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Drake rebalance

First post
Author
TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-06-09 14:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: TravelBuoy
CCP want fewer missile spaming at 0.0 sec. That's why they want nerfing drakes.
That's why they created caldari tier 3 BCs with guns (the original ideas was tier3 BCs with torpedo launchers).
Too many alliances using drakes in 0.0, check the fleet battles there in null sec. Missiles and drones create lag,so this is the CCP solution against players.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-06-11 12:25:24 UTC
The Drake isn't one problem, as long as people keep looking at it as being over used because its OP, people either will nerf is to dust or it won't change a thing.


There are 12 T1 Battlecruisers and only 1 of them uses missiles.

It needs to be usefull for both long range and shortrange missiles, so needs extra powergrid and CPU because of those launcher systems, it needs kick ass shields because of the short range missiles ect ect.

If you look at the other weapon systems there are several options and those specify towards one weapon type.

Hence the problem with missile launchers:

I think the best way to aproach the Drake it by removing it completly, bring two new Battlecruisers one long range heavy missile spammer and a shortrange brawling Heavy assault missle launcher.


1) Due to the specialisation towards one type of launcher the ships will be easier to balance.
2) less chance of doing to many things to well, cpu, powergrid can be adjusted to launcher type, shield, risitance and speed can be adjusted to role.
3) current drake should be brought in line with Navy Faction and find a place there.

Might be the way to look at the Caracal and Raven as well.
filingo rapongo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-06-11 14:56:37 UTC
imho the drake should be buffed because caldari ships are not often used in pvp anywhere like gallente ships are
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-06-12 01:45:06 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Shoehorn ships into Long/Short Range

No. Bad Idea. Each ship needs to be able to perform as either a long range or short range weapon platform, else there is no variety. If i want to use a HAM Drake, im going to. Try and stop me.
The problem isnt the drake, the problem is mainly heavy missiles and secondarily missiles in general. Leave the drake with its resist bonus.

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Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-06-12 08:25:32 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
Shoehorn ships into Long/Short Range

No. Bad Idea. Each ship needs to be able to perform as either a long range or short range weapon platform, else there is no variety. If i want to use a HAM Drake, im going to. Try and stop me.
The problem isnt the drake, the problem is mainly heavy missiles and secondarily missiles in general. Leave the drake with its resist bonus.



If there isn't something wrong with the Drake there is something wrong wth all other missile ships.

If there is variaty strongly depends on point of view, a lot of people here say the Drake should be looked at because every one is flying it (No variety).
CCP thinks it does to many things to well (Or at least says so in the meeting)

Now I never will stop you making a HAM drake though I'd suggest they bring in 2 new ships where there is now one will be more HAM friendly than the other.

Keep the Drake but turn it to a Navy faction, maybe adjust it a little to fit that role.



For example when you look at the Caracal and the Raven.

Caracal has bonuses on 3 types of missiles, though it's all but impossible to fit one of them the other only works marginal and the only fit that make the ship shine is with rapid assault launchers, The Raven has bonuses for both Cruise and Torp though to low in power, cap, cpu shield and slots to make a working Torp raven that can should anything smaller than BS.
While the Cruise Raven is only usable in PVE.


Now I don't say missiles are fine, Cruise missiles definetly should be looked at.


But I think it would be a better solution to look at those ships like Hybrids, While both Caldari and Galente are able to fit Blasters and railguns, their ships are specialised for one or the other.

That will bring "Variaty" in the number of ships flown and give us the posebillity to fly certain ships more effectively, Would be nice to fly a working Heavy missile T1 Cruiser in to battle. Or a Ham T1 Cruiser for that matter.
TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2012-06-12 10:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: TravelBuoy
Mike Whiite wrote:
Mira Lynne wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
Shoehorn ships into Long/Short Range

No. Bad Idea. Each ship needs to be able to perform as either a long range or short range weapon platform, else there is no variety. If i want to use a HAM Drake, im going to. Try and stop me.
The problem isnt the drake, the problem is mainly heavy missiles and secondarily missiles in general. Leave the drake with its resist bonus.



