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Buy Sell game mechanics flawed
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Fan Li
Da Bears Da Bulls
#61 - 2012-04-17 23:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Fan Li
Kara Books wrote:
As for code, It trully needs to be improved,

-Im in particular favor for Changing how the Broker works in game,
-On another thread I noticed some one would like to have the ability to buy from any sell order, I.E. pay more but avoid buying the lowest priced item .01 if one wishes, penny wars are annoying and can only favor boting


I think the broker could use some work as well.

In regards to your other point...I think this would throw economic equilibrium out of whack completely as it would deincentivize activity for traders, as their hard work is for naught if they have no control over buys, sells and liquidity. How would you see this fleshing out?

If that's your concern, I think they just need to kill more bots. There's been a remarkable reduction in the 0.01 isk wars of recent past compared to my prior years on the market.

We've all fat fingered things before...is there some reason we need to institute more regulations/rules and not just regulate ourselves by checking our orders instead of having safety nets? I want less rules in my sandbox.
Adunh Slavy
#62 - 2012-04-17 23:23:41 UTC
Fan Li wrote:

So...suggest something better than just "bad code" and "excuses" if you're upset, as the scores before you have done nothing but whine as well.



I have, and I get met with BS, so I throw it right back. Don't like it? Too bad.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#63 - 2012-04-17 23:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
Fan Li wrote:
Kara Books wrote:
As for code, It trully needs to be improved,

-Im in particular favor for Changing how the Broker works in game,
-On another thread I noticed some one would like to have the ability to buy from any sell order, I.E. pay more but avoid buying the lowest priced item .01 if one wishes, penny wars are annoying and can only favor boting


I think the broker could use some work as well.

In regards to your other point...I think this would throw economic equilibrium out of whack completely as it would deincentivize activity for traders, as their hard work is for naught if they have no control over buys, sells and liquidity. How would you see this fleshing out?

If that's your concern, I think they just need to kill more bots. There's been a remarkable reduction in the 0.01 isk wars of recent past compared to my prior years on the market.

We've all fat fingered things before...is there some reason we need to institute more regulations/rules and not just regulate ourselves by checking our orders instead of having safety nets? I want less rules in my sandbox.


I have to agree with you on almost everything, but we dont need to be forced to use any of the new functions, an option to remove the warning would actually remove some of the sandbox already in place.

as for sell orders, Perhaps there is something to be said about people who Merchant ALL of the time, multiple characters, hours and hours per day, compared to some one who logs in for 30 min a day, ups their prices by 100K for each item and logs off, Yes those players deserve far less then the people who toil for hours figuring out future's and keeping their orders up to date all of the time, personally I would avoid selling or buying from the 30 min 100K isk orders.

When I started, I also played the .01 ISK game didnt have more then 80 or so market slots, played it hard, 2 months later, I burned out, I couldn't do it any more, I found other means of making ISK on the market without having to be there every second of the day, I chose other regions, I transported goods from region to region, I even experimented on turning Key systems into little tiny hubs of my own, Iv even blockade ran goods into nulsec NPC stations with characters working off of 45 market slots!, in the end after all of that, I truly believe, the changes I propose need a bit more work, but the direction is absolutely correct.
Fan Li
Da Bears Da Bulls
#64 - 2012-04-17 23:52:35 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
Fan Li wrote:
Kara Books wrote:
As for code, It trully needs to be improved,

-Im in particular favor for Changing how the Broker works in game,
-On another thread I noticed some one would like to have the ability to buy from any sell order, I.E. pay more but avoid buying the lowest priced item .01 if one wishes, penny wars are annoying and can only favor boting


I think the broker could use some work as well.

In regards to your other point...I think this would throw economic equilibrium out of whack completely as it would deincentivize activity for traders, as their hard work is for naught if they have no control over buys, sells and liquidity. How would you see this fleshing out?

If that's your concern, I think they just need to kill more bots. There's been a remarkable reduction in the 0.01 isk wars of recent past compared to my prior years on the market.

We've all fat fingered things before...is there some reason we need to institute more regulations/rules and not just regulate ourselves by checking our orders instead of having safety nets? I want less rules in my sandbox.


I have to agree with you on almost everything, but we dont need to be forced to use any of the new functions, an option to remove the warning would actually remove some of the sandbox already in place.

as for sell orders, Perhaps there is something to be said about people who Merchant ALL of the time, multiple characters, hours and hours per day, compared to some one who logs in for 30 min a day, ups their prices by 100K for each item and logs off, Yes those players deserve far less then the people who toil for hours figuring out future's and keeping their orders up to date all of the time, personally I would avoid selling or buying from the 30 min 100K isk orders.

