012-04-17 19:17:43 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
If you're using a Caracal for L2s (I assume...) use a passive shield fit with omni-resists (2 x invuls). If I recall (used to have a Caldari missioning alt), you can fit a decent one with fairly low skills.

E: There are probably far better fits out there, but I'm pretty sure mine looked something like this one. You can swap out an invul for a specific hardener for tough missions:

[Caracal, PvE Fit]

'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Trauma Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Trauma Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Trauma Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Trauma Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Trauma Heavy Missile

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I


Why don't you look up the price of those arby launchers before using them?
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#27 - 2012-04-17 19:46:18 UTC
KardelSharpeye wrote:
Why don't you look up the price of those arby launchers before using them?
Karl Hobb wrote:
(used to have a Caldari missioning alt)

Please read before getting your panties in a bunch. Six months ago they weren't that expensive.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

Shepherd Finch
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-04-18 00:40:15 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
KardelSharpeye wrote:
Why don't you look up the price of those arby launchers before using them?
Karl Hobb wrote:
(used to have a Caldari missioning alt)

Please read before getting your panties in a bunch. Six months ago they weren't that expensive.


'Arabalest ' Heavy Launchers have always been ridiculously expensive. It's what bad Drake pilots fit.

Not that it matters, HMLs are a poor choice for L2s where you're still primarily taking out frigates. Rapid Light Missile Launcher (nee Assault Launcher) should be used instead.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#29 - 2012-04-18 02:50:03 UTC
Shepherd Finch wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
KardelSharpeye wrote:
Why don't you look up the price of those arby launchers before using them?
Karl Hobb wrote:
(used to have a Caldari missioning alt)

Please read before getting your panties in a bunch. Six months ago they weren't that expensive.


'Arabalest ' Heavy Launchers have always been ridiculously expensive. It's what bad Drake pilots fit.

Not that it matters, HMLs are a poor choice for L2s where you're still primarily taking out frigates. Rapid Light Missile Launcher (nee Assault Launcher) should be used instead.


This is overwhelmingly true. Rapid Light Missile Launchers are better for Level 2s than HMLs. Man, that really is a cumbersome name.

Arbalest HMLs have always been 12-14m each. If you found some for less than that, you were incredibly lucky.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Vorll Minaaran
Centre Of Attention
#30 - 2012-04-18 08:47:52 UTC
hi,

that was my caracal when i was a few weeks old noob. worked well in lvl2 missions with my mostly lvl3 skills:
[Caracal, caracal 1]
Damage Control I
Local Power Plant Manager: Diagnostic System I

Invulnerability Field I (now: Adaptive Invulnerability Field I )
M51 Iterative Shield Regenerator
Large Subordinate Screen Stabilizer I
Large Subordinate Screen Stabilizer I
Large Subordinate Screen Stabilizer I

Salvager I
SV-2000 Assault Missile Bay, Bloodclaw Light Missile (now called Rapid Light missile launcher or so with Scourge light missile)
SV-2000 Assault Missile Bay, Bloodclaw Light Missile (now called Rapid Light missile launcher or so with Scourge light missile)
'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile

there were only very expensive rigs (only large size was back then), so no rigs
without even drones, i was so noob that i havent noticed the caracal has drone bay :D
then later moved to this fit:
[Caracal, caracal 2]
Damage Control II
Muon Coil Bolt Array I (it's a bit expensive, but it was looted one)

V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix (i dont know what its name now, maybe Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I)
'Anointed' I EM Ward Reinforcement (maybe now Limited 'Anointed' EM Ward Field)
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Salvager I
SV-2000 Assault Missile Bay, Bloodclaw Light Missile (now called Rapid Light missile launcher or so with Scourge light missile)
SV-2000 Assault Missile Bay, Bloodclaw Light Missile (now called Rapid Light missile launcher or so with Scourge light missile)
'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile

Hornet I x2

then i moved to the drake and lvl3s

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-04-18 15:32:24 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
For starters, shields are WAY more skill intensive and specialized than armor.


Yeah, getting T2 stuff without level 5 skills is epic as hell.
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#32 - 2012-04-18 17:09:01 UTC
Joran Dravius wrote:

Meh, if I need a mostly T2 fit just for **** easy level 2 missions the ship is trash. I'm just going to accept that my training plans are going to take an extra day and a half and crosstrain gallente. It'll be faster than training for that fit. For now, can you give me a decent passive fit I can use while I wait? Maybe I'll have better luck with that.


Look, dude, people who actually have legitimate advice to give you on shield ships are going to actually fly shield ships, and the fits they have lying around at random to post on the forums are mostly going to be T2 fits, just like the majority of my saved fits for armor are t2 fits.

Just substitute the meta 4 for the T2 stuff, Mr. Ungrateful Lazy Guy. This is not rocket science.

(Well, it's imaginary rocket science, but whatever)
Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
#33 - 2012-04-18 20:37:11 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
If you're using a Caracal for L2s (I assume...) use a passive shield fit with omni-resists (2 x invuls). If I recall (used to have a Caldari missioning alt), you can fit a decent one with fairly low skills.

E: There are probably far better fits out there, but I'm pretty sure mine looked something like this one. You can swap out an invul for a specific hardener for tough missions:

[Caracal, PvE Fit]

'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Trauma Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Trauma Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Trauma Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Trauma Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Trauma Heavy Missile

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I


I don't have anything to add, but arby launchers on a caracal? You realize that just one of those costs more than the ship hull?
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