If there isn't something wrong with the Drake there is something wrong wth all other missile ships.

If there is variaty strongly depends on point of view, a lot of people here say the Drake should be looked at because every one is flying it (No variety).
CCP thinks it does to many things to well (Or at least says so in the meeting)

Now I never will stop you making a HAM drake though I'd suggest they bring in 2 new ships where there is now one will be more HAM friendly than the other.

Keep the Drake but turn it to a Navy faction, maybe adjust it a little to fit that role.



For example when you look at the Caracal and the Raven.

Caracal has bonuses on 3 types of missiles, though it's all but impossible to fit one of them the other only works marginal and the only fit that make the ship shine is with rapid assault launchers, The Raven has bonuses for both Cruise and Torp though to low in power, cap, cpu shield and slots to make a working Torp raven that can should anything smaller than BS.
While the Cruise Raven is only usable in PVE.


Now I don't say missiles are fine, Cruise missiles definetly should be looked at.


But I think it would be a better solution to look at those ships like Hybrids, While both Caldari and Galente are able to fit Blasters and railguns, their ships are specialised for one or the other.

That will bring "Variaty" in the number of ships flown and give us the posebillity to fly certain ships more effectively, Would be nice to fly a working Heavy missile T1 Cruiser in to battle. Or a Ham T1 Cruiser for that matter.


You still dont understand,no problem with drakes, but they dont want missile spamming because that's create too much lag.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-06-12 12:32:48 UTC
TravelBuoy wrote:

You still dont understand,no problem with drakes, but they dont want missile spamming because that's create too much lag.



Although I've heard of this popular believe, I've a hard time buying it when CCP puts so much time money and effort in, Missile grafics and new ship models.

Ruareve
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-06-12 17:05:05 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Tier 3 BCs are not perfect on first release. This shouldn't be a giant deal, they just need a speed & agility nerf. Then the drake and cane will return to top spot of needing a nerf, and this thread will be back on topic.

So about that universe heat death...

This month starting out like all the others for the past few years http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

But keep telling yourself and posting your authoritative opinion. It will surely be more persuasive over factual/statistical evidence. Nothing to see here move along> These are not the Drakes you are looking for . . .

Regardless, as both proponents and opponents know, heat death may come before CCP gets around to doing any serious ship rebalancing. Here's to 5 more frigs with the next expansion Ugh




The thing I find interesting about the link is the fact that Hurricanes are nearly the same distance from all the other ships as the Drake is from the Hurricane. So if the argument is the Drake should be nerfed because it's number one with nearly two times the number of kills as the next ship then shouldn't the Hurricane also need a nerf since it has nearly two times the number of kills as the next ship? Once you get past the Drake and Hurricane the numbers kinda balance out.

Also, given the stats wouldn't it be Drakes and 'Canes online?

Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/

Alsyth
#69 - 2012-06-12 18:58:29 UTC
New Drake will have 8 lauchers, given this (Eve Online Facebook page): www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150961517219394.436182.17614129393&type=1

So it will most probably lose the kinetic bonus (else it would be a dps buff, I doubt that), but what else will it lose? And what will it get instead?
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2012-06-12 19:56:08 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
TravelBuoy wrote:

You still dont understand,no problem with drakes, but they dont want missile spamming because that's create too much lag.



Although I've heard of this popular believe, I've a hard time buying it when CCP puts so much time money and effort in, Missile grafics and new ship models.




You are wrong. 0.0 fleet battles with 600+ drakes, not equal with pve players at high sec with new missile effects.

Maybe you never see a fleet battle in 0.0.

Check Top 20 http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 60432
2 Hurricane 35874
3 Tengu 19113

Rank Weapons Kills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 21684
2 425mm AutoCannon II 14925
3 200mm AutoCannon II 10490

Most used ship in 0.0 is Drake because they have massive shield HP with enough high resists.
This is why easy to tank them with logistic ships.

