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Lasers, do they suck ****? Are they in the same category as blasters before their buff?
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Maxine Bellorum
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2012-04-18 21:48:34 UTC
Reduce base cap consumption by 25% then change cap based bonus to 5% tracking per level or armor resistance bonus depending on the role of said ship.
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-04-18 22:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kattshiro
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Lasers, in general, are the worst weapon system in game for various reasons I won't go in to.

Scorch however, is arguably the best ammo in game.

Lasers + Scorch go from subpar to very strong depending on ship sized, engagement ranges etc.

tldr: lasers suck, scorch doesn't.



You can do a search anything past 6 months to a year ago everyone says lasers were the best all around in the game. What changed? Lasers didnt rather hybrids did... (Which most people still say rails are gimp, and blaster boats still have range issues due to the nature of the ships.)

Why does everyone think lasers are gimp all of a sudden? If it's about stability or being neuted there are methods/rigs that help elevate that. Being neuted also impacts well everyone in some way just missiles and projectiles can keep firing while everything else is turned off.

Reminds me of when everyone said the drake was a gimp ship, and only good for pve... Nothing on the drake changed however people just found ways of fitting it or incorporating it differently.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2012-04-18 22:21:07 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Didn't know shield tank + Legion was possible? Shocked


You armor tank it.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-04-18 22:43:58 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
You armor tank it.


And then would have hard time finding a fleet. Easier to find a incursion fleet with Nightmare.

Shield tank is just better because it's easier for logis.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#85 - 2012-04-18 22:59:50 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
You armor tank it.


And then would have hard time finding a fleet. Easier to find a incursion fleet with Nightmare.

Shield tank is just better because it's easier for logis.


I thought armor legion/zealots was one of The Standard Shiny Fleets?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-04-18 23:24:27 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I thought armor legion/zealots was one of The Standard Shiny Fleets?


Most of the people look for shield fleets in incursion chat channel. I see maybe once every month one Guardian pilot in there and only few armor tanked fits. Of course experienced incursion runners say that they should go home and train for shields. A lot "LFSF Logi 5 Basilisk" spam.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2012-04-18 23:29:20 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I thought armor legion/zealots was one of The Standard Shiny Fleets?


Most of the people look for shield fleets in incursion chat channel. I see maybe once every month one Guardian pilot in there and only few armor tanked fits. Of course experienced incursion runners say that they should go home and train for shields. A lot "LFSF Logi 5 Basilisk" spam.

That's not the case, at all.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#88 - 2012-04-19 00:12:14 UTC
Legions in incursion is because they have excellent damage projection and like 700 scan res which makes them awesome in competing for sites.

Cambarus wrote:


Autocannons are not overpowered, nor are (most) minmatar ships, they simply have the ability to run more easily from bad engagements, which is why people like them (because not getting killed is more important than getting kills, and we have killboards to thank for that). Once you look past minmatar's ability to run, they are literally the worst race in the game for pvp, and no, capless, variable damage type weapons don't change that.

TBH I think you misinterpreted the post I made earlier, as its point was not to show that zealots are overpowered, but that they have a plethora of advantages over a vagabond, whose only real noteworthy ability is the ability to run away. There's nothing wrong with that, and the vaga isn't underpowered at all, but the point is if you focus solely on K/D ratios, the vaga LOOKS much more impressive than it actually is.


Trololololol. The current fitting doctrine is, " Do you have a worthwhile bonus on your weapons? No? Fit Autocannons" and "Do you have a spare high? Yes? Fit a Neut" which must say something about autocannons, and neuts gaining huge popularity makes life just that much harder for Amarr as you need a cap booster (on the most midslot-starved race) to deal with neuting as the guns take up so much cap. Selectable damage type is huge, have you tried shooting a T2 Minmatar ship with lazorz? Finally, the ability to fully select your targets is HUGE, it makes roaming around so much easier as you don't have to be very careful where you go, and if everything goes wrong and you're getting engaged and losing, you can always just disengage instead of taking a huge loss for no benefit.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#89 - 2012-04-19 01:37:44 UTC
Minmatar ships being able to pick their fights and disengage more easily than other ships has nothing to do with lasers. Lasers are a fine weapon system. They work well for the average, experienced Eve player.

The most important thing to most players is being able to survive the battle. For a solo player or small gang, that means being able to pick your fights and disengage when necessary. It also means being able to apply enough DPS to kill the other guy before his friends arrive.

