Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Yeah, I kinda hit that too...

Was she for, or against, cloaking as it is now?

Ahh, lunch... finally get to catch up :)


Didn't really address this last night, but what it comes down to is that turtled in a POS, they're still visible. You can also gain intel you can possibly use against them. Are they already in warp by the time you load grid, and always go to the same POS (assuming there are multiple choices)? Good chance you've found a bot... perfect opportunity to practice your grid-fu, bubbles, and blazing fiery death! Do they warp to the tower after an appropriately human amount of time, then switch out for a combat ship and wait for reinforcements? You might have a fun target. At any rate, you can choose to watch them sit in that tower, but they can't watch you.


Read through your wall a couple of times, and maybe it's just the boredom of having had to watch vendors all morning instead of using my own brain, but I'm not sure I'm following 100%. On the first part, see above. To the second, I've been caught using those tactics myself (usually because of complacency), but they require (at the very least) that the cloaker actually be doing something rather than just picking their nose. Moving to the third, I think I see where you're going, but I don't think it'll play out as you propose, mostly because (as you say the next time down) having a broadcast-in-local warning needs to be part of this module, but also because even though the new tier 3 BC's can lock faster than a BS, their tracking sucks harder than Ganth's blue balls (sorry, couldn't resist :)) I'll ponder the ramifications of having a button-pushing scout flying ahead, but having taken part in IRON infrastructure projects (aka freighter fleet escort), I'm not sure that it would really be worth the bother. I'm also against cloaking fuel, though in my case I'd be using an expanded+rigged Iteron V as the tender. ::evil grin::


No, I'm referring toward the folks who just scream 'GTFO' and crap like that. Anyways, I think that for the most part, we agree that cloaking, in its current form, is mostly ok. The only place we seem to disagree on is the inability for a local resident to prosecute with violence those who use cloaking as a meta-gaming tactic. I don't want to hurt/punish those who use cloaking as a hunting tactic (which I believe is what you do), only those who use it as meta-gaming crap against renters and pets who can't do anything about it when the landlord is taking part in some big fight two regions away. As has been pointed out, an alliance as large as Goonswarm can just bridge a couple of hops and find an empty system. A renter (a quick glance at dotlan suggests "SQUEE." would probably qualify) doesn't have that option.

Regarding the CSM minutes... yup... I'll believe it when I see it in a devblog. I also see things playing out pretty much the same way... small roams would be pretty much unaffected. Larger roams, meh. Persistent attacks, well, after rolling safes for N minutes, they've got 2N (minimum) in which to relax. Again, active hunting cloakers shouldn't be punished, and after evading probes for a while, they deserve a break. I want to be able to disrupt economic activity, but only by putting more effort into it than entering the system, warping to some safe spot, and cloaking up for 23 hours.


I'd also support a semi-nerfing of the "local as an intel tool" mechanic if a viable anti-cloak were implemented. See previous post regarding ghost timers and multiple cloakies doing some active head-screwing. However, I've seen no "goonie trolling skillz" coming from Ganth. He may be a goon, and some of his replies aren't carebear friendly, but compared to others he's a pretty straight shooter, and as I noted, he's been dropping nuggets the bears can use for self-preservation.

Ok, here is a two part bit I am suggesting, feel free to criticize if done constructively.

Part 1; The trade off.
Dump at least cloaked ships out of local. They don't belong there unless they want to be seen, and they can chatter away if that's the case.
Enable an auto-cycle of the D-Scan, with the following details:
It can detect if a cloaked vessel enters it's range, but cannot determine location or number.
It shuts off when you enter warp.
It shuts off when you do a system change, by any means.
One exception, the ships designed to probe are able to have it run nonstop even when warping. (This would include any ship with bonuses to probing)

Part 2; Hunt the hunters.
Use probes designed to hunt cloaked ships. Specialty item, T2.
The probes can decloak ships by either proximity, or by getting on grid with ships they have tracked, and pulsing an inverted energy wave to the cloaked vessel's power frequency. The cloaked vessel cannot reengage their cloak until they get off grid with the probe.
Stopping them is the hunter's problem. The probe just creates an opportunity if used right.
(Gate camps won't find this very useful, as probing down the newly arrived cloaked vessel will allow the vessel in question to leave before it completes.)

