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Buy Sell game mechanics flawed
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Adunh Slavy
#41 - 2012-04-16 22:07:43 UTC
Kalea Hashur wrote:

More excuses



Sure, if someone wants to do something silly for some reason, then by all means allow the silly option as well. There is no harm in allowing the default behavior to act as a limit order.

Excuses of allowing the silly order, or because the current method were simpler to code are just that, excuses.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
GreenSeed
#42 - 2012-04-17 02:10:35 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
corestwo wrote:
I'd love to read the text of your petition. "CCP THE MARKET SYSTEM WHICH HAS WORKED THIS WAY FOR YEARS IS BUGGED!"


Oh I bet you would.

P.S.

Also forgot to add, the Market history tab is Not accurate, It does not report all items being sold LOW I.E. .01 isk and High-ball sales.


and thats a bad thing how?

...


anyway you wont get your money back, its your mistake. and please dont be so full of yourself when you post, its really annoying and only a few on this forums can pull it off.
Zarific
Frekmacinations
#43 - 2012-04-17 03:41:50 UTC
Bath Sheeba wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Barakach wrote:

Excuses



CCP decides to do something else, something unexpected from the way the rest of the world approaches such things. Don't mess with user expectations - doing that is stupid design, it is bad code.


"Click Exit to enter" ... that's not bad code, it was just simpler to type exit because there is one less character.


Hmmmm, I suppose on XP the "Clisk the START button to shutdown" also bothered you?

This is not bad code. This may be a poor design decision, but the code works correctly.

Think of it like this:
I walk into a farmer's market and see several vendors selling eggs.
first one: 3 dozen for $3 each
second one: 1 dozen for $3.25 each
third one: 4 dozen for $3.35 each

I want 8 dozen. I could go to each one and say I will buy your eggs at your price or I could just yell to all three "I will buy all your eggs at 3.35 each"
If I choose the latter, do you think the guy selling for $3 each is going to say, "oh no I could never sell my eggs for 3.35!"
Nope. He will happily take the greater price.

Same here.


The problem with your example is that you are the one buying eggs. In Eve I pay another guy to go buy my stuff. It's called a broker. If I called up my broker and said "Snatch up any goog stock up to 250k total that falls under 650." and the price is at 648 and he still pays 650, I'm going to fire him.

The point of paying the broker is that you SHOULD be able to tell him "I need 8 dozen eggs. Go get them for me at the best price." and he actually does the mini transactions for you. 3 dozen for 3 1 dozen for 325 and 4 dozen for 335, rather than 8 dozen for 335. I'd fire that broker too.

The broker in eve, however, is useless and doesn't do his job. And we are not permitted to fire him.

That part SHOULD be "fixed", "updated", "enhanced", whatever you want to call it. As is, it is just a bad feature.
D Program
#44 - 2012-04-17 10:43:04 UTC
Limiting orders is again another way of dumbing down the game.

The system should be free and dynamic. The system should not have borders. Players should be able to use their skills to make profit or their stupidness to lose stuff.

What is this sorcery?

http://www.eve-cost.eu
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#45 - 2012-04-17 10:54:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
Zarific wrote:
Bath Sheeba wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Barakach wrote:

Excuses



CCP decides to do something else, something unexpected from the way the rest of the world approaches such things. Don't mess with user expectations - doing that is stupid design, it is bad code.


"Click Exit to enter" ... that's not bad code, it was just simpler to type exit because there is one less character.


Hmmmm, I suppose on XP the "Clisk the START button to shutdown" also bothered you?

This is not bad code. This may be a poor design decision, but the code works correctly.

Think of it like this:
I walk into a farmer's market and see several vendors selling eggs.
first one: 3 dozen for $3 each
second one: 1 dozen for $3.25 each
third one: 4 dozen for $3.35 each

I want 8 dozen. I could go to each one and say I will buy your eggs at your price or I could just yell to all three "I will buy all your eggs at 3.35 each"
If I choose the latter, do you think the guy selling for $3 each is going to say, "oh no I could never sell my eggs for 3.35!"
Nope. He will happily take the greater price.

Same here.


The problem with your example is that you are the one buying eggs. In Eve I pay another guy to go buy my stuff. It's called a broker. If I called up my broker and said "Snatch up any goog stock up to 250k total that falls under 650." and the price is at 648 and he still pays 650, I'm going to fire him.

The point of paying the broker is that you SHOULD be able to tell him "I need 8 dozen eggs. Go get them for me at the best price." and he actually does the mini transactions for you. 3 dozen for 3 1 dozen for 325 and 4 dozen for 335, rather than 8 dozen for 335. I'd fire that broker too.

The broker in eve, however, is useless and doesn't do his job. And we are not permitted to fire him.

That part SHOULD be "fixed", "updated", "enhanced", whatever you want to call it. As is, it is just a bad feature.