For a larger battle, that means being able to have enough buffer to warp out or get repped up. It also means being able to pop someone before they can warp out or get repped.

If Amarr ships could pick their fights and disengage as easily as Minmatar ships, everyone would still be asking to nerf lasers and complaining about Scorch (the way they were six months-year ago). Lasers are fine.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#90 - 2012-04-19 03:45:00 UTC
Rails would like a word with you.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#91 - 2012-04-19 05:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
Some history on weapon changes to those new to EVE.
Its da cyycle of liiife as Elton John sings it.

2008 EM resist nerf. LASERS OP!!!! SCORCH RULES OK. BUFF PROJECTILES THEY ARE JUNK!!!!
*giant clicking sound as half of EVE changes skill training to Amarrr*
2009 Projectile buff (+dmg, switchable resist types). PROJECTILES LOLOL
*giant clicking sound as half of EVE changes skill training to Minmatar*
2012 Hybrid buff. HYBRID LOLOLOL HARPY/ENYO, RAILS
*giant clicking sound as AF pilots change skill training to Harpy/Enyo*
Yawn.

We have seen weapons rise and fall in favor and power, we will see it again.
Going ahead,
2012-2013 Ship rebalancing, this means possible changes in slot layout, weapon bonuses.
NET RESULT, SOMEONE IS GONNA SAY X OP!!!! BUFF Y NERF X!!!!

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#92 - 2012-04-19 07:00:00 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
Some history on weapon changes to those new to EVE.
Its da cyycle of liiife as Elton John sings it.

2008 EM resist nerf. LASERS OP!!!! SCORCH RULES OK. BUFF PROJECTILES THEY ARE JUNK!!!!
*giant clicking sound as half of EVE changes skill training to Amarrr*
2009 Projectile buff (+dmg, switchable resist types). PROJECTILES LOLOL
*giant clicking sound as half of EVE changes skill training to Minmatar*
2012 Hybrid buff. HYBRID LOLOLOL HARPY/ENYO, RAILS
*giant clicking sound as AF pilots change skill training to Harpy/Enyo*
Yawn.

We have seen weapons rise and fall in favor and power, we will see it again.


Aha. I always wondered what people were on about when they'd answer complaints about 'winmatar' with talk about how Amarr once were the FOTM. Turns out that they mean Minmatar have been the flavor of the last four years. It's like someone canned all the answers right after the projectile buff and we just haven't run out of cans, yet.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#93 - 2012-04-19 07:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Crellion
Kuehnelt wrote:
Darthewok wrote:
Some history on weapon changes to those new to EVE.
Its da cyycle of liiife as Elton John sings it.

2008 EM resist nerf. LASERS OP!!!! SCORCH RULES OK. BUFF PROJECTILES THEY ARE JUNK!!!!
*giant clicking sound as half of EVE changes skill training to Amarrr*
2009 Projectile buff (+dmg, switchable resist types). PROJECTILES LOLOL
*giant clicking sound as half of EVE changes skill training to Minmatar*
2012 Hybrid buff. HYBRID LOLOLOL HARPY/ENYO, RAILS
*giant clicking sound as AF pilots change skill training to Harpy/Enyo*
Yawn.

We have seen weapons rise and fall in favor and power, we will see it again.


Aha. I always wondered what people were on about when they'd answer complaints about 'winmatar' with talk about how Amarr once were the FOTM. Turns out that they mean Minmatar have been the flavor of the last four years. It's like someone canned all the answers right after the projectile buff and we just haven't run out of cans, yet.


Projectiles have indeed had their ups and downs as all weapon systems but winmattar is all about GFO Pr0 style and that has been a persistent quality at least since 2004-5... I believe since 2003 but might be wrong about that (dual props running at the same time and whatnot)

Ammar FOTM was up to when damage mods became stacking penalized and that was only a partial FOTM anyway ... bakc then people were more race limited than today...(EDIT to be precise when the way in which stacking penalties are applied changed)
Edward Longshanx
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#94 - 2012-04-19 07:56:55 UTC
Also, incursions aren't the answer to my original post. Yes, some people run them, great, but what if an Amarr pilot simply wants to set up shop in Jita and run level 4s near there with lasers? Everyone else can, but he can't. At least not effectively. What if an Amarr pilot wants to high sec scan in xeno space? Everyone else can, but not him, not optimally.