When I started, I also played the .01 ISK game didnt have more then 80 or so market slots, played it hard, 2 months later, I burned out, I couldn't do it any more, I found other means of making ISK on the market without having to be there every second of the day, I chose other regions, I transported goods from region to region, I even experimented on turning Key systems into little tiny hubs of my own, Iv even blockade ran goods into nulsec NPC stations with characters working off of 45 market slots!, in the end after all of that, I truly believe, the changes I propose need a bit more work, but the direction is absolutely correct.


Of course they need work, but they are a good start to well constructed ideas. It's pretty rare to have a completely workable idea on the first go around :D Discussion forums are great for discussing ideas, as long as you learn to squelch the noise from the trolololols.

The warning system is garbage, yes...THAT is bad code (**** off Adunh! ;p)...but I would highly recommend avoiding relying on safety nets and be more thorough and act with more intent when you trade. I play the high volume station trading game, but I've grown used to it and it's quick. Speculations are fun too, but I find I have liquidity problems when I go about dumping a large sum and waiting for the profit-taking time....so I station trade to keep my cash position viable.

Until a better idea is implemented, we have what we have...which seems to be what we've had for a long time...so probably better to learn to work with it than be upset and get shafted because of it. I learned my lesson in the beginning....and since...have likely made all that money back from OTHER people fat fingering their orders in my benefit. Happens quite regularly actually... :) Just gotta figure out the best method for yourself until the regulators mount up.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#65 - 2012-04-18 01:37:46 UTC
Fan Li wrote:
Kara Books wrote:
Fan Li wrote:
Kara Books wrote:
As for code, It trully needs to be improved,

-Im in particular favor for Changing how the Broker works in game,
-On another thread I noticed some one would like to have the ability to buy from any sell order, I.E. pay more but avoid buying the lowest priced item .01 if one wishes, penny wars are annoying and can only favor boting


I think the broker could use some work as well.

In regards to your other point...I think this would throw economic equilibrium out of whack completely as it would deincentivize activity for traders, as their hard work is for naught if they have no control over buys, sells and liquidity. How would you see this fleshing out?

If that's your concern, I think they just need to kill more bots. There's been a remarkable reduction in the 0.01 isk wars of recent past compared to my prior years on the market.

We've all fat fingered things before...is there some reason we need to institute more regulations/rules and not just regulate ourselves by checking our orders instead of having safety nets? I want less rules in my sandbox.


I have to agree with you on almost everything, but we dont need to be forced to use any of the new functions, an option to remove the warning would actually remove some of the sandbox already in place.

as for sell orders, Perhaps there is something to be said about people who Merchant ALL of the time, multiple characters, hours and hours per day, compared to some one who logs in for 30 min a day, ups their prices by 100K for each item and logs off, Yes those players deserve far less then the people who toil for hours figuring out future's and keeping their orders up to date all of the time, personally I would avoid selling or buying from the 30 min 100K isk orders.

When I started, I also played the .01 ISK game didnt have more then 80 or so market slots, played it hard, 2 months later, I burned out, I couldn't do it any more, I found other means of making ISK on the market without having to be there every second of the day, I chose other regions, I transported goods from region to region, I even experimented on turning Key systems into little tiny hubs of my own, Iv even blockade ran goods into nulsec NPC stations with characters working off of 45 market slots!, in the end after all of that, I truly believe, the changes I propose need a bit more work, but the direction is absolutely correct.


Of course they need work, but they are a good start to well constructed ideas. It's pretty rare to have a completely workable idea on the first go around :D Discussion forums are great for discussing ideas, as long as you learn to squelch the noise from the trolololols.

The warning system is garbage, yes...THAT is bad code (**** off Adunh! ;p)...but I would highly recommend avoiding relying on safety nets and be more thorough and act with more intent when you trade. I play the high volume station trading game, but I've grown used to it and it's quick. Speculations are fun too, but I find I have liquidity problems when I go about dumping a large sum and waiting for the profit-taking time....so I station trade to keep my cash position viable.

Until a better idea is implemented, we have what we have...which seems to be what we've had for a long time...so probably better to learn to work with it than be upset and get shafted because of it. I learned my lesson in the beginning....and since...have likely made all that money back from OTHER people fat fingering their orders in my benefit. Happens quite regularly actually... :) Just gotta figure out the best method for yourself until the regulators mount up.


Yes the trolling is rather unwelcome, its not even funny.

The idea's can come from regular players, from what I understand CCP has a history of listening to its players and their final improvements are 99.99% of the time, very welcome when it comes to final patch time.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-04-18 09:45:30 UTC
The market works (mostly) fine

The easiest way not to spend a billion isk on a Cerebus is to check the numbers you typed with your own fingers before you click OK

This game doesnt need any more 'ARE YOU SURE' popups, lord knows the carebears have got enough of those in space, we dont need them in station

If i can reduce the argument against the OP into a single sentence it would be this;

"If you find that a given activity is too difficult for you, practise it more, dont ask for the bar to be lowered to your level."

