These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

HAMs or HMLs for a L4 Tengu?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-04-17 01:28:53 UTC
Recently I've been experimenting with various tengu setups. Not exactly copying a fit module by module but swapping some stuff in or out to see what works best for my play style.

Right now I am stuck between using HAMs or HMLs for a L4 Tengu.

HAMs obviously bring more DPS, but is that advantage really enough to cover the travel times to targets? The thing I like about HMLs is that I rarely have to move far to hit one group or the other. I can often tank a room without even turning on all my resists just because of how far away I am kiting the NPCs from.

However with HMLs I'm not getting the advantage of a Tengu, blasting through missions in no more than 15 minutes. I still don't feel like I am doing things right with the HAMS as well. Even though my targets die significantly faster the travel time negates that advantage.

Could someone tell me what to do/ what I am doing wrong?

This is my fit as of now

Quote:

High
6 HML IIs / HAM IIs (still trying to decide which to role with)

Medium
5a prototype shield support I
Phased weapon navigation array generation extron
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
*Mission Specific Hardener *
Pithi B-Type small shield booster
Republic Fleet 10MN afterburner

Low
4 Ballistic Control systems II (saving up for Caldari Navy BCS)

Subsystems
Dissolution Sequencer
Amplification Node
Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Accelerated Ejection Bay
Fuel Catalyst




Any suggestions? All advice is welcome though I would appreciate some suggestions on the cheaper side.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#2 - 2012-04-17 01:30:32 UTC
Buy two Tengus (one HML, one HAM) and use the appropriate one for the mission. They need different rigs anyway.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-04-17 01:32:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Liang Nuren wrote:
Buy two Tengus (one HML, one HAM) and use the appropriate one for the mission. They need different rigs anyway.

-Liang


That could work, though I don't plan on investing in a second tengu. I can afford to switch rigs when necessary however. What rigs would be necessary? Just for reference.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#4 - 2012-04-17 01:33:34 UTC
What's it hurt to have a second Tengu sitting around? Switching ships to the better ship per mission takes a couple of seconds, and refitting rigs can cost more than your mission brings in...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#5 - 2012-04-17 01:43:23 UTC
I haven't tried HAM tengu for missions, but I do switch between Tengu and Mach, and I'm not sure whether HAM tengu can beat Mach for some missions (maybe Damsel for tanking and smashing the pleasure hub quickly?) Serpentis blockade might also be one of those missions as you'd have to fly close in anyway due to damps and it hardly has any frigs. Overall though, I'd blind wager that Mach as a second ship would be more useful than a second HAM tengu. Maybe I'm wrong though and someone with experience in HAM Tengu can enlighten me.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-04-17 01:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Liang Nuren wrote:
What's it hurt to have a second Tengu sitting around? Switching ships to the better ship per mission takes a couple of seconds, and refitting rigs can cost more than your mission brings in...

-Liang


It wouldn't hurt at all, it's just that due to my current income in EVE and my current goals I would not consider a second Tengu. I could afford it but I have that money set aside for other goals and in case **** hits the fan.

You, see my short term goal is to outsource almost completely to nullsec. Right now I am using hi-sec mission running as way to gain funds for such a project. I am in a nullsec PVP corp so almost all the money I make goes to buying PVP gear and future investments to help make my job easier in nullsec.

Is there a way to meet halfway on this?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#7 - 2012-04-17 02:01:01 UTC
If you only want one - then get the HML variant. It beats the socks off the HAM version.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-04-17 02:28:34 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Buy two Tengus (one HML, one HAM) and use the appropriate one for the mission. They need different rigs anyway.

-Liang


That could work, though I don't plan on investing in a second tengu. I can afford to switch rigs when necessary however. What rigs would be necessary? Just for reference.



I'd advice you the 2 T2 rigor 1 T2 flare for HM's but there are other valid stuff around, all depends exactly what and how you fit everything in your ship.

For HAM's I'd advice you to take a look at Stoicfaux board, excellent job and you find exactly the rig you need for the job you do and theoretical dps output

Actually, I wouldn't advice you to use HAM's unless specific situations/rats, I'm sure some people will care to give you much more interesting information and links (sry at work)
stoicfaux
#9 - 2012-04-17 04:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
The HAM Tengu can travel at ~661m/s under afterburner and is limited to a ~40km range. Meanwhile, the HML Tengu has 110km range with missiles that travel at 8,400m/s. (8,400m/s > 661m/s.)

