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Logistics Aggression Fix (but not in the veterinary sense...)

Author
Aamrr
#1 - 2011-09-13 07:48:23 UTC
TL;DR: Give remote assistance modules an aggression timer equal to that of the target they're assisting, rather than a fresh timer. This eliminates RR-docking game abuses, without removing the ability of a logi gang to withdraw from a fight by non-aggression.

Presently, logistics ships can assist combat ships without being hit with a combat aggression timer. This allows them to repair gang mates without losing the ability to dock or jump. Lots of pilots have taken issue with this, and for good reason. The most common solution to this is giving remote assistance modules an aggression timer when they help aggressed pilots. Unfortunately, this medicine is worse than the disease it's trying to cure.

A gang must be able to withdraw from a fight. Presently, if a battleship shoots something, they can cease fire and still run their local tank modules while they wait out their aggression. They can shoot something and receive remote reps while they wait out their aggression. And when the timer is done, the gang (logistics included) can safely dock or use the jump gate. The important part here is that you can still tank while the timers tick down -- you just can't undertake offensive action.

Now suppose that remote assistance incurred an aggression timer in the normal sense. The logistics pilot would receive an aggression timer for repping an aggressed pilot. This timer would quickly spread to the entire logistics chain via their capacitor transfer modules. If these incurred aggression in the normal sense, then these timers would be continually refreshed and the gang would not be able to withdraw without stopping their tanks for a full 60 seconds. I shouldn't have to explain why that isn't a survivable option.

Suppose, on the other hand, that remote assistance didn't give you a fresh timer, but rather gave you a timer equal to that of the pilot you're assisting. That is, repping a pilot that hasn't shot anyone for 10 seconds would give you a 50 second timer. This timer would still spread among the logistics gang -- but it wouldn't be refreshed every time a module cycled.

If the timers worked as I described, where you inherited the target's timer, the logistics gang would be able to dock or jump out at precisely 60 seconds from their gang's last combat action -- which prevents logistics pilots from being able to dock up immediately, as described, but also allows the gang as a whole to cease offensive action and still withdraw effectively.

Please make remote assistance modules incur a combat aggression timer equal to the the remaining time on the pilot they're assisting.
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-09-13 07:57:58 UTC
I support this idea
(where is the check box for "support idea"?)
Aamrr
#3 - 2011-09-13 07:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
I dunno. I think you can just click the "like" button on the first post?

Posting does bump the thread though. Big smile
Dirty J0e
DOES NOT APPROVE
#4 - 2011-09-13 08:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty J0e
this would solve a few problems. which is why it will never be implemented Roll
Rhianna Ghost
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2011-09-13 15:31:35 UTC
OK, so like and bump, As I thought it illogical to Not flag logistics at all, but this solution really could work.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#6 - 2011-09-14 00:31:52 UTC
Supported.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Egilmonsc
Massively Mob
#7 - 2011-09-14 04:06:05 UTC
+1 for addressing neutral RR.
"BABY, MY LOVE IS BOMB  COME ON THE BOMB THE TWIST!"
Aamrr
#8 - 2011-09-14 07:11:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
Technically, this isn't so much a way of addressing neutral-RR as it's addressing RR in general. An in-corporation logistics pilot can exploit the current instant-dock mechanics just as easily as an out-of-corp pilot can. This is really more about fixing docking games, in which logistics pilots can dock up at any time without suffering from the 60-second combat aggression timer.

If you're concerned about wardecs and out-of-corporation logistics moving about freely until they get to combat, then that will need an entirely different proposal, such as lengthening the war-declaration assistance aggression timer. If this is a concern to you, you should probably open a separate proposal.

If they appropriately address the combat aggression timer, I don't think it would be particularly necessary. People seem to confuse the two issues, but they really are two very separate issues regarding how remote assistance interacts with aggression timers. I'd suggest trying this first and seeing if the whining about neutral-RR is really more just about docking games in general. Small changes first, you know? That said, I wouldn't oppose such a proposal so long as it didn't negatively affect low/null-sec logistics.

Edit: Here's a guideline for differentiating the two problems. If it affects pilots in low/null-security space, it's not a "neutral-RR" problem. It's the combat-aggression remote-assistance problem I've described in this thread. If it's an issue relevant only to wardecs and canflipping, then you've got a neutral-RR problem.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-09-14 10:20:54 UTC
This would be pretty good.
Shingorash
Sons of Luminaire
#10 - 2011-09-14 11:15:47 UTC
+1
Aamrr
#11 - 2011-09-16 09:18:39 UTC
14 likes. Maybe we can get a CSM member to champion this?
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#12 - 2011-09-17 18:37:47 UTC
Which timer is used?

In a big brawl with say ten Guardians, all inter-connected via cap.trans. but repairing 3-4 different targets .. which timer is transmitted though a logistics chain?
If it is the highest then one person who missed the disengage order can 'strand' the lot of them when the dps vacates.
If it is the lowest then you can decloak a covert for a single cycle and the whole chain is aggression free within a few seconds.
Aamrr
#13 - 2011-09-17 22:01:06 UTC
It'd be the highest. If an idiot who ignores the disengage order keeps firing, then everyone either has to stop assisting him (at which point their timers begin to tick down), or he has to stop shooting.

If you can't coordinate your gang well enough to extract yourself, then that's on you.
Rico Minali
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-09-18 07:46:22 UTC
This is a great idea and it covers both sides of teh problem, supported.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Morar Santee
#15 - 2011-09-19 04:21:39 UTC
This is easily the best suggestion I've seen concerning this matter. Very much supported.

Also: Now the "Support" button is gone, and we still can't have a frigging vote function with these super-unbelievably-awesome forums they spent so much time coding on?
Sepheir Sepheron
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#16 - 2011-09-19 05:04:04 UTC
Ya.
Aamrr
#17 - 2011-09-27 12:59:53 UTC
I haven't heard any objections so far. I think this idea needs more visibility.
Aineko Macx
#18 - 2011-09-28 09:48:59 UTC
Zavulon Sukkot
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
#19 - 2011-09-28 17:32:50 UTC
supporting this post.
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#20 - 2011-10-01 09:18:26 UTC
Supporting.
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