A smaller ordinary fleetbattle in 0.0 : http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13451706

Check how many drake used there.
Selaya Ataru
Phalanx Solutions
#71 - 2012-06-12 20:11:58 UTC
Alsyth wrote:
New Drake will have 8 lauchers, given this (Eve Online Facebook page): www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150961517219394.436182.17614129393&type=1

So it will most probably lose the kinetic bonus (else it would be a dps buff, I doubt that), but what else will it lose? And what will it get instead?


Speed/Range instead of Damage would be the logical thing to do for a Caldari ship
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2012-06-12 21:35:08 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Ribikoka wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
TravelBuoy wrote:

You still dont understand,no problem with drakes, but they dont want missile spamming because that's create too much lag.



Although I've heard of this popular believe, I've a hard time buying it when CCP puts so much time money and effort in, Missile grafics and new ship models.




You are wrong. 0.0 fleet battles with 600+ drakes, not equal with pve players at high sec with new missile effects.

Maybe you never see a fleet battle in 0.0.

Check Top 20 http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 60432
2 Hurricane 35874
3 Tengu 19113

Rank Weapons Kills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 21684
2 425mm AutoCannon II 14925
3 200mm AutoCannon II 10490

Most used ship in 0.0 is Drake because they have massive shield HP with enough high resists.
This is why easy to tank them with logistic ships.

A smaller ordinary fleetbattle in 0.0 : http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13451706

Check how many drake used there.

I think you're missing the point. He's not disputing that the Drake is widely used in massive 0.0 battles. His point was that missiles aren't such a significant issue that CCP is actively trying to discourage their use.

The Drake changes are part of the adjustments that will be made to all ships as part of tiercide. It has nothing to do with missiles.

Also, that battle report... wtf? Why are there so many CFC members on both sides of the engagement? I don't understand what happened there.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#73 - 2012-06-12 21:43:02 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
TravelBuoy wrote:

You still dont understand,no problem with drakes, but they dont want missile spamming because that's create too much lag.



Although I've heard of this popular believe, I've a hard time buying it when CCP puts so much time money and effort in, Missile grafics and new ship models.




You are wrong. 0.0 fleet battles with 600+ drakes, not equal with pve players at high sec with new missile effects.

Maybe you never see a fleet battle in 0.0.

Check Top 20 http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 60432
2 Hurricane 35874
3 Tengu 19113

Rank Weapons Kills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 21684
2 425mm AutoCannon II 14925
3 200mm AutoCannon II 10490

Most used ship in 0.0 is Drake because they have massive shield HP with enough high resists.
This is why easy to tank them with logistic ships.

A smaller ordinary fleetbattle in 0.0 : http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13451706

Check how many drake used there.

I think you're missing the point. He's not disputing that the Drake is widely used in massive 0.0 battles. His point was that missiles aren't such a significant issue that CCP is actively trying to discourage their use.

The Drake changes are part of the adjustments that will be made to all ships as part of tiercide. It has nothing to do with missiles.

Also, that battle report... wtf? Why are there so many CFC members on both sides of the engagement? I don't understand what happened there.


Actually, it is likely that there will be weapons tweaks going in at the same time as tiercide. Sometimes the ship is the issue, sometimes it's the weapon.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#74 - 2012-06-12 22:47:29 UTC
The only "nerf" a Drake would need is a 5% reduction in CPU and PG so that unskilled characters can't mount the full complement of missile launchers and shield fittings, and skilled characters will need to choose between 7 launchers or a MWD.

Switching to ROF and missile velocity is going down the path of homogenising all battlecruisers.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#75 - 2012-06-12 22:52:10 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:
Most used ship in 0.0 is Drake because they have massive shield HP with enough high resists.
This is why easy to tank them with logistic ships.


Why isn't the Prophecy popular then? It has a resist bonus, just like the Drake.