I mean, I suppose, although when you consider that the majority of cloaked ganking ships don't fit covert cloaks (recons and bombers can't really kill very much solo), it's easy to locate "cloakers" whenever they move around. In the case of recons and bombers, well, yeah, you can't see them scouting you, but that's literally their role in the game-- they give up tanking ability, dps ability, etc in exchange for their covops cloaks. I really don't think there's anything wrong with these ships being able to do this.



This is where I guess I just disagree with you. As long as local and the friends list stay as-is, meta-gaming is often the only way for solo attackers or small gangs to kill anything in hostile space. As long as carebears know that you're there and active, they're simply not going to let themselves be targeted (first they form a huge gang that the attacker can't fight, and if that doesn't work within about an hour, they usually dock up / log off / go AFK in a tower).

Now, if you took local away and made the friends list require mutual consent to watchlist people, I'd be OK with inserting cloak-hunting mechanics. That said, I think this would be a terrible idea because it would make things too easy for gankers. Why, then, am I not advocating this change? It's not because I want "fairer fights," because I don't care about fights being fair. It's simply that I don't think there would *be* any fights if these changes were made. 0.0 would simply become too risky. It's already the case that you can make almost the same money in empire as you can in nullsec, and indeed lots of nullsec "residents" keep their isk-making activities in highsec already.

I think the current system strikes a pretty good balance between not favoring the attacker or defender exclusively, while making both parties aware of the level of risk they're taking on in a general sense (by being able to see each other in local). The one downside the defender needs to worry about is "the metagame." This is pretty easily dealt with though by simply assuming that "the cloaker" is at-keyboard. Going out and mining in your Hulk, then dying and whining that "you didn't know it was risky because the hostile in local could have been AFK" is just dumb. You have local. You can see definitively that there is a dude in your system. All you need to do is plan accordingly and you'll be fine.

I guess I just fundamentally disagree with you about the metagaming aspect of cloaking. I think that the current mechanics allow a situation that maintains a pretty fair balance between attackers and defenders. Defenders gain the ability to know when they are and aren't at risk (AWOXers excluded). Attackers gain the ability to make defenders complacent by being patient. The part that really irritates me about people who complain about cloaking is that, at the end of the day, it's complacency that results in people dying to AFK cloakers. Nothing more. It irritates me when they try and foist the blame for their mistakes off on game mechanics.

I will give him this, technically he is right.

But like a few others, I feel in this case being balanced is not reflecting the best of both sides, but equally screwed up on both sides.

The last thing I want is for my mining ship to get popped. So I am willing to make the effort to avoid this.

But I respect that I should make an effort to guard my own safety, if in exchange it means that the cloaked ships can go play cat and mouse with each other and leave my mining alone.

Take em out of local, out of sight, out of mind.
Let them be hunted, and hunt me and my colleagues... I am confidant I can run faster than that other guy, so maybe I will have less competition too when they are done.

I don't want perfect safety, but I would not mind jumping into a ship to blast em a few times.

Nothing you've posted even remotely points to cloaks needing a change.

Cloaks can hide your ship from sensors, but isn't that the point of a cloak? They can't fully hide you outside of WH space of course.

Yes cloaked ships gather intel, strangely fulfilling their roll in the process.

Cloaked ships can attack Hulks and none PvP fit ships, but so can every other type of ship able to fit a weapon.
But then if there are hostiles in local, why are you mining in that hulk without protection and why are you ratting in a none PvP fit ship?

As far as cynos are concerned, if you have an issue with them then make a thread. Cloaks are not to blame for them opening a jump portal, nor are they responsible for bridging in more ships.

Plus I have to add. Your terrible Alliance buddies are not a reason for changing cloaks either, whether they care or not. But the fact you said they don't care, speaks volumes.