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#67 - 2012-04-18 09:54:34 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
The market works (mostly) fine

The easiest way not to spend a billion isk on a Cerebus is to check the numbers you typed with your own fingers before you click OK

This game doesnt need any more 'ARE YOU SURE' popups, lord knows the carebears have got enough of those in space, we dont need them in station

If i can reduce the argument against the OP into a single sentence it would be this;

"If you find that a given activity is too difficult for you, practise it more, dont ask for the bar to be lowered to your level."


Can you clarify this "bar" for us noobie traders?
Johnny Frecko
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-04-18 09:59:22 UTC
Kara Books wrote:



Can you clarify this "bar" for us noobie traders?


entering the right amount, price, range and length of an order.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#69 - 2012-04-18 10:06:40 UTC
OP really needs to learn to 'deal with it'

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#70 - 2012-04-18 10:47:02 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
OP really needs to learn to 'deal with it'


Yes I know its an awesome corp name =)
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-04-18 10:48:28 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
OP really needs to learn to 'deal with it'


Yes I know its an awesome corp name =)


so sad that you are having a hard time dealing with it in this thread

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#72 - 2012-04-18 10:59:53 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
Kara Books wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
OP really needs to learn to 'deal with it'


Yes I know its an awesome corp name =)


so sad that you are having a hard time dealing with it in this thread


Dont be a waste, contribute, or learn to troll.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-04-18 11:20:33 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
Kara Books wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
OP really needs to learn to 'deal with it'


Yes I know its an awesome corp name =)


so sad that you are having a hard time dealing with it in this thread


Dont be a waste, contribute, or learn to troll.


I already did contribute.

I told you to stop being such a carebear asking CCP to hold your hand with the market because you bought a Cerb for a billion isk

If i accidentally bought a Cerberus for a bil isk, the first thing i WOULDNT do is make a forum post about why this is CCP's fault and not my own.

Accept your responsibility, it was your mistake and your fault

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#74 - 2012-04-18 11:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
Skippermonkey wrote:
Kara Books wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
Kara Books wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
OP really needs to learn to 'deal with it'


Yes I know its an awesome corp name =)


so sad that you are having a hard time dealing with it in this thread


Dont be a waste, contribute, or learn to troll.


I already did contribute.

I told you to stop being such a carebear asking CCP to hold your hand with the market because you bought a Cerb for a billion isk

If i accidentally bought a Cerberus for a bil isk, the first thing i WOULDNT do is make a forum post about why this is CCP's fault and not my own.

Accept your responsibility, it was your mistake and your fault


weak,
your still here.

On a positive note, I finally got the pixilation out of my 2nd display, your whining actually contributed to my progress, as I inspected every single letter, with every setting change.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-04-18 11:46:11 UTC
Kara Books wrote:

weak,
your still here.

I expect your forum resignation letter on my desk within the hour

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Adunh Slavy
#76 - 2012-04-18 14:48:43 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:

"If you find that a given activity is too difficult for you, practise it more, dont ask for the bar to be lowered to your level."



Eve is hard right, so you've kept your auto-target back enabled, right? Or did you turn it off?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-04-18 15:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Barakach
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Barakach wrote:

Code != design



If your design is not good, then any code to support that design is also not good. Guns that are designed to fire backwards are bad guns. They work perfectly for what they are designed to do however.


The quality of code is 100% determined on how well it reflects the intents of the design.

Example. Someone can make quality code for malware. The end user won't like it because they can't remove it, but the code is still good as it's doing what it was intended to do.

P.S. I noticed the OP changed the title, so this argument is already over. I won't argue it anymore.
Adunh Slavy
#78 - 2012-04-18 15:39:02 UTC
Barakach wrote:

The quality of code is 100% determined on how well it reflects the intents of the design.

Example. Someone can make quality code for malware. The end user won't like it because they can't remove it, but the code is still good as it's doing what it was intended to do.


To compare Eve's market to malware, isn't exactly a strong position.

This constant playing with the context of words is childish. If a design is bad, and customers don't like it, then any code in support of the design is useless, it is bad. Lock the tree and make a new branch. It is bad.

You can play with the context of "bad" all you want, doesn't change anything.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#79 - 2012-04-19 00:30:36 UTC
Barakach wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Barakach wrote:

Code != design



If your design is not good, then any code to support that design is also not good. Guns that are designed to fire backwards are bad guns. They work perfectly for what they are designed to do however.


The quality of code is 100% determined on how well it reflects the intents of the design.

Example. Someone can make quality code for malware. The end user won't like it because they can't remove it, but the code is still good as it's doing what it was intended to do.

P.S. I noticed the OP changed the title, so this argument is already over. I won't argue it anymore.


What was the title? because I cant seem to recall changing it