That is an incredibly interesting comment, Brokers, adding interesting NPC brokers to the game, ones who would help watch over your ISK or something to that power.
Man I would be thrilled to see something so simple but awesome added to the market aspect of the game.

If I could triple like your post, I would.
Adunh Slavy
#46 - 2012-04-17 15:38:00 UTC
D Program wrote:
Limiting orders is again another way of dumbing down the game.



Bull Pie. Dumb is what it is doing now.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-04-17 16:22:26 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Lauren Hellfury wrote:
You're assuming that it wasn't a design decision.


Stupid design doesn't make bad code good.



Code != design

If the code is accurately doing what the design says to do, then the code is perfect. The difference between a "feature" and a "bug".

I remember when Ford had an issue where a front wheel could fall off their SUV while driving. After they looked into it, there was nothing wrong with the wheel, it was something wrong with the design of the wheel.

In other words, working as expected, from the engineer's view point.


I am not arguing if it's a bad design, as I do agree it's a stupid mechanic that serves no real purpose that I can think of currently.
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#48 - 2012-04-17 16:50:37 UTC
This is an issue that exists in the real world too. Know what happens?

Brokers.

10:02am: Person A puts up a buy order at 20isk.
10:05am: Person B puts up a sell order at 22isk.

Person A pays 20isk.
Person B receives 20isk.

Broker walks away with 2isk.

The person placing a sub-optimum order should have the order filled at the sub-optimum price, as it currently does. That punishes laziness, as it should. BUT, the pre-existing order should go through at the pre-existing order's price, which it currently does not. The difference should be destroyed, and thus become an isk sink.

My problem isn't with what happened to the op, that part is functioning correctly.
Bath Sheeba
Another Success Story
#49 - 2012-04-17 18:25:36 UTC
Zarific wrote:
Bath Sheeba wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Barakach wrote:

Excuses



CCP decides to do something else, something unexpected from the way the rest of the world approaches such things. Don't mess with user expectations - doing that is stupid design, it is bad code.


"Click Exit to enter" ... that's not bad code, it was just simpler to type exit because there is one less character.


Hmmmm, I suppose on XP the "Clisk the START button to shutdown" also bothered you?

This is not bad code. This may be a poor design decision, but the code works correctly.

Think of it like this:
I walk into a farmer's market and see several vendors selling eggs.
first one: 3 dozen for $3 each
second one: 1 dozen for $3.25 each
third one: 4 dozen for $3.35 each

I want 8 dozen. I could go to each one and say I will buy your eggs at your price or I could just yell to all three "I will buy all your eggs at 3.35 each"
If I choose the latter, do you think the guy selling for $3 each is going to say, "oh no I could never sell my eggs for 3.35!"
Nope. He will happily take the greater price.

Same here.


The problem with your example is that you are the one buying eggs. In Eve I pay another guy to go buy my stuff. It's called a broker. If I called up my broker and said "Snatch up any goog stock up to 250k total that falls under 650." and the price is at 648 and he still pays 650, I'm going to fire him.

The point of paying the broker is that you SHOULD be able to tell him "I need 8 dozen eggs. Go get them for me at the best price." and he actually does the mini transactions for you. 3 dozen for 3 1 dozen for 325 and 4 dozen for 335, rather than 8 dozen for 335. I'd fire that broker too.

The broker in eve, however, is useless and doesn't do his job. And we are not permitted to fire him.

That part SHOULD be "fixed", "updated", "enhanced", whatever you want to call it. As is, it is just a bad feature.





OK, I have a suggestion for you to alleviate this:
Hire another player to be your broker. This is what happens in real life, yes?

I mean this is dead simple. If you need x of an item at the cheapest price, then pay someone to do the market pvp for you, and viola! problem solved.
Adunh Slavy
#50 - 2012-04-17 20:23:18 UTC
Bath Sheeba wrote:

OK, I have a suggestion for you to alleviate this:
Hire another player to be your broker. This is what happens in real life, yes?

I mean this is dead simple. If you need x of an item at the cheapest price, then pay someone to do the market pvp for you, and viola! problem solved.



I didn't know they sold pot in Jita. How much have you smoked?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Bath Sheeba
Another Success Story
#51 - 2012-04-17 20:33:47 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Bath Sheeba wrote:

OK, I have a suggestion for you to alleviate this:
Hire another player to be your broker. This is what happens in real life, yes?

I mean this is dead simple. If you need x of an item at the cheapest price, then pay someone to do the market pvp for you, and viola! problem solved.



I didn't know they sold pot in Jita. How much have you smoked?



Huh, so far in this thread if someone disagrees with you, you resort to ad hominem attacks.

Why so much hostility?
Fan Li
Da Bears Da Bulls
#52 - 2012-04-17 21:12:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Fan Li
Bath Sheeba wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Bath Sheeba wrote:

OK, I have a suggestion for you to alleviate this:
Hire another player to be your broker. This is what happens in real life, yes?