Nikk - Part 1: I am cool with dropping cloaked ships off local, provided the T2 probes you mention in part 2 come with it. I don't like the idea of automatic DScan (though perhaps someone from CCP can chime in and say whether or not the yarrsters really would suffer as badly as I think). Part 2: I dunno... if the cloaker can attack the probes, it might work out ok. Otherwise I think they'll end up shuttling between safes and getting generally ticked at the world instead of collecting intel or attacking people.

Strelsky - Agreed... a change to cloaking pretty much necessitates a change to local. Local was never meant to be an intel tool, but right now it's all folks have (in k-space, anyway). Maybe bringing back system scanning arrays in some form can replace the "at a glance" intel function of local.

Ganth - As long as we know where the disagreement lies, it makes it a lot easier to have a rational conversation, don't you think? ;) I find meta-gaming to be generally asinine. I wasn't too thrilled when Haargoth defected (IRON wanted BOB dead, but an honorable death), and the whole karttoon thing was just as bad. The 'mutual consent' thing to watchlists is something I'd cheer for in a half-heartbeat. Not sure that you'd lose all fights in 0.0 with an anti-cloak, as long as it's designed in a way that doesn't allow the locals to just spam the thing the way some fear my POS mod would. I'm just after a way to get rid of the meta-gamers. If you (or anyone else) wants my ship dead, it's going to die. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but sooner or later (probably sooner) someone's going to let the magic goop out, and I'll find myself in a new med clone.

Mag's - You're making me feel like CCP Sreegs... I've answered your question, you just don't like it. But hey, kills in Rancer are up 15% since some random time in the past, so the hunting's good, right? (What's a guy like you doing in an anticloak thread, anyway?)

Mary - "Out of sight, out of mind" is pretty much spot on... if they bears don't know they're there, or can trust that someone else is looking out for them (as much as you can trust anybody to do anything in this game), they'll get out there and do their thing. And maybe even die in a fire :)

Meolyne - What you quoted is really all that matters to me. Now it's just a question of how to make it happen without totally screwing up those who hunt with cloaks.

you identified their exact problem. Its not afk cloakers.

(Please forgive the length of this, I felt details were needed by some to illustrate the point.)

As to the grid thing, I understand D-Scans are based off distance, and are not grid-centric.

I see what you are getting at, and I think you have no reason to be concerned on the bomb assault side.
Local already has this effect on bombers, this on the other hand creates an opportunity for a defender to error in their attention, and create that opening. We do not ever want bombers to have an I-Win button of others not being able to guard against.

CCP has defined their position by example, in this case the means by which cloaks themselves operate.
They want you to perform tasks frequently, so you can make mistakes.
Now, CCP has also accepted that too much repetition by too many defeats the purpose, and takes away from gameplay. For example, we have a skill que to autoload skills for training, and no longer need to set each after the previous finishes.

A quick review: For most ships, assuming they wish to make sacrifices needed to mount the cloak, the cloak interferes with all systems in exchange for concealment. Can't warp, fire, lock targets, transfer cargo, gate travel, or dock in an outpost. With the exception of SB's, most ships used in combat have a secondary effect of a painful delay in targeting ability.

The Auto-D-Scan would not block warping, but it would toggle off when you did it.
The Auto-D-Scan would not block gate jumping, or other system changes, but it would toggle off when you did it.
With the exception of probing ships able to keep it on during in-system warps, the D-Scan will shut itself off if you do anything that moves you off grid.

It might be a compromise position that they put scanning on a timer, in addition to the above, based on a skill. (It would auto-cycle the scanner for 5 minutes per skill level maybe)

People just seem to forget the original reason for cloaking.

Someone wants the element of surprise, is willing to train for it extensively, and even use a ship with limited combat abilities.

Local absolutely denies this. But in a twisted yet balancing manner, the cloak is bizarrely also an absolute, not allowing any to locate those who use it correctly.

This means cloaking is broken, regarding it's original purpose of intent. What's left was an improvised meta-gaming tactic salvaged from the situation.

Fix cloaking.