Perhaps the issue is the ease of fitting tank and DPS to the Drake, where the Prophecy being an armour tanker needs low slots for tank and DPS? The issue might also be the ease of projecting damage at any range using missiles. Perhaps heavy missiles need a nerf, so that a Drake can only reach 50km and an optimised Tengu can only reach out to 80km?

No other medium size weapon system has that damage projection capability while still being mobile. Sentry drones have severe drawbacks (you have to deploy them), combat drones have to travel to the target (during which time they can be shot down). Missiles can be blown out of the sky using smartbombs, which most battleships will have fitted to combat drones in the first place.

There's more to the popularity of drakes than simply being a huge EHP buffer. Changing the bonuses on the ship itself isn't going to change the main reason they're popular.
Hun Jakuza
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2012-06-13 00:02:20 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
TravelBuoy wrote:

You still dont understand,no problem with drakes, but they dont want missile spamming because that's create too much lag.



Although I've heard of this popular believe, I've a hard time buying it when CCP puts so much time money and effort in, Missile grafics and new ship models.




You are wrong. 0.0 fleet battles with 600+ drakes, not equal with pve players at high sec with new missile effects.

Maybe you never see a fleet battle in 0.0.

Check Top 20 http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 60432
2 Hurricane 35874
3 Tengu 19113

Rank Weapons Kills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 21684
2 425mm AutoCannon II 14925
3 200mm AutoCannon II 10490

Most used ship in 0.0 is Drake because they have massive shield HP with enough high resists.
This is why easy to tank them with logistic ships.

A smaller ordinary fleetbattle in 0.0 : http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13451706

Check how many drake used there.

I think you're missing the point. He's not disputing that the Drake is widely used in massive 0.0 battles. His point was that missiles aren't such a significant issue that CCP is actively trying to discourage their use.

The Drake changes are part of the adjustments that will be made to all ships as part of tiercide. It has nothing to do with missiles.

Also, that battle report... wtf? Why are there so many CFC members on both sides of the engagement? I don't understand what happened there.



Just you missed the point there.
Everyone know the most used ship in 0.0 is the Drake.
Missile spam of +500 drake in fleetbattle generate horrible lag, much more than any gunboats. The CCP trying to decrease lag there, that's why they want to nerfing Drakes. Common 0.0 fitted drake with shield extenders have over 20k shield and 70-80% resists. This is almost 100k effective HP. That's why so popular, because easy tanking them with logistics. This is the first reason CCP why want to change Drake 5% resist/lvl bonuses.
If they nerfing effective HP of Drakes, their numbers in 0.0 fleets would be decreasing.
Smaller Drake numbers generate fewer missile spam and fewer lags.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-06-13 00:49:54 UTC
If CCP really want to reduce lag, they'll make the long range missiles (cruise, heavy + light) into low ROF high damage (aka volley) missiles, much like artillery.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-06-13 06:48:15 UTC
Really and to decrease lag you give it a RoF bonus.

I'm not saying that Drake blobs are not causing lag, I'm saying that it's hard to believe that CCP is actively discuraging the use of missile ships as a whole, While putting so much effort in it.

and by making the Current Drake a Navy Issue (Maybe scalling it a little up, and create 2 replacments as T1 more specialised towards 1 weapon system so the ship can be better placed among the others and there for be better ballenced, it will probably be less used as 0.0 Cannon folder as well.


James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2012-06-13 09:06:20 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Really and to decrease lag you give it a RoF bonus.

Good point. Higher ROF means more missiles on the field. If this was done in the interest of decreasing lag it's a pretty poor choice.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#80 - 2012-06-13 10:43:23 UTC
But on the other side the Drakes will be easy to kill in fleet warfare and as such might potentially lag more at first but not for long...

It will take time to get people away from Fleet Drake habits, however if done right Drakes will be too short lived to be the cheap-fleet mainstay as it is right now, but in return be way more fun for roams and other small stuff :-)

Pinky