T2 Fury do more damage than T1 HAMs with roughly the same missile explosion velocity/radius, so you "must" use T2 Rage (or Faction) ammo with a HAM Tengu otherwise you're gimping yourself versus the HML Tengu.

Impact of travel time on DPS:
* HML Tengu raw DPS: 761
* HAM Tengu raw DPS: 984 894

If the HAM Tengu is 10km out of range, then it takes 10,000m / 661m/s = 15.1 seconds to get into range. During those 15.1 seconds the HML Tengu is shooting. How long does it take for the HAM Tengu to catch up to the HML Tengu?
894t = 761(t + 15.1)
894t = 761t + 11,491.1
133t = 11,491.1
t = 86.4 seconds.
Therefore, the HAM Tengu needs to fire for 86.4 seconds before it catches up to the DPS output of the HML Tengu. Meaning, the sooner you can shoot, the sooner you can apply DPS. And that was just for 10km.


edit: Dyslexia. HAM DPS is 894, not 984. Re-ran the numbers which makes the HAM range problem even worse.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#10 - 2012-04-17 04:57:27 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
The HAM Tengu can travel at ~661m/s under afterburner and is limited to a ~40km range. Meanwhile, the HML Tengu has 110km range with missiles that travel at 8,400m/s. (8,400m/s > 661m/s.)

T2 Fury do more damage than T1 HAMs with roughly the same missile explosion velocity/radius, so you "must" use T2 Rage (or Faction) ammo with a HAM Tengu otherwise you're gimping yourself versus the HML Tengu.

Impact of travel time on DPS:
* HML Tengu raw DPS: 761
* HAM Tengu raw DPS: 984

If the HAM Tengu is 10km out of range, then it takes 10,000m / 661m/s = 15.1 seconds to get into range. During those 15.1 seconds the HML Tengu is shooting. How long does it take for the HAM Tengu to catch up to the HML Tengu?
984t = 761(t + 15.1)
984t = 761t + 11,491.1
223t = 11,491.1
t = 51.5 seconds.
Therefore, the HAM Tengu needs to fire for 51.5 seconds before it catches up to the DPS output of the HML Tengu. Meaning, the sooner you can shoot, the sooner you can apply DPS. And that was just for 10km.



This is why you only use the HAM Tengu for certain missions. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tenga Halaris
Galactic Traders Union
#11 - 2012-04-17 11:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenga Halaris
double post :P
Tenga Halaris
Galactic Traders Union
#12 - 2012-04-17 11:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenga Halaris
Pimp your Empire-Clone clone with all Imps and use the HM Tengu.

[Tengu, Omni]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Pith C-Type Photon Scattering Field
Pithum C-Type Invulnerability Field
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir

850 DPS
400 Omni tank ( Spec hardeners are better ofc)
660 m/s

The Bayloading Acc adds some serious DPS to the fit, because the Acc Ej Sub is so OP on the Tengu. A must have, imho.
Ira Infernus
Knights-of-Cydonia
#13 - 2012-04-17 12:52:13 UTC
You will NEED dual prop for a HAM tengu, aswell as range rigs. Not only that, but you will require a target painter and a web for them to work, If you want a booster, 2 resistance mods, and dual prop + 2 utilities you can only get away with 3 lows while maintaining 6 launcher points, which means with T2 missiles you can hit +/- 900 DPS with HAML's, and about 700-750 with T1 missiles.

HAM's are worth it, but IMO, you are better off dedicating that isk toward a Mach, NM, or Marauder...
BearJews
Order of Extrodinary Gentlemen
#14 - 2012-04-17 21:23:52 UTC
Do not get a HAM tengu. If you have to use short ranged missiles go with a marauder. Tengu with HMLS is by far the best all around LVL4 (at least in guirstas/serpentis) space.
Boz Wel
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2012-04-17 21:49:30 UTC
I used HAM's for about 2 missions before I switched to HML and never looked back. For the space I mission in, there really aren't a lot of missions where it's worth it to switch to HAM's. For missions where the rats spawn very close to your warp in, HAMs may work out to a slightly faster mission completion time. On the other hand, there are probably other high DPS ships with cheaper price tags that you could use just as effectively at those short ranges. I do keep several tengus for several different purposes (exploration, missions etc.) in my hangar, but I personally haven't found a need to keep a dedicated HAM mission tengu around.