You see my point. Saying incursions are the solution to a non-variable damage weapon is like saying Nicholas Cage is a good actor because he was in The Rock. I mean great, that movie was awesome, but otherwise he is a bad actor.

Shooting lasers is like being Nicholas Cage.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2012-04-19 08:17:30 UTC
Confirming that I am, in fact, Nicholas Cage, and I do, in fact, play EVE Online.

Send me all your ISK.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2012-04-19 08:19:12 UTC
or you can run missions in laser rat space. or you can do wormholes, etc. point is, lasers have their pluses and minuses in pve.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-04-19 08:31:24 UTC
Crellion wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
Darthewok wrote:
Some history on weapon changes to those new to EVE.
Its da cyycle of liiife as Elton John sings it.

2008 EM resist nerf. LASERS OP!!!! SCORCH RULES OK. BUFF PROJECTILES THEY ARE JUNK!!!!
*giant clicking sound as half of EVE changes skill training to Amarrr*
2009 Projectile buff (+dmg, switchable resist types). PROJECTILES LOLOL
*giant clicking sound as half of EVE changes skill training to Minmatar*
2012 Hybrid buff. HYBRID LOLOLOL HARPY/ENYO, RAILS
*giant clicking sound as AF pilots change skill training to Harpy/Enyo*
Yawn.

We have seen weapons rise and fall in favor and power, we will see it again.


Aha. I always wondered what people were on about when they'd answer complaints about 'winmatar' with talk about how Amarr once were the FOTM. Turns out that they mean Minmatar have been the flavor of the last four years. It's like someone canned all the answers right after the projectile buff and we just haven't run out of cans, yet.


Projectiles have indeed had their ups and downs as all weapon systems but winmattar is all about GFO Pr0 style and that has been a persistent quality at least since 2004-5... I believe since 2003 but might be wrong about that (dual props running at the same time and whatnot)

Ammar FOTM was up to when damage mods became stacking penalized and that was only a partial FOTM anyway ... bakc then people were more race limited than today...(EDIT to be precise when the way in which stacking penalties are applied changed)


If you go back even further, Gallente had their time in the sun before drone number and bandwidth nerfs.
But yes, 2009 projectile buff impact was unusually huge for a weapon buff.
Before the buff, extremely minmatar good hulls like hurricane, vagabond made up for the lousiness of projeciles.
After the buff, add good weapons to great hulls and you get the present winmatar whines.
However, I expect other races will be balanced over the next 2 years, probably via hull changes rather than through weapons.
Cross train and reduce emo at the ups and downs.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2012-04-19 08:35:52 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Laser advantages over missiles: Hit instantly, higher range than unguided missiles, higher DPS than guided missiles, instant reload, infinite T1 ammo
Laser advantages over projectiles: Significantly higher optimal, more variable ammo range, instant reload, infinite T1 ammo
Laser advantages over hybrids: Higher range than blasters, higher DPS than railguns, instant reload, infinite T1 ammo

Laser disadvantages: High capacitor use, fixed EM/Therm damage, low tracking

The capacitor use and tracking seem to be the more pressing disadvantages to me. The ship bonuses to capacitor use help but they don't really make a whole lot of sense.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#99 - 2012-04-19 11:01:28 UTC
Edward Longshanx wrote:
What if an Amarr pilot wants to high sec scan in xeno space? Everyone else can, but not him, not optimally.


Las0rs work fine in Xenon space (if you have enough... re-eng. PALCs are top for me). They are best for dealing with Ns, Ms, Ls and Ps but if need be they will take out Qs, Ks and Js without too much hassle... At least in vanilla X3... what mods are you running?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-04-19 11:05:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Mfume Apocal wrote:
or you can run missions in laser rat space. or you can do wormholes, etc. point is, lasers have their pluses and minuses in pve.


I originally started in Amarr space. I knew few players living in Caldari space. Got annoyed by many griefers so I decided to move somewhere else. Guess what that place was? Yeah, you guessed right. Low SP Amarr pilot missioning in Caldari space. Do you even know how difficult it is? "Keep training skills. It will get better when you can use T2 lasers." The truth is it doesn't. One of the first things I learned was not to crosstrain too soon. For me too soon was before getting T2 lasers. Now people keep repeating "train all weapons systems". Of course I've since trained to use hybrids and some of the T2 projectile guns. And I can effectively fly shield or armor Canes. But it took over a year to get to this point. And I haven't even started with missiles yet.

Point is that it's not always easy to just choose where you do pve content. I didn't have a choice.