I mean this is dead simple. If you need x of an item at the cheapest price, then pay someone to do the market pvp for you, and viola! problem solved.



I didn't know they sold pot in Jita. How much have you smoked?



Huh, so far in this thread if someone disagrees with you, you resort to ad hominem attacks.

Why so much hostility?


Bitterness, probably.

@Adunh: Welcome to the market...if you can't handle the market pvp, or just dont want to, hire someone to do it for you. The market has been working like that for some time now :) Check your orders before you hit enter...problem solved. Forum search would also help your woes, as this has been discussed ad nauseum.

Though I've never heard of anyone getting their money back...good luck with your petition. No sarcasm.
Adunh Slavy
#53 - 2012-04-17 22:02:25 UTC
Bath Sheeba wrote:

Huh, so far in this thread if someone disagrees with you, you resort to ad hominem attacks.

Why so much hostility?



Why so much hostility to a simple design change?

And for taking offense, if you don't like it, don't do it.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Adunh Slavy
#54 - 2012-04-17 22:04:31 UTC
Fan Li wrote:

Bitterness, probably.

@Adunh: Welcome to the market...if you can't handle the market pvp, or just dont want to, hire someone to do it for you. The market has been working like that for some time now :) Check your orders before you hit enter...problem solved. Forum search would also help your woes, as this has been discussed ad nauseum.

Though I've never heard of anyone getting their money back...good luck with your petition. No sarcasm.


Oh look, another person defending a stupid design.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Fan Li
Da Bears Da Bulls
#55 - 2012-04-17 22:23:38 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Fan Li wrote:

Bitterness, probably.

@Adunh: Welcome to the market...if you can't handle the market pvp, or just dont want to, hire someone to do it for you. The market has been working like that for some time now :) Check your orders before you hit enter...problem solved. Forum search would also help your woes, as this has been discussed ad nauseum.

Though I've never heard of anyone getting their money back...good luck with your petition. No sarcasm.


Oh look, another person defending a stupid design.


PEBKAC != stupid design.

You might have more meaningful discussion if you stop your mouth before you quip...as someone mentioned earlier.
Adunh Slavy
#56 - 2012-04-17 22:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
Barakach wrote:

Code != design



If your design is not good, then any code to support that design is also not good. Guns that are designed to fire backwards are bad guns. They work perfectly for what they are designed to do however.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Adunh Slavy
#57 - 2012-04-17 23:00:52 UTC
Fan Li wrote:

You might have more meaningful discussion if you stop your mouth before you quip...as someone mentioned earlier.



Maybe I don't care to have a meaningful discussion with a bunch of toadstools that do all they can to support a crap.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#58 - 2012-04-17 23:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
Bath Sheeba wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Bath Sheeba wrote:

OK, I have a suggestion for you to alleviate this:
Hire another player to be your broker. This is what happens in real life, yes?

I mean this is dead simple. If you need x of an item at the cheapest price, then pay someone to do the market pvp for you, and viola! problem solved.



I didn't know they sold pot in Jita. How much have you smoked?



Huh, so far in this thread if someone disagrees with you, you resort to ad hominem attacks.

Why so much hostility?


Hostility is in a form, resistance, Slavy speaks his mind, the truth, this tends to be frowned upon here on eve forums.

As far as I see it, there are people who have distinct reputations and renown, their words actually mean something, we can tell for certain there is a human, single personality behind the Slavy's online character.


Speaking of trolling, I read a nice story on how some one back in 2003 used 25 some odd characters, on the forums to scam people out of their ISK by having conversations with himself, perhaps you should get back to work, whoever you are, bath I dont know.
Fan Li
Da Bears Da Bulls
#59 - 2012-04-17 23:10:28 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Fan Li wrote:

You might have more meaningful discussion if you stop your mouth before you quip...as someone mentioned earlier.



Maybe I don't care to have a meaningful discussion with a bunch of toadstools that do all they can to support a crap.


I'm not supporting it, I'm just stating that it's a well known, long time thing, and has been acknowledged to be PEBKAC by CCP.

So...suggest something better than just "bad code" and "excuses" if you're upset, as the scores before you have done nothing but whine as well.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#60 - 2012-04-17 23:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
As for code, It trully needs to be improved,

-Im in particular favor for Changing how the Broker works in game,
-On another thread I noticed some one would like to have the ability to buy from any sell order, I.E. pay more but avoid buying the lowest priced item .01 if one wishes, penny wars are annoying and can only favor boting

(Edit part)
-This may still need more working but this may be the right direction.
in other words, we can give a little and take a little, by implementing both changes, the code doesn't have to be complicated, I.E. start with giving users the ability to buy from any sell order, sell to any buy order and to turn off, or on the function where it warns the player before making a final market order live, for starters at-least.